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- Thread starter Ch0zen0ne
- Start date
Mmac
Smash Lord
Sorry, it just happens >_>
Drakkhonian
Smash Rookie
Exactaly my point Kress.
We should stop asking if yoshi is the best to actaully making something to show people hes at least good.
Resuming the while thread:
LET'S MAKE A YOSHI GUILD!!!!
(Dreamer yes, but thats the point of this thread)
We should stop asking if yoshi is the best to actaully making something to show people hes at least good.
Resuming the while thread:
LET'S MAKE A YOSHI GUILD!!!!
(Dreamer yes, but thats the point of this thread)
Drakkhonian
Smash Rookie
I think it should be by test Marik.
I mean, it shouldn't be anyone that should represent yoshi on a guild like that.
And we still should open space for people in potential, so I think testing people, recording the fight and analising if he should get in is the most wise approach. Of course all the "masters/teachers" should have a voting or something.
And cause the guild ain't made yet (I think) we should decide who the first masters should be.
And in the case someone alrady made this guild, please let me and Marik know: Obviously we want to participate!
I mean, it shouldn't be anyone that should represent yoshi on a guild like that.
And we still should open space for people in potential, so I think testing people, recording the fight and analising if he should get in is the most wise approach. Of course all the "masters/teachers" should have a voting or something.
And cause the guild ain't made yet (I think) we should decide who the first masters should be.
And in the case someone alrady made this guild, please let me and Marik know: Obviously we want to participate!
Ryusuta
Smash Master
Since using one single move became predictable.
Since Egg Toss games, dash-grabbing, neutral air, and simply NOT approaching started to exist.
Not all of his ground attacks do. Actually, outside of his throws, smashes (except down), up tilt, and possibly forward tilt, I'm not sure which ground attacks you're referring to.
Than SOME other characters, I'd certainly concede. Though that's not much of a statement to make.
Correction: If you're ONLY using Yoshi in the air, you're arbitrarily limiting yourself and making yourself very predictable.
*Looks at down tilt* Umm... no.
I'm saying that your options tend to outweigh theirs and that even high-class players think FAR too little of Yoshi's recovery. I'm not saying that you will never, ever get punished on the way back to the stage, I'm saying that it's extraordinarily hard to keep Yoshi off the stage.
And let's not get into anecdotal evidence, if you please.
Oh, and let's avoid unnecessary insults/ancient fads when you clearly have nothing more valid to say, thanks.
Okay, let's look at this for a second. Say I'm Yoshi and I'm recovering back to the stage. Now you're... say... Marth, and you want to make sure I don't get back. (If you want a different character in this example, be my guest). Now, we'll even give you the benefit of the doubt and say I'm recovering around the same level as the stage (presumably from a forward air at high percent), which is one of Yoshi's worst recovery positions.
Now, bearing in mind Marth's own air speed and air-to-air options, what do you intend to do to stop Yoshi from getting back. I already know that you'd want nothing more than to down air/footstool me, so of course I'm going to go high. Now, you're already going to either be chasing me out of the stage or waiting for me to return, so let's assume you're chasing. You've really got a handful of options at this point that COULD net a kill while still allowing you to recover - forward air, neutral air, back air, and a shallow Dolphin Blow. Now, tell me what you do to gimp me in this situation, WITHOUT giving me enough time to react to what your doing.
When you're done attacking my strawman over there, let me know so we can get back to the discussion at hand. I NEVER said that it's impossible to gimp Yoshi. NOT ONCE.
You need to chill out there, hoss. You're getting all uptight here and there's no need for that. You said - and I quote:
Which I take to mean you believe this aspect to stand out about all of his other aspects. This directly contradicts what you said about none of his aspects standing out. Unless you're speaking generally, which you didn't indicate and wasn't implied. Don't blame me if you don't finish your own statements, please.
Ch0zen0ne
Smash Lord
For Sparta?
Ryusuta
Smash Master
SPAARTAAAAAAAA! *Kick*
As far as I know, eggs have enough ending lag when you're approaching that they aren't really that feasible.
Thoughts on the seven:
MetaKnight: He outranges you everywhere except for grabs.
