Impa, the Enigmatic Sheikah, Sage of Shadow

[Diddy Kong]

Defending bad characters is also pretty bad...

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Defending bad characters is also pretty bad...

Exactly Diddy. So why do you do it?

Defending those who have no one to defend them is heroic, don't you think?

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think our opinion differs on this point.

However, I guess I'm still heroic in your eyes?

All in all, the community is particially to blame as well for the Impa debates we had in the if i received less 'no because no' answers conserning the idea and actually had debates with someone giving counterpoints I didn't counter before- or if someone took time to actually read what I posted- I wouldn't have to repeat myself so many times.

Guess I'm just a difficult one. If I start something, I'll finish it. No mather what odds I'm facing. Can't help that...

 

[Deleted member]

There would be less "no because no" if there was less "yes because yes".

 

[Diddy Kong]

But there was more no because no than yes because yes.

 

[Deleted member]

Not really.
It was more or less "no because you won't shut up".

Perhaps if you stopped shoving Impa down people's throats, stopped trolling other people for the characters they support, and stopped making horribly biased (that have nothing to do with relevance or canon, as Sakurai has shown not to care for either) pro-Impa and anti-Sheik points, people would start taking you seriously.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I wrote full essays, most often longer in text than what was written by users on the same page put togheter, but nobody replied to them. After a while I just became sloppy with it, and adressed only a couple of counterpoints. It was kinda annoying having to start all over when you came around however. BUT I FORGIVE YOU STILL.

 

[Frostwraith]

I wonder what kind of monstrosity people would see me as if I started shoving Anna and Dark Pit down the others' throats...

 

[Diddy Kong]

My case is different, as I'm saying a veteran character should be cut for Impa. And nobody wants to give up the ****** princess.

 

[Deleted member]

You see, that's the problem. Full essays that take up the whole page, no matter the content, reek of fanboyism.
You want to make your point across without coming off as an annoying fanboy, make simple points (without bias), and don't continuously bring it up when people don't care to read overkill. Chances are, if they didn't care about it then, they won't care about it the next hundred times you mention it.

So that being said, I am willing to have an honest debate with you over Impa through PM. I will refrain from anger if you refrain from biased argumentation. Deal?

EDIT: And that's another problem. You want to remove another character that people like solely because you don't like them and want them replaced with someone you DO. That is bias. And shoving that people's throats will get you nothing but hatred.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'mokayiththis.jpg

 

[Frostwraith]

My case is different, as I'm saying a veteran character should be cut for Impa. And nobody wants to give up the ****** princess.

Except you forget that most people don't want veteran characters cut. AND WHY SHOULD IMPA BE A SHEIK CLONE?

I've been playing SSF4 recently and there are two ninja characters (Ibuki and Guy) that have different movesets, so why couldn't we extrapolate that to Sheik and Impa, by giving them different fight styles? Impa, being the Sage of Shadow, could use more shadowy attacks (with darkness effect like Ganon's) to reflect on that characteristic.

And don't go with the "this is SS Impa" argument! Sakurai doesn't care much about canon and the Zelda characters are composite characters, representing the various incarnations of the same character, so the same could apply to Impa.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Yesh, that could easily work. However, I personally see a 5 character Zelda roster is an ideal sized roster. And Sheik is kinda outdated anyway. I personally don't see the need to have Sheik stay on the Smash roster for years if she's never gonna make another Zelda appearance that isn't a Ocarina of Time remake. And I never said Impa would take all of Sheik's moveset. But if they gonna cut Sheik anyway. Why not give Impa some of her most iconic moves, as the forward tilt, up tilt and forward aerial? That was all that I was suggesting. Maybe Up B as well?

 

[Frostwraith]

Yesh, that could easily work. However, I personally see a 5 character Zelda roster is an ideal sized roster. And Sheik is kinda outdated anyway. I personally don't see the need to have Sheik stay on the Smash roster for years if she's never gonna make another Zelda appearance that isn't a Ocarina of Time remake. And I never said Impa would take all of Sheik's moveset. But if they gonna cut Sheik anyway. Why not give Impa some of her most iconic moves, as the forward tilt, up tilt and forward aerial? That was all that I was suggesting. Maybe Up B as well?

You could say the same for, say... Ice Climbers, Ness, Lucas and Mr. Game & Watch, so I don't see why would Sheik be different from the others.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd rather wait until you make your case in the PM, but I'll respond to that here.

