Ike Video Thread (Critiques Welcome!)

BBG|Scott-Spain

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#1
Kind of odd how we're one of the few character threads without a video section. Figured this would be a good time to start since we've recently seen a good Ike showing at Youmacon.
Youmacon 2014 - Apex Ori vs Ryuga - Losers Eighths - Smash 3DS
Youmacon 2014 - Ryuga vs Kev - Losers Quarters - Smash 3DS
Youmacon 2014 - CT Chibo vs Ryuga - Losers Semis - Smash 3DS
Youmacon 2014 - Ryuga vs LoF Keitaro - Losers Finals - Smash 3DS
Youmacon 2014 - LoF Zinoto vs Ryuga - Grand Finals - Smash 3DS

Feel free to add your own videos for critiques and whatnot or any other videos you see online.
 
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BBG|Scott-Spain

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#6
I think the video archive is meant to be in this thread, but it's easy to miss because it doesn't say so in the title.
Yeah, I didn't realize that. I didn't mean to step on any toes if I did. I'm thinking we can delegate theory and matchup specifics with that thread, using video as proofs of concept while this can serve as a general video dump thread for Ike.

It'd be easier on me, I'm fine with it :)
I'm more than happy to take some weight off your shoulders. You've done quite a bit for Ike mains already. :)

I plan on updating and reformatting as more vids come in.

Also, stickie pls?
 

Nysyarc

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#8
I think if there's gonna end up being a lot of videos in the OP though, you might not want to embed them. Or maybe use collapse/spoiler tags for the embedded version. It would just be a lot to scroll through.
 

Zatchiel

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#13
Here are more gameplay videos of my Ike. I'm still learning what works and what doesn't and as always, critiques are welcomed.

Ike vs Captain Falcon: http://youtu.be/JjTWKOyuV8g

Ike vs Diddy Kong: http://youtu.be/xCpNF6YFMtU

Ike vs Zero Suit Samus: http://youtu.be/rdJcvDMBi1w
In general:

-You use down smash a lot more than any Ike I've ever seen. From my experience it's not a bad mix-up against players that like to roll around a ton but it is by no means spammable. More times than not there's actually a better option than d-smashing anyway.

-You just sat there charging quickdraw kinda often. I don't see the point behind this, particularly when your opponent isn't likely to die from the fully charged QD even if they took the hit. Even if it would kill them it is overall very risky with the promise of negligible reward; if it gets shielded (which isn't hard to do by baiting QD release with a shield drop -> optional walk or short hop out of shield -> fast fall -> shield again) then you're going to take a full punish. Whereas if they get hit then the most you're dealing is 13%. Almost all of Ike's non-specials will give you that anyway, just to give you some perspective.

-Your use of counter seemed a little careless. If any of your opponents had any patience to read into your use of that you would be getting punished even harder than you would from a shielded quickdraw potentially. If you're being pressured into using counter so much then make more considerations. There are generally safer and more rewarding ways to punish aggression. The only time I throw out counter is for either obviously deadly attacks that my opponent throws out stupidly or for predictable aggression where countering will get them (back) offstage. I even very seldom do the former unless it's something like the uncommonly used Warlock Punch; throwing out counter in front of an opponent charging a smash attack is dangerous unless you've accounted for when they will have to release it.

-I think you're a lot... jumpier than you need to be. It would be a lot less concerning if you were just short hopping mainly but you were jumping about the place making yourself an impressionable target. Resist the urge to jump so much.

With that in mind, I'm going to be a little more specific to match-ups now.

Against Falcon: Try to keep your feet on or near the ground, especially if Falcon is on the ground too. If that's the case the highest you should ever be off of the ground is short-hopping distance for clean aerial punishes. The only time I'd suggest going as high as a full hop and such is to follow up after down throw/down tilt or you have confidence in chasing Falco

Against Diddy: Did you not notice how often he was just blindly dashing in and fishing for grabs? You can bait that and use it to your advantage. A solid grab or a neutral air would've opened up an opportunity to get him offstage and start an assault for keeping him there at the ledge. When you go for eruption ledgeguards keep in mind how long it could actually take for him to come back. You took fully charged eruption damage for no reason at one point. You also threw out forward smash a couple of times where it didn't seem appropriate at all.

