Improved Momentum Canceling

[Le_THieN]

I've been lurking on the Zelda Forums again the last couple of days since Kataeafi asked us to drop by and offer some input on the Zelda/Diddy match-up. Last night, I ran into one of their threads linking this interesting video by the famous innocentroads:

• Reverse Nayru's Momentum Canceling

Basically, instead of using your quickest aerial attack and then expending your double jump to reverse the momentum on your knock-back, you actually B-reverse your neutral-B in order to achieve a shift in momentum comparable to or greater than that which you would receive with a normal double jump.

The instant advantage in doing a B-reversal first as opposed to immediately double-jumping is that you actually get an extra horizontal boost added to your normal recovery patterns. Additionally, if you quickly manage to activate your B-reversal momentum cancel before you die off the side in order to save yourself, many characters would actually be able to preserve their double jump in order to time, space or mix up their recoveries more effectively.

In Zelda's particular case, her sequence of inputs after being hit toward a horizontal blast zone are as follows:

1. use her quickest aerial attack (B-air)
2. immediately B-reverse her neutral-B (Nayru's Love) during earliest available frames
3. double jump
4. expend up-B (Farore's Wind)

The only thing I observed that might be somewhat troublesome for Zelda whenever she does this is that her Nayru's Love may sometimes seems to last long enough to significantly diminish the vertical height of her recovery.

Cue Diddy Kong: how much does he have to benefit from this?

Obviously, I haven't had the chance to test this myself since I'm asking this question (although I'll get back to you all later today with some results).

In my head, Diddy Kong's modified recovery sequence would look something like this:

1. B-air
2. B-reverse Peanut Popgun
3. instantly aerial-cancel with Z, L or R (i.e. any shield or grab button)
4. fast-fall (depending on how close you are to being KOed off the top)
5. Monkey Flip
6. double jump
7. Rocket Barrel Blast

The main thing I would like to draw attention to is Diddy's ability to instantly cancel the Peanut Popgun in the air. This sequence would conceivably allow him to be one of the characters to get to his double jump the quickest (assuming this technique works with Diddy, although I can't imagine why it wouldn't).

I'm fairly certain I would have never thought of this technique myself; I most commonly deploy B-reversals out of smashed Monkey Flips (with a banana peel in my hand) towards my opponents in order to fake an approach and bait a reaction. This means that I will inevitably face the direction that I am reversing momentum in. It never once occurred to me that you can still use B-reversals regardless of the direction you are facing.

Interestingly enough, this also opens up some new mix-up possibilities on stage with B-reversing into retreating Peanut Popguns out of RARed B-airs, or out of a backwards jump or short hop in general.

Anyway, I will mess around with this in a couple of hours and get back to you guys with what I'm able to find.

Thoughts?

 

[Bellioes]

Sounds cool, it looks a lot like bucket braking without the vertical momentum cancelling part. Unless b-reversing cancels even vertical momentum too though it didnt look like that in the video.

I didnt understand something at the end. We can reverse momentum in the direction were facing? I was always under the impression that you couldnt b-reverse peanut cancel in the air unless you were drifitng in the same direction you are facing (meaning youre b-reversing in the opposite direction you are facing).

 

[Le_THieN]

I didnt understand something at the end. We can reverse momentum in the direction were facing? I was always under the impression that you couldnt b-reverse peanut cancel in the air unless you were drifitng in the same direction you are facing (meaning youre b-reversing in the opposite direction you are facing).

LOL, no. I knew this would be confusing. It's my fault for phrasing it somewhat poorly.

To clarify: the direction you are facing has absolutely no correlation on which direction you reverse momentum in once you do a B-reversal. The only thing that matters is the direction you are traveling in once you actually activate the B-reversal.

With the way I have been using B-reversals, it has always made me face the direction that the technique was forcing the change of trajectory in. Based on this, I (wrongly) assumed you could not face the opposite direction of the reversal.

The neat thing about being able to manipulate which direction you face upon landing after a B-reversal is that is simply gives you a different set of options. The first scenario that comes to mind is SH double B-air. By this point in the game, many people have probably realized that back-to-back B-airs are actually not guaranteed, and will probably shield-grab you out of your second B-air attempt. With being able to do a B-reversal with my back turned, I can reverse my momentum the opposite direction, avoid the shield grab, and automatically begin using my popgun defensively. Alternatively, I could just represent surprise aggression by doing a Monkey Hump after a bait a shield grab.

Y'know. Small things like that.

For the record, B-reversing in any direction despite the direction you are facing was probably out in the open months ago. I'm not claiming credit for anything, but I am taking this opportunity to explore different avenues and options that this presents.

 

[Kaptain Kong]

i've always thought about b-reversal recoveries, but not for momentum canceling

so b-reversal works anytime you're moving in the air? which way does it boost you if you b-reversal while facing the opposite direction you're moving?

 

[TreK]

Woot at this actually being tested. Looks like people are more interested when you're named Le_THieN tho. But no more whining as I'm not that kind of guy usually.

