If you don't know what BBrawl is, we're that unofficial balance patch project. No, we're not Brawl+ or any of those guys, and I'll shank anybody who asks. All we do is character rebalance, no changes to physics or hitbox size or any of that jazz. If you want a link, http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=246327
This isn't a spam or advertising post, Zelda is the *only* character getting this topic. Here's the situation:
Zelda has been a problem. Not a huge problem--we think she's close to good right now. The issue is that we don't know, because it's almost impossible to get good Zelda feedback. Zelda is one of the characters with very few strong mains, and I don't personally know *any* of them! Since Zelda has needed a lot of work on our end, that's an issue.
The story so far:
Regardless of how low you think Zelda actually is or isn't, one think has become clear: Zelda is the character most resistant to buffing in the game. You could double the damage on some of her moves, and she would still have the same problems--even Ganondorf is better in this regard!
The root of this seems to be that most of Zelda's moves are actually quite good, but only in a specific context. This seems to make the entire character end up predictable and with limited options, even if the pieces look good (or can be buffed to look good) individually. However, being BBrawl we are still trying to stick to original Brawl as much as possible. As a result, working on Zelda has been a lot of work:
F-tilt
Even as a non-Zelda main, it was obvious early on that Zelda struggled against shields and would need something fundamental to overcome this. After deciding it was the best place to try adding shield pressure, f-tilt's cooldown was speeded up to be about 10 frames less. This is a very big deal for us, because we really really don't like doing timing changes if we don't have to--we'd prefer to stick to damage and knockback where possible, in ways that do not require players to play any differently from normal Brawl. (That's really important to the idea of BBrawl...)
Anyway, f-tilt is now pretty safe on shield and sends enemies above Zelda, linking to u-smash. It's a legitimately good move and of great value to Zelda, the first big step towards improving her overall package.
Other Ground Moves
First we added a bit of extra knockback to d-smash. Then we made it (almost) impossible to SDI out u/f-smash. We also slightly raised the angle u-tilt hits at, so it kills slightly sooner and is less affected by DI.
The knockback of jab was adjusted, and extra shield damage was added. This made jab even better on shields, and made it almost combo into f-tilt tipper. As sort of an easter egg we've also always had Zelda's jab as flower element, which ends up doing an extra point of damage sometimes. (Cooties?)
Farore's Wind
The first part of Farore's Wind is a little stronger, so it will send enemies into the second part at damage levels around ~100%. The second part now spikes, and given 2 frames of intangibility to prevent clashing. Hitting someone on-stage with this would bounce them into a u-smash or u-tilt, which is pretty fun.
Misc.
Most attempts to improve any of Zelda's aerials ended up stupid, changed them too much, or both. We did however add 2% damage to nair. Finally, we gave a small knockback increase to b-throw.
So with all this Zelda was pretty decent; a viable character by herself and more able to get easy kills on 100% opponents if coming in from Sheik. However, our collected data showed that on average Zelda was considered the worst character in BBrawl by some slight margins.
Where we're going from here:
I have two big concerns with Zelda right now that I can't resolve without expertise.
D-tilt
Zelda's d-tilt is a problem move. In BBrawl we like to fix crappy moves that are unsafe on hit, and annoyingly good moves that combo into themselves. D-tilt is both.
Assuming we succeed in making Zelda a solid character, d-tilt linking into itself can't stay. The current version of Zelda d-tilt I'm testing has a consistent 4f advantage at all enemy weights and %s--one frame too slow to combo into itself. Frankly, like this it's not a very good move other than the tripping chance. (Note that like this it doesn't pop up at higher %s either.) I really don't know of a solution that would make Zelda happy without making the move really frustrating to fight. Increased trip chance? *Always* pop enemies up? What do you guys think about this?
Nayru's Love
A ton of people have bugged us to somehow buff Din's Fire throughout development; this isn't really a viable path, because by nature of the move it's doomed to be very matchup biased and annoying. Meanwhile, I always considered Nayru's Love fertile ground for helping Zelda--when it was agreed that Zelda needed significant further help this version, I set out to make Nayru's Love useful and awesome.