Against Zero Suit: When you get her into the air, chase her down relentlessly. If you let her reset to neutral she's going to be a pain in the ass to catch again. Also, this player in particular has a distinguishable habit of rolling and dash attacking, both just begging to be taken advantage of. Other than that he or she seems pretty competent. There was a point during the match where you were charging eruption and she ledge jumped into a down air. If you had released that it would've been a free kill for her silly decision to challenge it that way. At about 1:38 you take a forward air and die immediately after spending your second jump, which was unnecessary to begin with. When you're offstage, conserving your midair jump can be crucial. Use it more wisely if you're going to use it at all. Otherwise, just grab the ledge. That b-air after your airdodge at around 3:02 was beautiful by the way.

Overall you could be playing a lot more carefully. Think about your choices more and consider how your opponent is approaching the match-up themselves.
 
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megamain

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#14
In general:

-You use down smash a lot more than any Ike I've ever seen. From my experience it's not a bad mix-up against players that like to roll around a ton but it is by no means spammable. More times than not there's actually a better option than d-smashing anyway.

-You just sat there charging quickdraw kinda often. I don't see the point behind this, particularly when your opponent isn't likely to die from the fully charged QD even if they took the hit. Even if it would kill them it is overall very risky with the promise of negligible reward; if it gets shielded (which isn't hard to do by baiting QD release with a shield drop -> optional walk or short hop out of shield -> fast fall -> shield again) then you're going to take a full punish. Whereas if they get hit then the most you're dealing is 13%. Almost all of Ike's non-specials will give you that anyway, just to give you some perspective.

-Your use of counter seemed a little careless. If any of your opponents had any patience to read into your use of that you would be getting punished even harder than you would from a shielded quickdraw potentially. If you're being pressured into using counter so much then make more considerations. There are generally safer and more rewarding ways to punish aggression. The only time I throw out counter is for either obviously deadly attacks that my opponent throws out stupidly or for predictable aggression where countering will get them (back) offstage. I even very seldom do the former unless it's something like the uncommonly used Warlock Punch; throwing out counter in front of an opponent charging a smash attack is dangerous unless you've accounted for when they will have to release it.

-I think you're a lot... jumpier than you need to be. It would be a lot less concerning if you were just short hopping mainly but you were jumping about the place making yourself an impressionable target. Resist the urge to jump so much.

With that in mind, I'm going to be a little more specific to match-ups now.

Against Falcon: Try to keep your feet on or near the ground, especially if Falcon is on the ground too. If that's the case the highest you should ever be off of the ground is short-hopping distance for clean aerial punishes. The only time I'd suggest going as high as a full hop and such is to follow up after down throw/down tilt or you have confidence in chasing Falco

Against Diddy: Did you not notice how often he was just blindly dashing in and fishing for grabs? You can bait that and use it to your advantage. A solid grab or a neutral air would've opened up an opportunity to get him offstage and start an assault for keeping him there at the ledge. When you go for eruption ledgeguards keep in mind how long it could actually take for him to come back. You took fully charged eruption damage for no reason at one point. You also threw out forward smash a couple of times where it didn't seem appropriate at all.

Against Zero Suit: When you get her into the air, chase her down relentlessly. If you let her reset to neutral she's going to be a pain in the *** to catch again. Also, this player in particular has a distinguishable habit of rolling and dash attacking, both just begging to be taken advantage of. Other than that he or she seems pretty competent. There was a point during the match where you were charging eruption and she ledge jumped into a down air. If you had released that it would've been a free kill for her silly decision to challenge it that way. At about 1:38 you take a forward air and die immediately after spending your second jump, which was unnecessary to begin with. When you're offstage, conserving your midair jump can be crucial. Use it more wisely if you're going to use it at all. Otherwise, just grab the ledge. That b-air after your airdodge at around 3:02 was beautiful by the way.

Overall you could be playing a lot more carefully. Think about your choices more and consider how your opponent is approaching the match-up themselves.
Sometimes, oddly enough when I go for a FTilt a FSmash comes out instead. Still haven't gotten it quite yet.

I'm also still learning the timing for edge guarding with Eruption against different characters. Some like Pit are really easy but Zamus has me for a loop most of the time haha

The charging of Quick Draw is supposed to be to close in without rolling or jumping but I do forget how long to charge it and that leads to me over charging at times.

I have a weird habit of inputting diagonal down B instead of side B to escape and that's why I there were some times of countering that seemed off. I've gotten a teeny bit better because I was worse before.

Im not confident about chasing people off the stage just yet. That's definitely something I have to practice more.

Thanks for your input by the way!
 