I still have no clue whether it's better than our regular strat or not, as I've said for four months, because I can't test it by myself. I need a 2nd pair of hands =/

@ KK there are lots of variations to the B reversal. I just wrote a whole paragraph about it, but it was more confusing than clarifying. Test it out yourself to get the feeling, seriously =/

I've been trying to implement that in my Luigi game for a couple weeks, and when I say implement I mean focusing my fireball game around these techs. As he has the worst horizontal air speed in the game, I have no doubt this will be useful as Diddy =P

 

[Player-1]

I had this same EXACT idea back a few months, ago, but I think I ended up thinking what Bellioes thought and didn't even give it a chance, but I don't remember.

 

[AlAxe]

This does work but the button input is a bit more difficult than a normal b reversal. Essentially you're doing a regular turn around b move but then reversing it again with a b reversal. It goes like push joystick away from stage -> neutral b -> push joystick toward stage. This does seem like it could be very useful. The only drawback I see is that it's pretty hard to pull off and if you mess it up you could die when you otherwise would have survived.

 

[Bellioes]

But you dont have to do a turnaround B.
Le_THieN explained it in his second post; the direction youre facing doesnt matter. Its the direction that you are drifting in that matters. So when you get hit, even though youre facing away from the blastzone, youre still drifting that way. When you b-reverse, youll reverse your momentum (away from the blastzone) but you will change directions too (youll be facing towards the blastzone). You dont need to face the same direction you are drifting before you can b-reverse.

 

[Player-1]

But you dont have to do a turnaround B.
Le_THieN explained it in his second post; the direction youre facing doesnt matter. Its the direction that you are drifting in that matters. So when you get hit, even though youre facing away from the blastzone, youre still drifting that way. When you b-reverse, youll reverse your momentum (away from the blastzone) but you will change directions too (youll be facing towards the blastzone). You dont need to face the same direction you are drifting before you can b-reverse.

yeah I know, that's what I was saying...

 

[Bellioes]

I was talking about AlAxe`s post

 

[Kataefi]

Hi guys... I've been trying this out. I don't really think it works for Diddy... however I did notice that his monkey flip kick seemed to halt momentum somewhat better than a DJ, but he loses his up b. An empty monkey flip (no kick) is also better than a DJ.

However, I do encourage you all to go out and test this out because I don't properly main diddy, but as far as the peanut gun is concerned I got better results simply jumping to cancel momentum.

edit:: to test this effectively make a perfect control stage much like innocentroads' very large stage and have ganon jab you around 200% and watch the effects of all the different momentum cancels. Monkey flip is definitely the best option so far from what I've noticed.

 

[iDeo]

Hmm. It seems useful but it looks like it just requires to much effort rather than just doing ur fastest aerial and then jumping to cancel momentum.

In all honesty, putting in this much effort in recovering is asking for quick death if you ask me, let alone I'm having a hard time trying to understand how this form of momentum canceling works after Le_Thien explained it.

Revised after looking at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6V4HDXpFIo video.

Ok now i see how this workz. But seeing as most of the Brawl tourney stages we play on are fairly small (except Pokemon Stadium 1), how would you let alone anyone be able to pull this off as soon as they get hit and heading towards the blast line. This momentum canceling is more like a lucky shot to me otherwise ending in losing a stock.

 

[SuSa]

@ Above post:

"Brawl: Where tech skill is for scrubs"

This isn't hard, although I'm starting to think it doesn't work. I'll test it a bit after I hook up my wii and test a few other things as well.

iDeo:
He's saying you can b-reverse no matter what direction you are facing, you just B-reverse your momentum. If you hit B, then quickly tap the other direction (if you are moving forwards, with your momentum) you will see it. This can be done if your moving backwards (facing backwards compared to your momentum) that's all Le_Thien is explaining.

 

[iDeo]

Thanx for explaining, and I revised my previous post regarding this before you posted, lol. But thanx for explaining anyway, lol. I get the tech. now.

 

[SuSa]

You updated 5 minutes after I posted. Your welcome.

EDIT:
Regarding your edit, this can be used at any %.. it doesn't have to be a super large stage at stupidly high percents (190%)



Also unlike Nayru's if you **** up your B-reversal it won't kill you sooner.

 

[iDeo]

You updated 5 minutes after I posted. Your welcome.

EDIT:
Regarding your edit, this can be used at any %.. it doesn't have to be a super large stage at stupidly high percents (190%)



Also unlike Nayru's if you **** up your B-reversal it won't kill you sooner.

Susa if u only knew. I'm running on dial-up internet man which is lame as hell, so it would take my post a while to finish. lol

Sure it can be used at any percent but why put in this much effort just to recover to the stage. Eventually it'll get to the point where ur opponent will chase or attempt to chase u off the stage to kill u faster, let alone this sets up for characters that can gimp very well (Kirby in particular) or possibly a spike.