For the last public release I made Nayru's Love hit inward and freeze. That was reallyawesome stupid. Back to the drawing board.
After a few experiments, I settled on something subtle but drastic: Zelda retains horizontal control during Nayru's Love. This means that while the blue crystal is visible, Zelda can slide left and right. (Ground or air) She retains the momentum, and can interrupt most of the ending lag with aerials, ground attacks, or a grab. The max total slide distance forward is almost half of FD; the max backwards is about a quarter. Nayru's Love still breaks vertical momentum in the air, and the aerial slide very slightly decreases her fall speed.
The move currently still hits inward, usually dealing anywhere from 6-16%. It launches them upwards a modest amount at the end--not terribly advantageous, but a decent reward for hitting. I'll try and get a video of this up soon.
This new Nayru's Love feels fun to use, and gives Zelda some actual mobility without changing her existing physics. I am hopeful that it turns out to be just what Zelda needs, but can't say for sure. Sliding Nayru's Love: Does it address Zelda's matchup issues?
Suggestions on Feedback
Working on this project has taught me a lot about how to most effectively gather input and feedback on issues. The best feedback is identifying and analyzing problems, not soliciting suggestions. (Luckily the Zelda community is tightly knit and friendly, so we won't have to deal with random people demanding Move X be made super awesome.)
What issues does Zelda face that the current changes might not fully address? Are there any problem matchups that do not gain enough benefit? Are there any matchups that are at risk of becoming too good for Zelda? Does the Nayru's Love change fit into her playstyle well? And what do we need to keep in mind when considering d-tilt?
Any discussion would be great, and I also invite anyone to simply download and offer your first-hand Zelda impressions, especially concerning Nayru's Love. (YOU DO NOT NEED A HACKED WII TO LOAD BBRAWL, JUST AN SD CARD!) Zelda is pretty much the last character to evaluate before our next final release, so I'm hopeful that we can get her in the right place here.
Thanks for reading!
This isn't a spam or advertising post, Zelda is the *only* character getting this topic. Here's the situation:
Zelda has been a problem. Not a huge problem--we think she's close to good right now. The issue is that we don't know, because it's almost impossible to get good Zelda feedback. Zelda is one of the characters with very few strong mains, and I don't personally know *any* of them! Since Zelda has needed a lot of work on our end, that's an issue.
The story so far:
Regardless of how low you think Zelda actually is or isn't, one think has become clear: Zelda is the character most resistant to buffing in the game. You could double the damage on some of her moves, and she would still have the same problems--even Ganondorf is better in this regard!
The root of this seems to be that most of Zelda's moves are actually quite good, but only in a specific context. This seems to make the entire character end up predictable and with limited options, even if the pieces look good (or can be buffed to look good) individually. However, being BBrawl we are still trying to stick to original Brawl as much as possible. As a result, working on Zelda has been a lot of work:
F-tilt
Even as a non-Zelda main, it was obvious early on that Zelda struggled against shields and would need something fundamental to overcome this. After deciding it was the best place to try adding shield pressure, f-tilt's cooldown was speeded up to be about 10 frames less. This is a very big deal for us, because we really really don't like doing timing changes if we don't have to--we'd prefer to stick to damage and knockback where possible, in ways that do not require players to play any differently from normal Brawl. (That's really important to the idea of BBrawl...)
Anyway, f-tilt is now pretty safe on shield and sends enemies above Zelda, linking to u-smash. It's a legitimately good move and of great value to Zelda, the first big step towards improving her overall package.
Other Ground Moves
First we added a bit of extra knockback to d-smash. Then we made it (almost) impossible to SDI out u/f-smash. We also slightly raised the angle u-tilt hits at, so it kills slightly sooner and is less affected by DI.