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#18
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Kimchi

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#22
You need to work on your OoS game dramatically. Either that or your split-second decision-making.There were times when you held your shield for almost as long as 5 seconds, (the most notable example was when I saw Renegade basically rolling around you twice and then walking up and getting a free grab on you.) It should never take you that long to think about what to do and holding shield for a longer period of time just leaves you vulnerable. OoS Bair should be something you should really consider using more when your opponent's behind you(only saw you use it in one game or two.) Very safe on retreat (you can reverse jab as soon as the frames end on landing) and has great knockback. Another OoS option in that situation to consider would be reverse jab (though this requires you to practice a bit.)

I saw what you were trying to do with Counter whenever Renegade tried to get back on stage, which I thought wasn't a bad idea. Besides that, I felt you threw out the move a bit too liberally. Left you wide open for punishes whenever you whiffed and while it did garner you some kills here or there, one has to wonder if safer fail-safe options like aerials, which would have accomplished the same effect, would have been better.

Just some of the biggest things I noticed that cost you a lot of matches.
 
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#23
Lol my mac has been revealed. Pretty much what Kimchi said. But you gotta bait mac into doing things he doesn't want to do. The scariest bait in my opinion from ike is when he jumps away but he has his back turned to me so I dunno if he's just gonna land or bair my face open, you then fake bair land and quickly grab me... That right there is probably one of his scariest bait tactics in that match and probably all other matches.
 
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#24
You need to work on your OoS game dramatically. Either that or your split-second decision-making.There were times when you held your shield for almost as long as 5 seconds, (the most notable example was when I saw Renegade basically rolling around you twice and then walking up and getting a free grab on you.) It should never take you that long to think about what to do and holding shield for a longer period of time just leaves you vulnerable. OoS Bair should be something you should really consider using more when your opponent's behind you(only saw you use it in one game or two.) Very safe on retreat (you can reverse jab as soon as the frames end on landing) and has great knockback. Another OoS option in that situation to consider would be reverse jab (though this requires you to practice a bit.)

I saw what you were trying to do with Counter whenever Renegade tried to get back on stage, which I thought wasn't a bad idea. Besides that, I felt you threw out the move a bit too liberally. Left you wide open for punishes whenever you whiffed and while it did garner you some kills here or there, one has to wonder if safer fail-safe options like aerials, which would have accomplished the same effect, would have been better.

Just some of the biggest things I noticed that cost you a lot of matches.
I tried a few things differently here and tried to leave less openings than before. Also attempted better gimping. You can see some improvements in the last few videos if you'd prefer to watch those.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WC-oGNyea5w
http://youtu.be/Il5AoYgwdCM
http://youtu.be/lyVhAt62g2c
http://youtu.be/dVyFAaoZgTM
http://youtu.be/61k7NiGAeEE
http://youtu.be/zkeY2qWHaRA
http://youtu.be/Tg8iCCz3D88
http://youtu.be/5mJixGPlTHE
http://youtu.be/2gkiVqOomWs
http://youtu.be/wOMxRYBgtXg
http://youtu.be/UzKLaiqlBOU
http://youtu.be/SMrYT5-w6yc
http://youtu.be/Pl08qq1HN3I

Things that still happened:

-Little Mac could still read my landing, track it, and USmash me without giving me much defense. I used no attacks or air-dodges while I landed, planning to fast-fall into a shield instead.
-When he came down to recover, he passed right by my Fair
-Still had no respect for my incoming Bair, punishing with USmash or FTilt instead.
 
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#25
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyVhAt62g2c&feature=youtu.be

Skip to 1:37... That's why you don't bair lil mac Out of shield, It will whiff. Mac was even on an incline so it made mac a lil bit taller and it still whiffed him. Ike did an Out of shield bair and I punished with upsmash ending the game. You gotta be like right on mac for that to land but with spacing it will never work.

EDIT:::

Lol after looking at that sequence I saw that ikes bair just grazed lil mac. They nerfed ikes hitbox on bair because in brawl that would have landed.
 
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#26
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Trunks159

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#28
(first link) Against Sheik, eruption really isn't going to work.

I think you let Sheik recover a little too easily so Sheik pretty much took field control way too often. Be more patient and wait at the edge more with nairs (no fast fall) and sheilds, and only sometimes go off stage.
 
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#29
Gotcha. I'll keep that in mind. My latest troubles have been against Meta Knight and Bowser.

