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"I'm going to miss tripping in Super Smash Bros. 4" - Destructoid

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http://www.destructoid.com/i-m-going-to-miss-tripping-in-super-smash-bros-4-277959.phtml

I'm not going to comment on anything stated yet, but thought it'd be interesting (see:hilarious) to get some discussion on this new article from Destructoid. Here's an excerpt to get you all fired up.

To put it bluntly, competitive Melee has become a game that attracts impatient control freaks who want full authority over their player character and their opponent at all times, leaving nothing to chance and no time to wait and see how a situation will unfold.
Let it begin.

Important : Posters be warned and Mods be notified, this is strictly not a Brawl vs Melee topic. Please take care to stay on the topic of the article and do not devolve.
 
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Substitution

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Found this in the comments.
BobPalindrome said:
I think the biggest problem of tripping is not the tripping itself, but the randomness factor added into a game that is otherwise 100% agency.

I also think that there are other ways to design a game to mix up the gameplay than some random element.

Edit: What's more, I'd like to address this particular section...

"To have those kinds of rules built into the next Smash Bros could make for an extremely interesting dynamic. If you take a "cheap" hit on an opponent and a red or yellow card is thrown in, you're going to have to face consequences. Maybe the player who was fouled on would get a free Smash Ball attack in compensation, or worse, the offending player may be removed from the game. In Ice Hockey (both in real life and on the NES), those kinds of risks are taken regularly, sometimes as part of a larger strategy. It may be smarter to take out a particularly opposing player with a cheap shot, even if it means being taking out of the game with them. That kind of thing is a lot grosser in real life, as it's real people getting physically assaulted, but in Smash Bros, it's just a relatively harmless foray into calculated crime and punishment."

Video games are a thing of automation. Automation is something that lessens the burden on human responsibility and "fairness", because the fairness is automatically generated. Adding additional rules outside of the game is obselete, when you can just design around the unfairness in-game.

For example, what is the point of speed limit signs on a road when you have cars that drive themselves? They would detect the designated speed limit for the area and act accordingly. Or, better yet, we would have a transportation system that had no need for speed limits.

...One more thing...on a personal note, I like playing games like Smash because they are the diametric opposite to games like MtG and Yahtzee, where the engagement comes from the agency (the control you have), instead of just the random bullcrap that happens.
 

MasterOfKnees

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This is probably just a click bait article, no way he's serious about the article. It's not just about the tripping, it's the fact that he thinks Melee and Brawl play exactly alike except for the addition of tripping and longer air-time.

Either way the article is just idiotic, and I even like Brawl.
 
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It was funny when your opponent tripped into your kill move. It was not funny when you tripped into your opponent's kill move.
 

praline

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Warning Received
Please stop.

It's these kind of things that'll never unite the community.
Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better.
 
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For giving my opinion?
Brawl being better than melee isn't a constructive statement. We're discussing the article and the writers opinion on tripping and the competitive scene for melee as a whole as he makes some pretty glaring and heavy accusations and observations.

I've edited the OP to reflect how needed your opinion is.
 

Second Power

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The fact that the average smasher can only tell the different between Melee and Brawl side by side is wrong in my experience. Normally, me and my little brother (12 years old) only play Project M (which is basically Melee). I only have one SD card, and I wanted to try Balanced Brawl so I put that on. Played for a bit alone. The next day, he came to me to ask for my SD card to play PM, but I was heading out at the time so I told him it was a different mod called Balanced Brawl and nothing else about it.

When I came home, he immediately asked if I was going to put PM back on. So, yeah, people can tell the difference in my experience.
 

Farorae

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I don't understand why someone would want chance to be such a huge factor and want less control over one's character. The article seems more like a hate article towards competitive Melee than anything.

edit: not really surprised this article is from destructoid after all
 
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Hong

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For giving my opinion?
You more or less trolled another user and reposted the same three words over and over in succession. So not only did you troll, but you spammed. That's far from giving an opinion.

I want @Zipzo's topic to not degrade into another needless Melee VS Brawl debate. Let's keep this civil.
 

TheMagicalKuja

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Oh wow this article.

Select quotes of clickbait:

In Melee, there are even unintended abuses of the system (like L-canceling)
This eventually turned most high level Smash Bros. Melee play into a race to get in there then start a poke and fake routine until your opponent makes a mistake.
While I respect that decision, I feel it would have been better to give players the decision to turn it on or off, or better yet, have the option to make the frequency of tripping even more likely. A game where 1/50, or even 1/5 dashes lead to a trip would be an exciting, hilarious decent into barbarism.


Seriously. So much inaccuracy, and this is someone who finds Melee irritating to watch for too long because of the same characters/stages.
 