"Outdated" is an irrelevant issue, to be honest. Sakurai has shown to not care too much about relevancy. Any newer moves or systems added/changed to a previous character are used in the standpoint of interest and what it has to offer. With Impa replacing Sheik in both function and moveset, there really is nothing interesting to offer there. All it would do is cater to relevancy, something Sakurai doesn't care about.
And it wouldn't work the same, as Impa and Zelda have different body frames, whereas Sheik, being Zelda, is the same. Impa is much taller and much thinner. This would mean that the "new Sheik" would be larger and lighter, and possibly having more range in attacks. Impa would be a more drastic change than you realize.

 

[Diddy Kong]

You could say the same for, say... Ice Climbers, Ness, Lucas and Mr. Game & Watch, so I don't see why would Sheik be different from the others.

But difference with the retro characters is that their appearance in Smash is 'meant to be' a revival appearance of sorts. And in case of Ice Climbers and Game & Watch, the series they haik from isn't recent or relevant at all. So that goes against the point. Believe me that Sheik was added purely cause of Ocarina of Time back in Melee, which was then still a recent game.

About Ness and Lucas, I guess Mother is just really lucky to have had content in Smash since 64. Otherwise I doubt we'd ever have seen Lucas in Brawl. But remember that Lucas was also added cause of a recent appearance.

And seeing Sheik is from The Legend of Zelda, which is one of Nintendo's most important and big franchises, I think it's far more important that characters are easily recognisable, and more carefully chosen.

Impa is just a good way to start over with both Zelda and Sheik's movesets, except as standalone characters this time. Yes, Impa's longer limbs might mean she's having more range on her kicks than Sheik, but who's to say she won't trade that range for a bit of power or speed? Character balance is a vey broad definition, you cnnot say that Impa having more range = she's better than Sheik by default. Look at MetaKnight and Marth for example.

 

[SmashShadow]

To be fair, it's not like Sheik herself is going to excite people either. I mean, we've seen her moveset for 2 games now. At least this way she would have the chance for some new moves and maybe a seperate fs from Zelda. The concept of her moveset being seperate alone would be something new as well. And we could always make Sheik an alt to her seeing as she's based off her anyways.

I don't really see half of those changes as being needed anyways. The whole weight thing is kinda irrelevent because there isn't a noticably big difference between them. This is especially true because height usually adds on to weight anyway. A tall and skinny person could weigh as much as a short, bulky person. Not to mention that weight changed for many characters from Melee to Brawl so it's possible her weight will change slighty anyways. While Impa may be taller, if we're comparing her to TP Zelda(who I think was the tallest), it shouldn't be too hard to scale her down a bit.

 

[Bowserlick]

I think Zelda, as the first transformation character in Smash, will keep her alter-ego.

However, characters do sometimes pick up new moves. Donkey Kong received a new Down Smash in Melee. Kirby's dash attacks always change. Sheik can borrow a move from Impa in Skyward Sword such as making a force field. Perhaps instead of a downward kick, a downward punch with a force field effect around her fist.

 

[Diddy Kong]

That'd be extremely lame.

 

[Bowserlick]

Fine, Impa can be her own character. Sheik can be scrapped and Zelda can turn into Dr. Mario as a replacement.

 

[FalKoopa]

Fine, Impa can be her own character. Sheik can be scrapped and Zelda can turn into Dr. Mario as a replacement.

That would be amazing.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I had a 'vision' seeing SS Zelda change into a 'Sheik' but it wasn't Sheik, but only Zelda in a black Sheikah-inspired suit, not even called Sheik. Meanwhile, Impa was an AT and everyone was complaining on the internet Impa would've been better than 'Sheikah Suit Zelda', so Sakurai decided to patch the game and added Impa over this unnamed Sheik.

So what would people here prefer? A Sheik-moveset on Zelda as Down B, not even called Sheik, but it's Zelda in a Sheikah suit, or Impa- either as a own character, or a tagteam with Zelda through Down B?

 

[Frostwraith]

I had a 'vision' seeing SS Zelda change into a 'Sheik' but it wasn't Sheik, but only Zelda in a black Sheikah-inspired suit, not even called Sheik. Meanwhile, Impa was an AT and everyone was complaining on the internet Impa would've been better than 'Sheikah Suit Zelda', so Sakurai decided to patch the game and added Impa over this unnamed Sheik.

So what would people here prefer? A Sheik-moveset on Zelda as Down B, not even called Sheik, but it's Zelda in a Sheikah suit, or Impa- either as a own character, or a tagteam with Zelda through Down B?

What are you now? A prophet?

Anyway, regarding your question... Neither would please me. Just keep Zelda / Sheik as is.

 

[Diddy Kong]

No, I call it a vision cause I don't remember if I had that thought when I was really wasted, or if it was a dream.