Meta Knight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E-g7RS0I7M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RTRsIzjKy4

Bowser:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giWXGGbN4Zg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr46Rp17_sM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZhusuMAaHk

Edit: Adding Diddy to this mix. I played MCPE and his Diddy's reads are lethal. I need serious help on this matchup.

Diddy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA5OIEVw2-w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0wALZMQiQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=695AGIEWwT8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9NeS8D-ub8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYPZD0OTmns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDk4nX14aic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYl0uW_BcxI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqFYuous3HU

Again, any help is greatly appreciated, and thank you. I feel like I'm wasting moves that get me punished, not zoning properly, and not edgeguarding properly. Plus I'm having trouble recovering back on stage.
 
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#30
Durango, with Meta Knight I noticed you liked to try to meet him in the air quite a bit. Meta Knight is at a severe advantage there, especially if he is below you. His up-b can be lethal at lower percentages if he hits you with both swings. You want to minimize how much time you spend in the air with him as much as you can. Also, I noticed you didn't use Counter very much. It can be easy to punish if used too much, but most of MK's off-stage recoveries have long wind-ups and require him to be very committed. I find that a well placed counter there instead of meeting him off-stage or going for eruption is much more detrimental to him.

Only other thing I can recommend is that this particular MK player did like to use Mach Tornado quite a bit when you tried to get around him, and quite often he would end up being above you. You blocked it very well, but a good Up-Smash would have ended him as a follow-up.
 
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#31
When it comes to Diddy Kong, what I can recommend is only a few things. You want to constantly be mixing things up, whether it's recovering from the ledge, from off-stage or from the air during one of his combos. I saw a lot of rolling from the edge when returning, which he was constantly spaced for to punish. During the later matches, he would anticipate your QD recoveries and start placing bananas as traps to trip you up or force you to the ledge for the roll recoveries. When landing from being juggled, he'd bait you to airdodge so the landing lag would force you to sit there for a grab. Using n-air to force him back, or teching the landing and rolling away would help you return to neutral. The only other thing I can see is that when he would use his U-air combo while you were at lower %'s, he was relying on you to try to air dodge or move the same way he was jumping so he could hit you with the next one. A well placed counter would have nailed him, as he would have been continuing his upward momentum and landing right in range of your sword.

Hope this stuff helps.
 
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#32
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Yoh

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#33
vs. Wario
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgbE3ObmJXo
dunno about the matchup, never played it before in Smash 4, tried to play it like in Brawl, sadly we forgot to record the other 2, but still better than nothing


vs. Toon Link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyaOjWPztwA
I think I need more patience here and need to get better at shielding, also I think I approached to much from the air, could be better to stay more grounded but I don´t know.

Any help/critique is welcomed.
 
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#34
A bit more grabs and DTilt for spacing against Wario. And instead of trying to edgeguard him, bait his recovery. Here's the formula.

When you knock someone off the ledge and they're coming back, stand near the edge and put your shield up when they snap.

-If you're waiting for them to come up neutral, grab and FThrow
-If you're waiting for a roll, short-hop backwards into Nair.
-If you're waiting for a jump, nair.
-If you choose to not shield or use it as a punish waiting for an attack, powershield when they do attack and FTilt or DTilt into Fair/Nair.

This is literally what helped me against my fight with LordMix. He uses Meta Knight and Bowser and he fell for it many times. I saw you use a couple of those on Toon Link, though, but I'm giving you the formula since it might cover a few more options.

Personally, I'd like to play S!C. If he plays online, tell him Rango challenged him.
 
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#35
Yoh, I can also recommend mixing up some of Ike's tried and true edge guarding in there to make sure he stays on his toes. Eruption is a great way to prevent lower recoveries from hitting that edge, and Counter is a great thing against his bloody motorcycle. The recommendations that Durango and I have would work well against Toon Link as well as Wario, since quite a few of Links recovery options can be baited for a good punish.

You have a great grasp of Ike's defensive abilities, but would often forget to punish when the opponent whiffs or hits your shield. I'd recommend drilling a few moves into your OoS options so you can use them with Muscle memory, then you'd just have to pick your favorites and have some snappy punishes. Good ones to use for Ike when speed is necessary are d-tilts, jabs and sometimes Aether if you think they may be expecting it and try to sidestep. Good kill moves to use against blocking/dodging slow moves are Up-smash, or you could use a N-air or F-air to give yourself some space.