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PillsBuryDopeBoy

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"We instituted a system like this back at my local arcade when Street Fighter 2 was new. Everyone who played in our town knew each other, and we all agreed that throws were against our rules, as they were "too cheap".

Funniest thing I've read all day.

Tripping isn't something we should "get used to" and try and overcome, it was a random chance for you to be unfairly punished.
I love brawl, but I'm glad its gone.
 

ChikoLad

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I'm of the mindset that tripping should really be a toggle-able feature, even if it was through this game's "Special Melee/Brawl" mode. Call it "Clumsy Smash", where tripping becomes really frequent and ice physics are constant. :p

Tripping is a sin for competitive/serious single-player play, but creates amazing moments in more casual and light hearted play.
 

SKM_NeoN

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A few quotes from this atrocious article:

"This is despite the fact that most human beings wouldn't be able to see the difference in how the games [Brawl and Melee] play unless presented with a head to head comparison. Even then they may not be able to see it. Unless you're accustomed to the lightning fast pace of competitive Melee play, the differences may be undetectable."

"Every character has at least two jumps, can block in the air, and advance with invincibility while rolling."

"To put it bluntly, competitive Melee has become a game that attracts impatient control freaks who want full authority over their player character and their opponent at all times, leaving nothing to chance and no time to wait and see how a situation will unfold."

"Everyone who played in our town knew each other, and we all agreed that throws were against our rules, as they were 'too cheap'."

To think this guy gets paid to write this garbage.
 
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Saito

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Sorry but as far as I'm concerned, the only discussion you'll get out of this thread is how ridiculous the article maker sounds.

I'd be willing to bet that he doesn't even play smash at least 5 times a month. Some say that his opinion should matter because he's a consumer, but his opinion would definitely be detrimental to the game's casual, and competitive scene.

I honestly don't see why anyone could think that such blatant randomness is in anyway good unless they just so happen to get a few wins against their friends because of it.

I would wish this was click bait, but considering how little this person actually knows about smash, I'd be willing to say he actually believes that.

I don't feel like bashing a casual for his opinion though.
 

pizzapie7

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Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But if your opinion is this ****ing stupid don't share it, please.
 

Pyra

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Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But if your opinion is this ****ing stupid don't share it, please.
I'd use the word "uneducated" or even "ignorant", but yeah, I agree.

When sharing your opinion without knowing what the hell you're talking about, be prepared to have the internet tear you a new asshole.
 

Shin F.

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This is despite the fact that most human beings wouldn't be able to see the difference in how the games play unless presented with a head to head comparison. Even then they may not be able to see it. Unless you're accustomed to the lightning fast pace of competitive Melee play, the differences may be undetectable.
Really? I didn't even need to read past this point. Not worth the time. He discredited himself to me with this statement. Even as a casual who went from Melee to Brawl, it's easy to tell the difference. It was the first thing I noticed whenever I played a veteran character, especially ones that are typically fast like Fox. Literally, I noticed on day 1 of release how different it was. This guy seems to have no clue what he's talking about.
 
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Pyra

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A game where 1/50, or even 1/5 dashes lead to a trip would be an exciting, hilarious decent into barbarism.
Now, I don't claim to be a competitive player. I barely follow the competitive community. Someday I hope to join competitive players.

That being said, this guy is an awful person.
 

ImaClubYou

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I'm sure playing the game once every 3 months is what gives off this type of article.

There seriously needs to be a qualification system for individual games. Especially if you're getting PAID FOR IT.

I barely get angry off uneducated articles, but this one is reaalllyyyy bad.
 

skstylez

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For giving my opinion?
I actually like Brawl more than Melee, but I don't know why you would want tripping back.
How to give an opinion

Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better. Brawl is better.
How not to give an opinion
 

Pyra

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I'm sure playing the game once every 3 months is what gives off this type of article.

There seriously needs to be a qualification system for individual games. Especially if you're getting PAID FOR IT.

I barely get angry off uneducated articles, but this one is reaalllyyyy bad.
I haven't played smash more than an average of once per few months this year.
That doesn't mean anything.
 
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TheDMonroeShow

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To put it bluntly, competitive Melee has become a game that attracts impatient control freaks who want full authority over their player character and their opponent at all times, leaving nothing to chance
Isn't that the whole point of a competitive game? That it isn't left to chance and it's based purely on the ability of the players and how they adapt?

Honestly this article is straight up idiotic and plane misinformed at times. Even people who prefer brawl agree(for the most part) that tripping was a bad thing not to mention I play casually with plenty of people no matter which they prefer they can tell the damn difference in gameplay.
 
