Immigration: Should learning the native language be required?

[Alacion]

Inspired from my day at work today.

Too many immigrants came to the store today, incapable of responding to "Hi, how are you?". The most common responses to that question today were *nervous giggle* or "No".

The funniest moment of the day was a lady pointing to the washroom and nodding - failing to read the OUT OF ORDER sign posted on the door. Why immigrants have some kind of love for Tommy Hilfiger clothing is beyond me. Nobody will ever see me wearing that stuff outside of the store.

So that brings me to this question: should individuals be required to learn the native language of the country they immigrated to?

Below are just some of my thoughts on the matter.

For Learning a New Language:

1) Assimilation.
It is a good thing when you're in an alien land. There's going to be a support system for you. As such, one will learn the culture and norms which is always a good thing. "I kill you" is a statement of affection in some cultures, but certainly not in the USA or Canada. Knowing what is right and wrong is a necessity. Children are brought up learning what is right and wrong so they don't mess up in the future.

2) Security.
Without knowledge of the native language(s), you are defenseless in a way. You are incapable of defending yourself from others. You can't ask for help and you will not be in a position to help others. There could be a bottle of liquid similar to water that says TOXIC and immigrants may never know and suffer as a result.

3) Standardization.
With immigrants all over the globe flocking to North America, the diversity is staggering. There are people from Mexico to Oceania. There is a need for standardization so everybody can converse with everybody else. There's no way a store can accommodate people from hundreds of countries.

4) Resources.
Is it fair that somebody who has made no contribution to their new country and can't even communicate with the average person (like my grandmother) gets more money in a month via pension than I do from working two jobs (I'm from Canada)? The same could be said for all other resources a country provides.

5) Employment.
As much as we love that innocent immigrant, communication can be terrible when I have trouble understanding him or her. Asking them to repeat the same thing many times is embarrassing for both parties and is such a hassle.

6) Stare Decisis.
Countries have mandated that their native language be learned by all immigrants. Should other countries follow suit?

Against Learning a New Language.

1) Asking too much.
Learning a new language is very difficult, and apparently more so with age. How can a country enforce a rule requiring all immigrants to learn a language?

2) Good enough.
As long as an immigrant can support him or herself, or have somebody do it for them, why poke your nose into their business? Knowing the native language isn't essential for survival.

3) Statistics.
There are a good amount of immigrants able to speak English. Is the current number good enough? Did I have the misfortune of meeting all the immigrants unable to speak English today?

4) Rights.
Is it fair to force people to learn a language? Do immigrants have the right to refuse to learn the native language?

5) Micro(?)assimilation.
Immigrants can flock with those they can communicate with. In this way, a support system is created with like-minded people where language barriers do not exist.



So what do you guys think? Should English be required to be learned in English speaking countries? Or any native language from any country?

 

[Daddy Ash]

I think that immigrants should learn the native language. The number of times I walk down my own street and hear a full blown conversation in Polish or Hindi etc. is ridiculous and makes me feel like an outsider in my own country, it's not just that either but the difficulty I have in communicating with some of the customers at my place of work is beyond belief, simply telling them something is out of stock takes the best part of 10 minutes.
Immigrants not learning the native language only serves to alienate them from the native population and also creates unnecessary barriers that only serve to create tension, ignorance and potentially hatred between the immigrants and natives.
All immigrants should be tested on their basic understanding of the native language and how they implement it in conversation before being granted a place in that native country's populace.

Sorry for short reply at the moment, it's after midnight and I will gladly expand on my points/arguments in greater detail tomorrow.

 

[eschemat]

It shouldn't be required lol.

The ramifications of knowing English are huge. It not only is a show of anti-multiculturalism, but it's a form of discrimination in a land of equality. In any western liberal democracy, they have as much right to their language as the people of that country. That's the social contract, so in principle, it's wrong to discriminate against people simply because they don't know the language of the land the moment they enter.

In practice, that just lowers immigration rates dramatically. Immigration isn't that easy, and adding requirements that are not only discriminatory but pragmatically prevent a person from being successful destroys how successful immigrants are, and lowers the level of immigrants dramatically, something that is bad for any country.