But I guess I have to look at it as a situational thing.

 

[SuSa]

It's not much slower then your normal MC, and it doesn't seem to help AS MUCH (it won't have the huge affect that Zelda's had. If anything it's a very minor boost that could mean the difference between life and death) meaning unless your opponent is chasing you or spiking you already - this won't make it any different.

Nothing is "too much effort" to do in Brawl. Besides possibly Yoshi's Draconic Reverse and Sheik's DACUS (which I can do both rather consistantly... and Sheik's DACUS is far easier then Yoshi's DR)

Now things in Melee... those were hard...to the point where I can't even SHFFL anymore. :/

 

[iDeo]

Hmm...good point. lol

 

[LanceStern]

Howw reasonable is this for samus? It seems like you don't have enough time.

I JUST asked if this was possible in the samus boards before stumbling ont his topic. Seems like everyone has the same mind

 

[SuSa]

How would I test it for Samus?

As for Diddy, the difference is negligible from my testing.....the B-reverse just doesn't cancel enough momentum.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

It is just better to MC with >b after a FF'd bair. It basically puts all your momentum back towards the stage, much like pikachu's skull bash. It is still the best option, and it definitely helps more than this.

 

[iDeo]

In a way this could just be more character specific. As the video showed it workz pretty good for Zelda, similarly it looks like it'll be good for those whose neutral B's don't leave them in jeopardy and gives them a defensive edge. Like if it workz for Mario, his fireball will serve as a buffer; Wolf's gun will give him a horizontal recovery boost; and Lucario's Aura sphere would do the same for wolf and possibly kill if he's taken a lot of damage.

Of course characters like Oli wouldn't benefit from this at all seeing as his neutral B simply picks pikmin.

 

[Bellioes]

I didnt get what you were trying to say. What do you mean Marios fireball will serve as a buffer?

And what do you mean by 'Lucarios Aura Sphere would do the same for wolf and possibly kill if hes taken a lot of damage'?

 

[iDeo]

I didnt get what you were trying to say. What do you mean Marios fireball will serve as a buffer?

And what do you mean by 'Lucarios Aura Sphere would do the same for wolf and possibly kill if hes taken a lot of damage'?

Ok...we deduced that the momentum canceling can help you get back on the stage by sending you towards the stage rite.

So if it works for Mario, like it does for Zelda in the video, his neutral B would be used for defensive purposes as he approaches the stage because of the momentum canceling.

Likewise it'll do the same for Lucario in the sense that his Aura Sphere will be used for defense as well when he's coming towards the stage to recover b/c of the MC.

 

[LanceStern]

SuSa, if Samus was holding a fully charged plasma shot (neutral B) would it be effective?

And are we talking about B reverse where you hit B FIRST and then quickly hit the analog stick in the opposite direction?

Or are we talking about a B reverse where you're in the air, hit the analog in the opposite direction you're facing FIRST then hit B?

Would a fully charged plasma shot work well in cancelling horizontal momentum? I've been trying it in matches versus CPUs but when I use her fastest aerial (uair) I'm already dead before I can activate the neutral B

 

[iDeo]

And are we talking about B reverse where you hit B FIRST and then quickly hit the analog stick in the opposite direction?

We're talkin about this one. But i think if we keep talkin about, ppl will get it confused with the B-reversal. lol

And it should follow the same principles as long as ur doin the inputs right. Have you tested it yet Lanstern.

 

[SuSa]

I don't think a lot of you understand why it works for Zelda...

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

No they don't, and i can't really explain it...

 

[SuSa]

Laymans terms:

Zelda's B Special affects her momentum - with or without a B-reversal. It just so happens B-reversing it reverses her momentum by a large amount.

Diddy Kong's B Special doesn't really affect momentum until charged to a good amount - and even though you can cancel it almost immediately, the small boost you get from B-reversing your special just isn't as help as side-B or jumping.

 

[Bellioes]

@iDeo

Mario/Lucario/Wolf cant use this for defensive purposes because their neutral Bs don`t hit behind them. When you B-reverse after getting hit like in the video, youll get a boose towards the stage as you said (because of the B-reversal`s momentum reversing property), but... you will be facing backwards. The Fireball/Aura Sphere/Energy Bullet would come out the wrong way.

 

[iDeo]

@iDeo

Mario/Lucario/Wolf cant use this for defensive purposes because their neutral Bs don`t hit behind them. When you B-reverse after getting hit like in the video, youll get a boose towards the stage as you said (because of the B-reversal`s momentum reversing property), but... you will be facing backwards. The Fireball/Aura Sphere/Energy Bullet would come out the wrong way.

Oh ok. I got ya now.

So as i said earlier itz more than likely a character specific thing for those characters who have an advantageous use for it rather than just for MC.

 

[Le_THieN]

So I tested this for about ten minutes at a Smash-fest yesterday, and yielded lackluster results. =(

I'll play around it some more tonight before I close the file on it, though.