The knockback of jab was adjusted, and extra shield damage was added. This made jab even better on shields, and made it almost combo into f-tilt tipper. As sort of an easter egg we've also always had Zelda's jab as flower element, which ends up doing an extra point of damage sometimes. (Cooties?)
Farore's Wind
The first part of Farore's Wind is a little stronger, so it will send enemies into the second part at damage levels around ~100%. The second part now spikes, and given 2 frames of intangibility to prevent clashing. Hitting someone on-stage with this would bounce them into a u-smash or u-tilt, which is pretty fun.
Misc.
Most attempts to improve any of Zelda's aerials ended up stupid, changed them too much, or both. We did however add 2% damage to nair. Finally, we gave a small knockback increase to b-throw.
So with all this Zelda was pretty decent; a viable character by herself and more able to get easy kills on 100% opponents if coming in from Sheik. However, our collected data showed that on average Zelda was considered the worst character in BBrawl by some slight margins.
Where we're going from here:
I have two big concerns with Zelda right now that I can't resolve without expertise.
D-tilt
Zelda's d-tilt is a problem move. In BBrawl we like to fix crappy moves that are unsafe on hit, and annoyingly good moves that combo into themselves. D-tilt is both.
Assuming we succeed in making Zelda a solid character, d-tilt linking into itself can't stay. The current version of Zelda d-tilt I'm testing has a consistent 4f advantage at all enemy weights and %s--one frame too slow to combo into itself. Frankly, like this it's not a very good move other than the tripping chance. (Note that like this it doesn't pop up at higher %s either.) I really don't know of a solution that would make Zelda happy without making the move really frustrating to fight. Increased trip chance? *Always* pop enemies up? What do you guys think about this?
Nayru's Love
A ton of people have bugged us to somehow buff Din's Fire throughout development; this isn't really a viable path, because by nature of the move it's doomed to be very matchup biased and annoying. Meanwhile, I always considered Nayru's Love fertile ground for helping Zelda--when it was agreed that Zelda needed significant further help this version, I set out to make Nayru's Love useful and awesome.
For the last public release I made Nayru's Love hit inward and freeze. That was really
After a few experiments, I settled on something subtle but drastic: Zelda retains horizontal control during Nayru's Love. This means that while the blue crystal is visible, Zelda can slide left and right. (Ground or air) She retains the momentum, and can interrupt most of the ending lag with aerials, ground attacks, or a grab. The max total slide distance forward is almost half of FD; the max backwards is about a quarter. Nayru's Love still breaks vertical momentum in the air, and the aerial slide very slightly decreases her fall speed.
The move currently still hits inward, usually dealing anywhere from 6-16%. It launches them upwards a modest amount at the end--not terribly advantageous, but a decent reward for hitting. I'll try and get a video of this up soon.
This new Nayru's Love feels fun to use, and gives Zelda some actual mobility without changing her existing physics. I am hopeful that it turns out to be just what Zelda needs, but can't say for sure. Sliding Nayru's Love: Does it address Zelda's matchup issues?
Suggestions on Feedback
Working on this project has taught me a lot about how to most effectively gather input and feedback on issues. The best feedback is identifying and analyzing problems, not soliciting suggestions. (Luckily the Zelda community is tightly knit and friendly, so we won't have to deal with random people demanding Move X be made super awesome.)
What issues does Zelda face that the current changes might not fully address? Are there any problem matchups that do not gain enough benefit? Are there any matchups that are at risk of becoming too good for Zelda? Does the Nayru's Love change fit into her playstyle well? And what do we need to keep in mind when considering d-tilt?
Any discussion would be great, and I also invite anyone to simply download and offer your first-hand Zelda impressions, especially concerning Nayru's Love. (YOU DO NOT NEED A HACKED WII TO LOAD BBRAWL, JUST AN SD CARD!) Zelda is pretty much the last character to evaluate before our next final release, so I'm hopeful that we can get her in the right place here.
Thanks for reading!