I can elaborate as well, but that's my take on it.

 

[Alacion]

Honestly, before yesterday, I would have sided with eschemat.

Dealing with customers one after another that can not speak English is very irritating. It's not like immigrants need to be perfect at English but good enough to survive on their own.

You could argue that there are support systems for these people, but what if some tragedy occurs and they are suddenly gone? The immigrants would be totally helpless - incapable of managing finances, incapable of returning home, etc.

Having immigrants learn English isn't anti-multicultural or else why would we let immigrants in the country? It's really for their own welfare to learn English.

English is the primary language in the USA. There's no way people can accommodate every immigrant for the sake of equality. There's just far too much to do, so rather than have many accommodate the few why not have the reverse? Discrimination will happen no matter what happens. We are not forcing immigrants to abandon their own native language and cultures but perhaps since the immigrants were allowed in the country, they could show the courtesy to learn our language and culture? It's really a win-win situation in my eyes. English is hard to learn but obtaining a basic mastery in the language shouldn't be difficult.

 

[T-block]

It absolutely should be a requirement.

Cultural diversity is fantastic, and it will still be present. Forcing immigrants to learn the official language does not imply restricting use of their native tongue, as Aleate said in the post above. This is not about an individual's right to their own culture or anything like that - this is about ensuring that society can operate.

eschemat, why is making immigration more difficult a bad thing?

 

[Lord Chair]

Where are the bounds? You want to have international student exchange programs applying it? What if I'm rich, am a British citizen but I spend most of my time in Russia for work? You state a lot of pros and cons, but those aren't applicable in every situation.

Once someone becomes a citizen of your country he should have equal rights, that's a basic concept. If you require everyone to learn your language then you're making your country relatively inaccessible.

Yes, that does bring mentioned issues into play with poor economic refugees who will never assimilate. It's the price you pay for having a state of rights.

 

[-Jumpman-]

I think that immigrants should learn the native language. The number of times I walk down my own street and hear a full blown conversation in Polish or Hindi etc. is ridiculous and makes me feel like an outsider in my own country, it's not just that either but the difficulty I have in communicating with some of the customers at my place of work is beyond belief, simply telling them something is out of stock takes the best part of 10 minutes.
Immigrants not learning the native language only serves to alienate them from the native population and also creates unnecessary barriers that only serve to create tension, ignorance and potentially hatred between the immigrants and natives.
All immigrants should be tested on their basic understanding of the native language and how they implement it in conversation before being granted a place in that native country's populace.

Sorry for short reply at the moment, it's after midnight and I will gladly expand on my points/arguments in greater detail tomorrow.

Alienation is a result of inacceptibility of natives, not of lack of understanding of the native language.

 

[Daddy Ash]

So if you are in a class at school say for example, and over 3/4 of the class is discussing a current event or sports result in other languages than the native language that you don't understand you wouldn't feel alienated at all? And to add to the matter if they don't understand anything past very simple English so it is next to impossible to get involved in any communication with them it would make you feel an even bigger outsider in your own native country. And to any that try to counter argue that it is the same for an immigrant, remember we aren't the ones that immigrated into there country it's the other way around.
In response to jumpman's argument about alienation, a natives in-acceptability of immigrants has to stem from somewhere and a language barrier is a clear starting point. It means that the immigrant's way of life becomes inaccessible and therefore makes the native ignorant of their beliefs, the only way to resolve this is for the immigrant to learn one language or the native to learn most of the languages of the immigrants. It is bad enough to become bi-lingual but it would be much harder to become tri-lingual and even harder to pick up a fourth language, especially when immigrants come from far and wide thus bringing a wide variety of languages with them.
And to whoever said immigration is not easy I must disagree, I'm not sure the situation where you live, but in the UK we have so many new immigrants each day and many more that are illegal immigrants. Even when we do catch illegal immigrants they still stay within our country citing it is unsafe to return home or escaping custody and going back into hiding.
The least these immigrants can do in return for getting benefits and pensions that are already spread very sparsely to the natives that have paid taxes to the country for their whole lives as well as their previous generations is learn at least a basic understanding of English, so that they can communicate more easily with the majority of the country's populace they're immigrating into.