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Super Writer

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I like the random factor of the game, constantly having to adapt to new variables like items and stage hazard. However what I like about these are simply the fact that it allows you to adapt, control is still in the hands of all players. Every item can be countered and learning to do so is just part of the game.

I think this is why tripping is so despised by both competitive players and casuals, it takes control out of the player's hands for a second, which is more than enough time to turn the tides. There is no adapting around tripping, it just happens, and makes one player a sitting duck. Worst of all, I feel it really ruins the gameplay. Lose because you trip, the game cheated you. Win because the opponent tripped, shallow victory.

But I can't dock a guy for having an opinion, even if it is of bad taste. Unless of course the intention was click bait...
 

Ogre_Deity_Link

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Ya know, I have my issues with Melee's lightning fast pace...

But this guy...this guy just comes across as utterly and totally uneducated. It was like he looked for all the most toxic posts on SmashBoards and GameFaq boards and did all of his research completely off of those.

Seriously, Blocking in mid-air?

Though, in retrospect, that COULD be an interesting new feature. Maybe one shoulder button is airdodge, and the other is air-blocking? I dunno, just an idea.
 

RascalTheCharizard

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This is just sad. Blocking in the air? Um... What?

Like, it's cool that you hate competitors like myself, but you could at least give examples of things we do THAT ARE ACTUALLY POSSIBLE TO DO.
 
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Maybe we can infer that by "blocking in the air" he meant air dodging?

I'm not saying that makes him any less stupid but just for the sake of getting past the obvious thing to point out.
 

Saito

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You know what, I actually read this article, carefully.

I can't believe I'm doing this either...


This is despite the fact that most human beings wouldn't be able to see the difference in how the games play unless presented with a head to head comparison. Even then they may not be able to see it. Unless you're accustomed to the lightning fast pace of competitive Melee play, the differences may be undetectable.
This statement is flawed because while most human beings wouldn't be able to see the difference, most smash brothers players would be able to see and feel the difference.

So if the differences are minor, and tripping is a rarity, why did Brawl cause Melee devotees to feel so robbed? It's because contrary to what many may think, the core appeal of the series isn't watching a bunch of Nintendo characters hit each other into space and then explode. The thing that really makes playing Smash Bros, particularly Melee, feel different than other fighting games is the absurd level of control that it allows you to take over your character.
He's half right.

The appeal of competitive smash brothers is due to the control a player has over their character, but that's not the core appeal.

can block in the air
I'm going to just assume he meant air dodge and ignore that.

Smash Bros. allows you to do the most amazing things without really trying.
False because you have to have the control of your character to do the amazing things. The controls are simple to understand and your attacks are easy to preform.

When every character in a fighter has this many abilities, the game becomes not so much what strategies you choose, but how fast and efficient you are in implementing them. This eventually turned most high level Smash Bros. Melee play into a race to get in there then start a poke and fake routine until your opponent makes a mistake. Any sort of long distance game, alternating between closing in and backing off, or anything but fast, short range normal attacks has been mostly thrown out the window. The most statistically successful and commonly used characters (Fox, Sheik, Captain Falcon) all are all about speed and risk reduction, making the game a contest of reflexes and dexterity more than anything else.
He underestimates the value of the strategy.

The strategies implemented in smash brothers are essentially the same as any other fighting game at it's core.
"Make your opponent make a mistake."

From a viewer perspective, it all looks like reflexes and dexterity, but there is more to it than just that. Those do play an important factor in smash though.

To put it bluntly, competitive Melee has become a game that attracts impatient control freaks who want full authority over their player character and their opponent at all times, leaving nothing to chance and no time to wait and see how a situation will unfold.
A very biased statement.

People just want the heavily controlled and fast paced gameplay that is intense and enjoyable to play.

Increasing chance reduces control, and the small amounts of time that are waited can be some of the most crucial seconds.
In a game like smash brothers, it's not every second that counts. It's every frame that counts. Waiting those extremely short times is the difference between combos linking together, making just the right move, outplaying your opponent, or even winning the game.

Physically, not much time has passed at all in 4 seconds, but in smash, that could be a literal eternity and like I already said, the difference between victory and defeat.

The consensus began to preach that if you wanted to maximize your chances of winning at Brawl, you has to minimize your chance of tripping by dashing as little as possible. This lead the most dedicated Brawl players to master the art of playing defensively,
I haven't played competitive brawl, but I just don't believe that this is true.

The reason for defensive play is because it's strategically bad to play offensively all the time in Brawl. You will get punished for it, regardless of tripping.