Snake: Has good range/priority. Grabs actually outrange him on the ground but approaching him is a bit of an issue since mines and nades shut down your ground approach, and ftilt beats bair. He shouldn't be going aerial anyway.
Game&Watch: Egg lay ftw?
Dedede: Aerial priority sucks, since he can beat you in almost all directions. Fortunately, he's almost as punishable as Ike with his aerial attacks.
Falco: Horizontally, you're screwed because of his reflector. Vertically you're even, at least when he's grounded.
-ROB: Fair is murder. Uair is pretty bad. Everything else hurts, but is punishable.
-Marth: Outranges you, pretty much constantly. You can't really deny this one.
All other ranged grab characters can perform a pivot just as quickly as Yoshi can.
My point with the Kirby example is that, when people know your options, they learn how to stop them. Yoshi's biggest selling point right now (besides the whole MK thing) is that most people don't know how to play against him, and once they bother learning, we're all in for a world of hurt.
Again, sorry to be so pessimistic. I just don't want the whole "we're awesome and we don't have to justify it" vibe coming in here.
And when do we start talking about the GUILD? That's the reason why this topic was made on the first place :D! Or maybe I'm not as good at english and I've just messed up everything D:!
Anyways, for these discussions, there is a sticky thread called "weekly character discussion", As the elitists didn't say anything out of his AT game, you guys should consider posting there
!
Anyways, for these discussions, there is a sticky thread called "weekly character discussion", As the elitists didn't say anything out of his AT game, you guys should consider posting there
!
ROOOOY!
Smash Master
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This thread is funny shit. I though Ch0zen was toying with these Yoshi mains when I first started reading, but seemingly not o_0.
I will never understand this grabbing business. He's got a grab release on many characters, right? Good players avoid getting grabbed. What then? Yoshi's left to his slightly above average air game and sub-par ground game.
I don't understand all this commotion on Yoshi all of a sudden. Sure, he's better then 6th bottom like he's been put on that tier list, but I actually loled (because I thought OP was joking) when high tier was mentioned.
*injects anti-stupid virus into smashboards*
Soon enough Ice Climbers are going to be top tier because of their grabs right?
I will never understand this grabbing business. He's got a grab release on many characters, right? Good players avoid getting grabbed. What then? Yoshi's left to his slightly above average air game and sub-par ground game.
I don't understand all this commotion on Yoshi all of a sudden. Sure, he's better then 6th bottom like he's been put on that tier list, but I actually loled (because I thought OP was joking) when high tier was mentioned.
*injects anti-stupid virus into smashboards*
Soon enough Ice Climbers are going to be top tier because of their grabs right?
WRONG!
Thank you, we're always welcoming any mainers who wants to post their oppinion here.
Well, He's certainly not High tier until we start moving to higher positions on tournaments, that's what makes the SBR looks at any character, and that's the way that character improves. So what we are triyng to do here is to create a Guild to move ourselves to tourneys and therefore make yoshi go higher in the rankings.
Grab release is great, but as you said, that alone won't ever make yoshi go high on tier lists. But we want to see "wich other options do we have"? Firstly, we have to take all the options we have, secondly, we have to search for more options, and finally, we have to put all of that thogether so we dont become predictable.
Of course, some of our mayor advantages are that NO ONE is used to deal with EXPERIENCED yoshis, so almost no one is familiarized with the matchup. But as this situaion progresses, we'll eventualy lose that position, and we have to make sure that we get to learn what we can do when people get used to fight against us.
This isn't a discussion saying "YOSHI GOD TIER FTW HANDS DOWN ASSADSDAS", it's just that we want to create a guild, that's it..
Ch0zen0ne
Smash Lord
Good Players can land grabs..
For Sparta.
For Sparta.
Splitting up every sentence =/= win.
Ftilt, dtilt, utilt, usmash, jab, egg toss, downB at lower percents, egg roll at higher percents, uthrow, bthrow, fthrow. Every other ground attack CAN lead to an aerial attack but either has too much knockback to be followed up, doesn't get followed up because it's just a bad move (dthrow), or is too weird to be measured this way (egg lay).
There's definitely a difference between saying that a character focuses on an aspect of their game, and saying that character is awesome at that aspect of their game. I don't see how you could miss this, it's blatantly obvious.