 

[Lord Chair]

@Daddy Ash

You're talking in general terms about a non-specified situation. We talking American immigration issues? Are you talking about Western or non-Western immigration? You act like every single immigrant sucks at English and therefor has issues with integration.

Same counts for your implications that all (illegal) immigrants are economic refugees or otherwise have a negative influence on ''the country's'' economy.

edit in response to your edit: moar generalization, being an immigrant doesn't mean being poor or having a negative influence on society

 

[Daddy Ash]

I am referring mainly to UK immigration, and I did not mean to come across that all immigrants cannot speak basic English that is why I said in an earlier post that they should be tested on their ability to communicate with the natives before being granted citizenship to the native country. Some immigrants are well educated in English and those are mainly the ones that come over legally on work visa's therefore they would pass the initial testing upon entry. Many more however do not understand English and would therefore be not granted citizenship right away. And it may seem like generalization but the area of England I come from is very multicultural due to immigration, and with my access to the public through work many immigrants have clear issues with the English language.
In reply to the negative influence on society I was referring to the immigrants that come over that are in there late 80s simply to get a pension and are too old to work, what have they done for the native society?
Anyway off to bed now it after 1:30am, will debate more at some point tomorrow.

 

[Lord Chair]

They came in the late 80s and therefor they worked their ***** off in the industrial sector.

You still didn't address the state of rights and the concept of equality. If you're rich and pay taxes but don't speak the language, are you buying your way through a law?

 

[Crooked Crow]

How can anyone possibly assimilate into a foreign country without learning their native language, even on a basic level? Yes, social barriers exist, work around them if you're that intent on immigrating.

Countries are proud of their cultures, if you wish to join it, there's only one logical conclusion and I've stated it already.

 

[Alacion]

I believe Mexico and Russia require immigrants to be competent in their language.

Why doesn't a rule like this exist for countries like the USA or Canada? How reliant on immigrants are these two countries?

Aside: I'm so pooped. This time next year, remind me not to take two summer classes while taking on two jobs at the same time. I am an idiot.

 

[eschemat]

We're the beacons of freedom. That's why.

Firstly, making immigration is definitely a bad thing, for two distinct reasons; firstly, in the example of Canada, all population growth will be made up of immigrants with twenty years. Secondly, and much more importantly, is that immigration is how we keep immigrants accountable. The problem with making legitimate immigration more difficult, illegal aliens will enter. We can see that already happening in the US with relatively strict immigration laws, and even stricter laws will create more illegal aliens, which is arguably worse than having more legitimate immigrants.

Secondly, people who move to these countries can and will choose to learn the language if they want to, and in most cases, they will. The problem with mandating them to learn it before they enter is that their resources will be significantly poorer, especially if they're impoverished or from corrupt impoverished countries. So causing them to learn the language as a prerequisite doesn't solve anything really.

 

[T-block]

firstly, in the example of Canada, all population growth will be made up of immigrants with twenty years.

a) source?
b) why does this mean that making immigration harder is a bad thing?

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that such a requirement would make it easier for the immigrant to integrate, and make it easier for the society to accept that immigrant. Isn't this reason enough?

Why should we care if the immigrant does not have the resources to learn another language? What's wrong with telling them to stay in their own country then? Is it purely for humanitarian reasons?

 

[Lord Chair]

Why should we care if the immigrant does not have the resources to learn another language? What's wrong with telling them to stay in their own country then? Is it purely for humanitarian reasons?

My earlier comment: if they're self-sustaining and are in no way a burden to the society they're immigrating to, why would they have to learn the language?

Even if they do have the resources, why would you care about them learning the language?

Another example. If you're a US citizen and for some reason want to emigrate to Denmark, where most of the population has a decent understanding of English, would you honestly consider it detrimental for yourself to learn the language? No one would care too much, honestly.

Take it a step further, Arabic refugees emigrating to another Arabic country (dialects differ!), should they have to learn the different dialect fully?