 

[Bowserlick]

Keep Sheik/Zelda. I think it represents the wisdom aspect of Zelda while including Sheikah lure.

 

[Deleted member]

Seeing as Sheik is just Zelda in a Sheikah suit to begin with (I mean seriously, you act like Sheik is a whole different being), then no, having "Sheikah Suit Zelda" would not really be a bad idea. It's the same damn thing; just not given an alternate name from Zelda.

EDIT: And like with people calling Pokemon Trainer "Red", people would just call "Sheikah Zelda" Sheik anyway.

 

[Diddy Kong]

It doesn't represent anything, except Ocarina of Time and a character that only teached you songs.

 

[Deleted member]

It doesn't represent anything, except Ocarina of Time and a disguise of a character that only taught you songs while in said disguise.

Fixed for accuracy and spelling.
Sheik is not a single character; Sheik is Zelda. Stop acting as though Sheik is a seperate person.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Why not let Skyward Sword's Zelda transform into Tetra already?

 

[Deleted member]

>Implying Tetra is a willing disguise made by magic.

Tetra was just how one of the Zeldas was raised as. Transforming into her makes no sense whatsoever, and your constant flawed use of Tetra as a counterpoint is outright ********.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Zelda interswitched between princess and Sheik in Ocarina of TIme either. So what would be the problem?

 

[Deleted member]

Zelda interswitched between princess and Sheik in Ocarina of TIme either. So what would be the problem?

Uh, dude, she ****ing switches from Sheik to Zelda at will USING MAGIC right in front of Link to reveal who she was.
Tetra only briefly became Zelda by the magic of the King of Red Lions (as in, not by choice), and it wore off after he died. Ever since, she remained Tetra until the day she herself died. This Zelda has shown to be incapable of magic, being a pirate all her life.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Thing is: she never did that in other Zelda games. So why take up a whole moveset for a character so completely irrelevant as Sheik?

 

[Deleted member]

Because relevance is irrelevant in itself.
Sakurai doesn't give a **** about it, and you having an extreme hardon for it will not change that.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Sheik doesn't really fit the category of retro or WTF-character addition. As she was added cause of Ocarina of TIme in Melee, which was the most relevant Zelda game from that time. So I think she is in a whole different league of irrelevance than even Ice Climbers and R.O.B.

 

[Bowserlick]

Thing is: she never did that in other Zelda games. So why take up a whole moveset for a character so completely irrelevant as Sheik?

Sakurai decided to keep Sheik in Brawl despite not being in Majora, Wind Waker, or Twilight Princess. Did her other specials ever return (Din's Fire, ect.,ect.)?

I think the transformation gives Zelda spice, a strategy, and represents the Triforce of Wisdom. As opposed to the juggernaut Ganondorf who represents Power, and Link with his tool kit representing the Triforce of Courage.

 

[Deleted member]

Sheik is an aspect of Zelda. NOT A WHOLE DAMN ENTITY. With that in mind, Sheik is the same as Mario's Cape, just a part of the character. The only difference, ONLY DIFFERENCE, is that Sheik is essentially a "mode change" with an alternate set of moves. Despite this, it's still the same character.
Sakurai has shown not to give a rat's ass about relevance in regards to aspects of a character. If he did, Mario would not be using his Cape in Brawl, Sheik would have been removed from Zelda already, Zelda herself would be fighting with a rapier and the moves she used while she was possessed rather than using magic from OoT she didn't even use, Pikachu would be using something like Iron Tail instead of Skull Bash (since it can't use Skull Bash at all as of Gen 3), Bowser would not have been like he was back in Super Mario 64, Peach would be using Vibe powers instead of pulling out Vegetables like back in SMB2, Ganondorf would be using his sword already, Toon Link would not be using the Master Sword (as that's stuck in Ganondorf's head in WW), etc.

 

[Diddy Kong]

What's so couragous about projectile spam? And what's so powerful about first: copying Captain Falcon's moves, and then: being absolute garbage tier? It has nothing to do with anything. And if anything, the spells Zelda does represents wisdom more than enough.

 

[Bowserlick]

What's so couragous about projectile spam? And what's so powerful about first: copying Captain Falcon's moves, and then: being absolute garbage tier? It has nothing to do with anything. And if anything, the spells Zelda does represents wisdom more than enough.

Ganondorf is the strongest character. Zelda has two forms for different scenarios. And Link is like a scout, always prepared with his "swiss-army knife" of tools for any situation. My take on it.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Characters mostly use their most iconic abilities, or abilities best representing their series (say, for the StarFox / Mother characters). Sheik is not the most iconic thing Zelda did. Pure and simple.