Game over. Would you like to try again? Please don't.
Just because it's predictable doesn't mean it's not useful, especially when the duration of the move is longer than most spotdodges. And it's not like it's the ONLY move you use, you're taking my words far too literally.
But are we talking about not approaching? No, we're talking about approaching. Grabs are also much easier to dodge and punish than bair is. Neutral air has limited range and can therefore be beaten by many characters.
Here's a tentative list of what ground attacks lead into aerial attacks:
Ftilt, dtilt, utilt, usmash, jab, egg toss, downB at lower percents, egg roll at higher percents, uthrow, bthrow, fthrow. Every other ground attack CAN lead to an aerial attack but either has too much knockback to be followed up, doesn't get followed up because it's just a bad move (dthrow), or is too weird to be measured this way (egg lay).
Yeah, okay. I think someone needs to be reminded that Brawl is very aerial-based, with the exception of camping.
Because I totally said that I'm only using Yoshi in the air. Please read, okay?
The alternate universe where dtilt outranges grabs must be pretty nice.
Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about when you clearly don't have a clue.
Thanks, Sir Orion, for correcting Sir Orion for me.
*facepalm*
There's definitely a difference between saying that a character focuses on an aspect of their game, and saying that character is awesome at that aspect of their game. I don't see how you could miss this, it's blatantly obvious.
Game over. Would you like to try again? Please don't.
Ch0zen0ne
Smash Lord
The Yoshi community must be very bored to all come here to flame each other...
For Sparta.
For Sparta.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Yes lets stop, But I'm going to argue on Roy now
The primary difference between Yoshi's grabs and someone else's grabs is that Yoshi's Pivot Grab is up there as one of the best grabs in the game. It completely stops cold tons of approaches, no matter if it's in the air or on the ground, and it has the speed of a standard melee based grab. There's a huge difference between Yoshi and everyone else. Even top players like Overswarm can't avoid my grab most of the time.
bigman40
Smash Master
I do find it ironic that we begin to argue as soon as you post "yoshi for high tier" and such. Yoshi COULD make it that high, IF we can get there. How bout everyone stop whining to each other about yoshi (as everyone has a different opinion), and work to push yoshi's abilities.
I agree with what you say, Scat, but it's important to know the limits of your character. Working around these weaknesses produces results, but simply ignoring them will only hurt Yoshi in the long run. That's all I'm saying (over and over...).
@ ch0zen: No one ever comes on the Yoshi boards. Who else would we flame?
@ ch0zen: No one ever comes on the Yoshi boards. Who else would we flame?
And why can't everyone just accept that? I mean geez, you can be optimistic or pessimistic, but we can't get ANYWHERE just by discussing, let's ShakeItBab..... <___< Er, I mean, let's just start organizing.
EDTI:
@Kiwi: Right, let's check the character's limits, I think that's what we want to discuss about when we start organizing. This will be something as a YBR (Yoshi Back Room) right? XD!
But I do think as you, we don't have to overrate the character, let's just avoid over/under rating him ok?
@ ch0zen: For Spartahhh! <_<
DarkLeviathan89
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2007
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- 1,732
I agree with Kiwi. Yoshi has flaws, and as much as I and all of us I'm sure try to work around them, we still need to be aware of them. And yeah, this arguing and bickering probably won't help us, but working on getting more tourney results will.
It's good that we have a lot of knowledge about Yoshi, and we should continue learning whatever we can. However, we still have to put that knowledge to good use.
It's good that we have a lot of knowledge about Yoshi, and we should continue learning whatever we can. However, we still have to put that knowledge to good use.
ROOOOY!
Smash Master
- Joined
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- Lincolnshire, England.
- NNID
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I know Yoshi has a good grab, I just think it's usefulness is extremely character specific.
I'll use Fox as an example here. He functions well by at first getting close to the character and then popping them in the air and drilling them back down or whatever. One problem is he has to be at CLOSE range, like close enough range to get grabbed, and the other problem is that all of his approaches are very commited and if the Foxs misjudges how it's going to happen or gets read easily then he's getting eaten by Yoshi. Basically, his approaches are high risk because they are massively commited.