If I'm Dutch, my English sucks and I want to move to the States and I'm a millionaire, would I have to learn the language? What if I'd be poor?

You completely ignored this argument at first, which I'll just bold down and make a tl;dr out of:

Immigrants not knowing the language is not the root of immigration problems. It's silly at best to impose a language test upon immigrants, if only because you'd have to impose the same ruling on wealthier or otherwise self-sustaining immigrants, with whom it'd have no surplus value.

 

[T-block]

I'm speaking from a pragmatic viewpoint. If the immigrant can function in society without learning the language (as in your Denmark example), then that would be fine. If someone is coming to America only able to speak Chinese, his ability to integrate into society is going to be severely limited. I disagree with the statement that learning the language would have no surplus value, even if he were incredibly wealthy to begin with. Most emigrate with the intention of actually interacting with society in the new culture, even if it's not necessary, and being able to speak the language that the majority of people do is integral to that.

Admittedly, this does introduce somewhat of a double standard when looking at implementation, but I'm only arguing the concept at the moment.

 

[Lord Chair]

Integration into society is not what we should require anyone to do. It's one big gray area, even if you require immigrants to learn the language you have no guarantee they'll their newfound knowledge to actually integrate.

I'm not sure why you'd want to enforce integration. I can sympathize with attempts to make the noticeable amount of immigrants who are actually imposing a burden on a country's welfare system slightly more bearable, and yes learning the language is definitely an aspect that should be addressed. However, forcing all immigrants to pay the bill to learn the language they don't want to and perhaps don't even need to learn is not the way to address the issues.

I could understand the reasoning that you'd enforce the language upon immigrants who are actually forming a burden. It shouldn't be enforced upon immigration, but upon failing to do so without harming the destination state.

 

[eschemat]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2007/03/13/census-canada.html

That's one source I've found, on the news I've heard the statistic for all population growth realistically to be from immigration.

Firstly, about the requirement. People will want to learn the language eventually, you don't see immigrants just choose not to learn the language. It's because they're unable to learn the language. And as I've said before, when they're unable to, they'll just come in as illegal aliens.

About the resources point, they have resources if they come to that country because all of the people of that country speak that language, so adding a prerequisite of learning that native language ultimately leads to two things:

Firstly, more illegal aliens. Doesn't solve the problem, just makes it significantly worse by causing all of society to suffer.

Secondly, it doesn't help any new immigrants learn the native language because they get the resources they need in the country they're immigrating to.

So, the conclusion is that while in a perfect world where everyone can learn the language fast, this would work. Not in our world.

Quick question: If you claim to want them to integrate more and are acting on behalf of them.... WTF? If they want to integrate more, that's their choice, and they'll use choose to integrate more. But the concept of knowing what's best for them has been proven to be false. Harm principle from JS Mill for example.

@Lord Chair:

Great point. What dictates a member of your country? Sovereignty is not determined by whether or not they know the language, it's determined by a investment in the social contract, like taxes. Really good point.

 

[Alacion]

I do think all immigrants would like to learn the native language but I suppose it really depends on the person on whether or not they take the initiative to learn it.

For example, at one of the places I work, it's always filled with non-English speaking immigrants. They probably come buy clothes because of the branding, and that's all. They're also usually older, unemployed people. They don't need language to contribute to society (ie. Buying clothes, making sure workers get paid). A question I'm pondering here is are immigrants a worthy "investment"? This question is based on my lack of knowledge in the matter.

There are people like my grandmother who only visits Canada to maintain her retirement money from the government. She rarely leaves the house, and never contributes to society. There are others that work hard and do their share in society. My parents immigrated to Canada from China without knowing much English at all. Today, they are pretty good at the language because that's the only way one can contribute at all (unless you're rich which was mentioned by somebody else I believe).

Rather then enforcing a rule that mandates immigrants to learn a new language, should immigration assess people based on their potential of helping society? But on the other side, is it all right to deny people from possibly gaining a better life here?