If tripping was in melee, it wouldn't of suddenly turned the game into defensive central, the only thing it would of did is lower the effectiveness of dash dancing and you would see people only resorting to it when they are trying to pressure the opponent or evade oncoming attacks as opposed to doing it even when it's not necessary.

Tripping doesn't fit in a culture that values winning and being in control over experiencing new things and overcoming new problems. This is why I love it. Tripping forces the players and the spectators to remain on the edge of their seats all the time, watching and wondering if something "unfair" is about to happen, and what that will lead to. Tripping just means you can't just follow a series of recipes from the "How to win at Smash Bros" cookbook. It means you have to be ready for anything.
Opinionated statement.

Not everyone enjoys watching unfair things in games, even in real games. he makes an allusion to the elements of nature being present in sports, but if it was possible, those elements would be removed in order to make the game more fair for everyone.

Even without tripping you can't follow that recipe. The game is dynamic and ever changing. The fact that he doesn't know this shows how unversed he is with the game itself.

In Brawl, every dash is a test of character, a display of willingness to play the odds. That kind of acceptance of random elements is what elevates a game to a sport.
Starcraft exists as a complete contradiction to that statement.

Or would he like it if everyone played with partially broken keyboards as well?

They're willing to face the fact that in sports and in real life, some amount of chaos and discomfort is inevitable. It's their love of the game and their passion for self improvement that pushes them to face their fear of the unknown.
Because there is nothing that they, or the people they work for, can do anything about.

They face those things because that's the rules of the game they play. Those variables exist and they have to take it into account. Not because they want to, but because they have to. A Video game doesn't have to adhere to those standards because it's something that you can create. Those type of things don't have to exist and in the end, make the game fairer for everyone.

A game where 1/50, or even 1/5 dashes lead to a trip would be an exciting, hilarious decent into barbarism.
For about the first few seconds it might be funny or "LOLOLOL XDDDD U TRIPPED" but overall the game will become unenjoyable because of bad design choices.

And this article maker as a watcher might think it's funny to even watch, but after a bit it will be stale because of this design choice.

Ugh, I don't know why I'm even trying with this guy. It's like he would be more excited from a football player slipping on something than another football player taking him down.

Even better than that would be a mode that punishes players for attacking an opponent after they've taken a random fall. We instituted a system like this back at my local arcade when Street Fighter 2 was new. Everyone who played in our town knew each other, and we all agreed that throws were against our rules, as they were "too cheap".

It may be hard to imagine that kind of sportsmanship in today's world of online rage quitting and near constant anonymous trash talk, but that's the way it was.
Home rules are not good for the competitive scene.

At my own home I don't edgehog, it's not interesting and makes the fights less intense. I could see the same thing for grabs in traditional fighters as well since I feel the same way at home.

However, he says it's "Too cheap" with the quotations so at least he understands the same as I do that those moves have very valid and strategic uses in a competitive environment.

To have those kinds of rules built into the next Smash Bros could make for an extremely interesting dynamic. If you take a "cheap" hit on an opponent and a red or yellow card is thrown in, you're going to have to face consequences. Maybe the player who was fouled on would get a free Smash Ball attack in compensation, or worse, the offending player may be removed from the game. In Ice Hockey (both in real life and on the NES), those kinds of risks are taken regularly, sometimes as part of a larger strategy. It may be smarter to take out a particularly opposing player with a cheap shot, even if it means being taking out of the game with them. That kind of thing is a lot grosser in real life, as it's real people getting physically assaulted, but in Smash Bros, it's just a relatively harmless foray into calculated crime and punishment.
For a fighter, that would be the epitome of bad game design.

That differs from eSports, where every effort is usually made to remove variables that detract from overall "fairness". I'd argue that valuing "fairness" too much only works to make games feel fake. All games, including sports, are based on the way we naturally order our lives. Consciously or subconsciously, we all conceive of arbitrary win states to strive for and rules to follow in order to make those wins "fair." We assess our capacity and our worth by our ability to obtain those wins "fairly." What makes that experience feel "real" is balancing those fixed rules and goals again the mushy, inconsistent nature of existence. Living things are not a series of ones and zeros. We're all amorphous, ever-shifting blobs, whether we like it or not.


I won't argue with this opinion, but I heavily disagree with it to the point where I really want to bang my head into something.

I prefer games that give me the opportunity to safely practice dealing with a flawed, unfair world and an even more flawed, fallible person (myself) than games that work to provide a perfect fantasy where I have total control and predictability.
Ahem.

"Just play Brawl. :troll:"
 

Cap'nChreest

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Come on guys. Everyone likes losing because of tripping though right? Tripping is good game design. It punishes you for approaching in a camping-centric game.
 
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