To counter-act that, I think I'll hold up my main as an example. Sonic, like Fox, works on a close(ish) range game. Here's where he differs though, HE CAN CANCEL EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS APPROACHES. He's not going to cancel every single one, obviously, but as soon as that Yoshi goes for a pivot grab and Sonic shield cancels that Spindash Yoshi is going to get punished. As we all know, defensively I think it's fair to say Yoshi's pretty poor. Once Sonic's capatilized on this Yoshi's over eagerness on the grabbing part, Sonic will hassle him up close, and I can't really see how Yoshi will deal with it. If Sonic pops him into the air, he can juggle with uair (outranges dair I believe) and if Yoshi tries a Yoshi Bomb (down B lol) I can just airdodge and do a very lagless nair for 11%. On the ground, Sonic can go kick him around spacing with tilts (Sonic's range really isn't that bad >_>).
But yeah, the general point is that it's going to affect some characters like Fox or Ike pretty badly, while characters who are never fully commited to their approach like Sonic and a few others.
Naucitos
Smash Journeyman
I'm actually a bit confused here, what exactly is this thread for, and what would said guild entail?
Ryusuta
Smash Master
So far the thread seems to be for Kiwi making ad hominem attacks because he doesn't have a point to make. *Shrugs*
Mmac
Smash Lord
I have alot to say, but just screw it. Lets just get on with the guild. No more of this crap
D
Deleted member
Guest
Sonic is one of the few(maybe 3) who is hard to get a grab on.
Also, yoshis grab molests olimar.
Also, yoshis grab molests olimar.
Scarlet Jile
Smash Lord
There's really no lag on a pivot-grab though, that was basically the whole point of using it in the first place.
If you miss, you can still react in most cases.
If you miss, you can still react in most cases.
ROOOOY!
Smash Master
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That was totally worthy of a post.
I'm keeping an eye on this guild thing.
No offence to anyone here at all because I'm glad this community is finding stuff out for their main and helping him progress, but this all feels like the guns being jumped a bit.
High tier is madness. If we're looking at the current high tier, that's putting him in the ranks of Kirby and DK and such characters, who I feel are better characters than Yoshi by quite a stretch.
He has the makings of a comfortable-ish mid tier for me, provided all these discoveries start to help Yoshi's tournament placings, because so far it's been pretty lacking.
That's my view, looking in on the crazy world of Yoshi mainage.
Awwwwwwwwwwwwww.....I missed the ranting. *pouts*
Yoshi mainage is like a cult, once your in you can never leave, and Scat injects a liquid into your head that makes you have the mind of a god. We know the true things about brawl since our char is low enough to inspect all aspects of the game where as higher tier chars o not have to work as hard for their victories.
Yoshi mainage is like a cult, once your in you can never leave, and Scat injects a liquid into your head that makes you have the mind of a god. We know the true things about brawl since our char is low enough to inspect all aspects of the game where as higher tier chars o not have to work as hard for their victories.
Ghost42
Smash Apprentice
I recall someone stating, in this thread, no one knows how to properly counter a Yoshi.
You're lucky you don't live in Australia, my biggest competition (Sloth) was one of the top 5 Aus Melee players and had a 50/50 win ratio against Bringer (he mains GaW in brawl and seconds ICs).
Either way, is there any plan for when people can start joining the guild?
You're lucky you don't live in Australia, my biggest competition (Sloth) was one of the top 5 Aus Melee players and had a 50/50 win ratio against Bringer (he mains GaW in brawl and seconds ICs).
Either way, is there any plan for when people can start joining the guild?
I got a weird strain of this liquid for some reason, and all of a sudden I was unwilling to openly admit that I was a Yoshi main.
I will admit, tho, that you tend to analyze other characters a lot more when you're using a low tier character, because you need to find the things you can exploit against each of those characters.
bigman40
Smash Master
@Kiwi: I know that Yoshi is basically the balanced fighter in this game (a little lower in the defense), so I've always take into account the weaknesses that he holds. What I'm saying is that we should find ways to strengthen the lacking areas, and push Yoshi's placement to where we generally agreed on (mid tier). After that, work on the crazy (high tier) things :D
@Chaco: Wait......I do what? o.o;
Everyone should know, ONE move can't fully justify a certain area in a character's game (except GW >_>). Pivot grabs isn't the "super, spectacular defense". Everything Yoshi can do defensively is still useful, situational, yes, but still useful. We need to find ways to make moves less situational, and make them a feasible strategy that we can fall on.