Aside:
Lots of Chinese people will do anything to immigrate to Canada/USA. Life is apparently better here. A good example of this is my distant uncle and aunt. My uncle got his Canadian citizenship, and the first time he saw my aunt was at their wedding. Something just doesn't sound right about that although I do think they are doing well and are slowly adjusting. My aunt's English is still bad but she is studying to make an impact in society

 

[1048576]

http://xkcd.com/84/

In short, no. Freedom is still a good thing. You don't have to help them find things if they're in your store.

 

[Alacion]

^Lol'd at the comic. Kinda unrealistic but it does make a point.

And I actually do have to help all the customers. We are supposed to "serve" every customer with "world class" customer service. There are also frequent mystery shoppers which adds on to this stress. Obviously, I can't tell if a customer is unable to speak English until I approach and talk to the customer.

If it's any indication of how busy things are, it takes 3 hours after closing to clean/fold all the clothes the customers happily mess up without a second thought. On weekends/holidays, 3 hours isn't enough with 10 people cleaning and folding. This is just a Tommy Hilfiger store, nothing like Sears or anything.

 

[Daddy Ash]

They came in the late 80s and therefor they worked their ***** off in the industrial sector.

You still didn't address the state of rights and the concept of equality. If you're rich and pay taxes but don't speak the language, are you buying your way through a law?

I meant age wise not a specific decade, If they came into the country in the late 80s and worked hard and paid there way then fair enough, I mean 80 year olds that have never paid a penny into the economy expecting a state pension that another 80 year old native has worked since there late teens to pay for.
To address the state of rights and equality the testing I proposed will surely guarantee equality is upheld because it doesn't matter if your poor or rich just your desire to learn the language and gain citizenship and integrate into the country, A poor person may need to move into the country for the chance to live a better life and will strive to learn English and be granted access, a rich person simply wanting more opportunities to expand there wealth but with no desire to integrate and learn English would be declined access.
Because at the end of the day yes the native country may require immigrants to expand it's populace and sustain itself economically, but at what cost? Keeping the country's heritage and history remembered and celebrated should be part a citizen's duty, if too many immigrants come into the country with no understanding of it's language and unable to read/understand it's cultural heritage causing it to eventually fade and be forgotten, replaced by foreign cultural heritage. Now this isn't a bad thing as people can learn from other's beliefs and cultural heritage and change for the better but there is a fine line between integrating other country's beliefs and cultural heritage inclusively and replacing the native country's cultural heritage with foreign heritage/beliefs exclusively.
Now this won't happen in one generation but in many generations hundreds of year's into the future, but by not stemming the influx of non-English speaking immigrants now can cause this to happen later on. Before anyone jumps on me as being racist or ignorant then I am not, there is still a place to integrate foreign heritage into the native country and I do not believe it would be fair to ban the immigrant speaking in their native tongue and passing this on to there future generations, because that is how language evolves, and in the future a new better language may come into existence due to immigration.
For this to happen it would need to work both ways, if say someone wants to immigrate from America or England to Russia then I would expect them to learn basic Russian to integrate fully and uphold both country's cultural heritages/languages. Who knows maybe a world where immigration forces people to become at least partially bi-lingual will create a better understanding of each others histories and l therefore reduce conflicts.
I truly believe in a perfect future society all aspects of cultural heritages and beliefs would be integrated and explored equally.

 

[Battlecow]

http://xkcd.com/84/

In short, no. Freedom is still a good thing. You don't have to help them find things if they're in your store.

You're missing the point of the comic. It was a "hai guys the Indians were here first, we kind of screwed them" thing, not a "people shouldn't have to learn the language" thing. Or at least, that's how I took it, because it doesn't present any decent argument against the language thing; we didn't learn the indian language because we were too busy remorselessly, ****ishly curbstomping them and their culture. If the Chinese conquer us and destroy 99% of our population, the rest of us will learn Chinese. The colonists never saw themselves as "immigrants"- they legitimately saw themselves as establishing new countries.

That being said, I kind of agree with you. I'm leaning towards thinking that people SHOULD learn the language in order to be useful and productive members of society, but that forcing them to do so is a bit over the line; a bit too freedom-constricting. It's in most people's best interests to learn English, so they ought to take care of that for themselves; if they don't they're being punished for it by not being able to interact with society at large. Forcing them sounds expensive, unnecessary, and hard to implement.