@Chaco: Wait......I do what? o.o;
Everyone should know, ONE move can't fully justify a certain area in a character's game (except GW >_>). Pivot grabs isn't the "super, spectacular defense". Everything Yoshi can do defensively is still useful, situational, yes, but still useful. We need to find ways to make moves less situational, and make them a feasible strategy that we can fall on.
For some weird reason, I got that lquid before I joined to SWF (To the yoshi boards, I never go to the rest of the forums, it's just like meh...), but I never noticed about it until I started Sub-Maining other characters. It was always like "I'm playing yoshi against ike, i should chaingrab bla bla bla" thinkin' stuff, but when I started sub-maining luigi, at first, I just played, but I did AWFUL, then I noticed that I couldnt play good unless y started analyzin stuff D:
Anyways, that's great
Anyways, that's great
Depster
Smash Champion
Chozen, I'm with you, Egg>uair all the way. Too easy!
ChronoPenguin
Smash Champion
ni99a's plz, Yoshi is obviously Yoshi Tier.
Thats somewhere between High and Middle....or Middle and low lawlz.
Thats somewhere between High and Middle....or Middle and low lawlz.
Airborne
Smash Lord
there are other ways to approach...his ftilt actually had enough range for me to win a sudden death against a D3.... and besides, i think we should just all keep messing with the DR/DT in order to find out if it has any other uses... has anyone tried to edgeguard with it? it might not have the range of Melee's WD, but it might still have the uses of application. I might have to agree on the Falco of Brawl thing with being balanced, i suppose, but i think yoshi gets an upper hand with most fights b/c these new ATs are not to be expected and thus he's not as predictable... imo =P
ChronoPenguin
Smash Champion
Yoshi approaches (okay im not expert)
N-air
Back air
Running grab (worst approach).
Dr/DT
Egg Roll (2nd worst approach?)
Air dodge lawlz...
Yoshi bomb from above >.> (3rd worse approach?)
SH egg toss's?
Not like yoshi needs to approach everybody, some people have to approach him and yoshi is an up-close fighter, and when he needs to approach he generally has something.
N-air
Back air
Running grab (worst approach).
Dr/DT
Egg Roll (2nd worst approach?)
Air dodge lawlz...
Yoshi bomb from above >.> (3rd worse approach?)
SH egg toss's?
Not like yoshi needs to approach everybody, some people have to approach him and yoshi is an up-close fighter, and when he needs to approach he generally has something.
Ch0zen0ne
Smash Lord
@ EveryOne- my name is Chozen... not Ch0zen -->
http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=31133
@ Chrono- Yoshi has infinite approaches... just to name afew..
DR Utilt
DR Ftilt [my personal fav]
DR Dsmash
DR Jab
Running Grab [not bad if you're opponent has tripped off a SH Dair, or is shielding eggs]
PG [pivot grab]
Bair-->Utilt
"Perfect" Bair-->Nair/Uair
Dair-->Grab
Dair
Falling Uair
DJC NeutralB
PNB [Pivot NeutralB.. this is MONEY]
Eggzzzz + everything O_o
Run up-->Shield-->Utaunt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M65zI9LH-as
Just Dance.
http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=31133
@ Chrono- Yoshi has infinite approaches... just to name afew..
DR Utilt
DR Ftilt [my personal fav]
DR Dsmash
DR Jab
Running Grab [not bad if you're opponent has tripped off a SH Dair, or is shielding eggs]
PG [pivot grab]
Bair-->Utilt
"Perfect" Bair-->Nair/Uair
Dair-->Grab
Dair
Falling Uair
DJC NeutralB
PNB [Pivot NeutralB.. this is MONEY]
Eggzzzz + everything O_o
Run up-->Shield-->Utaunt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M65zI9LH-as
Just Dance.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
Running grab is definitely NOT Yoshi's worst approach. If pressed, I'd say his worst common approach MIGHT be an unassisted running attack, but even then it occasionally has its uses.
Ch0zen0ne
Smash Lord
Aka EdgeGuarding <(^_^)b