 

[Lord Chair]

What's with the supposed value of the cultural heritage? A citizen of a country has no obligations whatsoever aside of abiding the law. 'Contribution to society' is nothing more than 'not straining the social welfare program', which is a rather twisted definition. Cultural heritage aside, economic refugees tend to actually have a motivation to make that 'contribution', perhaps even more so than the average native.

Main point I'm making is that there's no such thing as immigrants failing to contribute to society any more than natives. Truly contributing is a fairly impressive thing to do, and not something that necessarily has anything to do with speaking the right language of having the right nationality. If you want them to make the country a better place to live in then I don't see why you aren't forcing your natives to do the same thing.

 

[Daddy Ash]

The difference is a native failing to contribute to society is hard to change, seeing as they are already citizen's of that country, and have rights, unless there is radical changes to the way government's enforce lack of contribution. And the value of cultural heritage includes the native language so in theory they are tied together, thereby making a immigrant have basic understanding of native language can directly link to ensuring at least part of the country's heritage remains in their future generations.

 

[ballin4life]

They shouldn't have to, but they shouldn't expect much either if they can't communicate with other people.

 

[Alacion]

Just read an article during break at work today. (I realize I'm not really "debating" anymore but rather just adding on whimsical things)

Immigrants coming to Canada are required to take a general knowledge test. The problem was that there were multiple answer keys available leading to an excessively high immigration rate to Canada (97% pass rate). Now that the test bank and order of questions have been scrambled a little, people are finding it more difficult to pass it (failure rate increased by 30%).

Immigrants are given 5-8 months of study time to prepare for the exam, which is ample time to learn English. Obviously, a level mastery of English should be required since the exam tests general knowledge questions ranging from cars to Terry Fox.

While I don't fully understand how this works, I imagine there is exemption for certain individuals... especially since there are those who nervously laugh at "How are you?" and point to out of order washrooms. I imagine elderly people are exempt.

 

[Daddy Ash]

I've heard of something similar we tried to implement in England a while ago, making all immigrants take a citizenship test about the culture and history of the country, failure to pass the test resulted in an immigrant not being granted access to the country, not sure if or even when it would be implemented, but it may be the way to go, and would work similar to testing how well the immigrant knows English like I proposed earlier.

 

[Lord Chair]

In the Netherlands we had that too, I recall having one of those tests being done in class in high school. We made it together, WITH THE TEACHER, and still failed.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Such a test contributes nothing to the process of immigration and is in fact discrimination.

I am not considering Lord Chair's anecdote evidence, but his point does illustrate how natives often have lacking knowledge of their country's history. It also shows how history is a rather bad criterion for citizenship.

 

[Daddy Ash]

I disagree with the citizenship test policy was just saying how England tried to implement it a while back, but I still think a test that makes sure a immigrant has basic understanding of English is the way forward. I don't know who mentioned it earlier but the way certain countries only allow immigrants that speak fluently in their language access to the country is taking it a little far, becoming fluent in a language could take years of study, although learning a basic understanding of the language is slightly easier with the right support, and most high school students learn a basic understanding of another language which is enforced by the laws of education.

 

[Battlecow]

Daddy Ash, I'm not gonna bother reading your posts if I have to squint and highlight them first. White text will do fine.

 

[Daddy Ash]

Daddy Ash, I'm not gonna bother reading your posts if I have to squint and highlight them first. White text will do fine.

It's not that hard to read, I have seen worse font colours around the forums that are brighter/blend into background worse than mine. If you don't like seeing other font colours in posts then set your Show Custom Post Colours option to off from your CP -> Settings & Options -> Edit Options. You really didn't need a entire post in this thread to complain about something you can choose not to view.

 

[Battlecow]

Thanks for the tip, didn't know you could turn that off.

Seriously though, it was killing me, probably because my screen is really dim...

 

[ballin4life]

battlecow needs to rob some jewelry stores to get a new screen.