I'd also recommend mixing a few counters into your defensive options, as it can be a great way to get some breathing room and set people up for combos when they least expect it. You don't want to abuse it, but not using it at all is missing a big part of Ike's game, which is to make them afraid of you.
 

Yoh

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#36
Yoh, I can also recommend mixing up some of Ike's tried and true edge guarding in there to make sure he stays on his toes. Eruption is a great way to prevent lower recoveries from hitting that edge, and Counter is a great thing against his bloody motorcycle. The recommendations that Durango and I have would work well against Toon Link as well as Wario, since quite a few of Links recovery options can be baited for a good punish.

You have a great grasp of Ike's defensive abilities, but would often forget to punish when the opponent whiffs or hits your shield. I'd recommend drilling a few moves into your OoS options so you can use them with Muscle memory, then you'd just have to pick your favorites and have some snappy punishes. Good ones to use for Ike when speed is necessary are d-tilts, jabs and sometimes Aether if you think they may be expecting it and try to sidestep. Good kill moves to use against blocking/dodging slow moves are Up-smash, or you could use a N-air or F-air to give yourself some space.

I'd also recommend mixing a few counters into your defensive options, as it can be a great way to get some breathing room and set people up for combos when they least expect it. You don't want to abuse it, but not using it at all is missing a big part of Ike's game, which is to make them afraid of you.
Okay, I will try to add this stuff to my gameplay.

I also noticed this, that I let him go to often without a punish, I guess I was to afraid to throw them out, since I still don´t have the right timing and thought he would punish me too hard if I miss them.

Hm Counter was always a move I did not like so much, but I guess this also comes from brawl, here you can actually use it sometimes.

thx guys
 
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#37
With Fox, Ike has to be careful when in the air. Fox thrives against aerial targets since a lot of his moves have little ending lag, so you'll want to minimize some of your airtime. If you get caught in a combo, keeping calm and using DI will help save you. An extension of this is to watch for his grabs, since they hit decent but more because they'll get you airborne. Not much I can say to prevent this except that your jab is about as fast as most of his moves, so don't be afraid to use it on a grab-happy Fox.

With edge guarding, I feel that baiting his recoveries and countering would have been more effective than Eruption. Eruption is still useful against his Up-B when recovering low (especially if he knows how to sweet spot the edge), but when approaching from the side Counter can easily caught his Side-B and Up-B. If he's anticipating that, which a few times in the beginning he was, he'll try to be closer to you so the end of his Side-B zips out of your range. Perfect Shielding it, then grabbing him and throwing back off the ledge is a good strategy to keep him in a slight panic. (Started doing this in the last 2 fights, which is why he started mixing up his approach during recovery)

You'll want to study his range and speed more, as you had some great opportunities to punish him on whiffs but had a hard time landing them because he had a better understanding of how your range for different moves worked compared to his speed. ( I think you saw some of what I'm talking about to, as you're play style adapted later on to anticipate this more.) I feel with this, practice is your best tactic.

Lastly, watch out for repeated edge grabs without touching the ground. If I'm remembering this right, you're invulnerability is only for the first grab. He saw that you had a pattern with juggling Aethers from the edge and eventually punished you for it. It's a cool move, and catches quite a few by surprise but gets predictable easily (plus with the slow wind up can be easily punished once they start to predict it). A rising N-air could possibly be something to mix into your edge fighting, or if you want to get fancy a rising Counter if you expect him to try to punish.

I will say one last thing though, and that is to not be afraid of his lasers. I'm not saying that dodging them isn't a good idea, but since they don't have any knockback and he has to put his blaster away before doing any actions you can get close fairly easily for some beatdowns. Staying back a little to make him think you're afraid of his blaster, and then rushing up and smacking him around is a good way to catch a fox player by surprise since his timing will be based on your defense. He needs you at a higher % to kill than you need, so if you've got him at a good % chancing the lasers for the surprise can be a good way to make him scared to use it for racking up damage.

I think you were a lot closer to your opponent in skill then you believe, which is why most of your matches were so close. I know it's a wall of text, but it's all smaller stuff that I fear needs more details than just saying "Watch the air and mixup the recoveries". Hope it helps.
 
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#38
Ike's Counter isn't nearly as slow as it was in Brawl. It still isn't something you want to use too often unless your opponent has some really telling strategies, but when mixed in a couple of times during a match you can force them to be more fearful of approaching you and force them to get uncomfortable.
 
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#40
Yeah, it's For Glory, but hey. Some experience is better than no experience, right? :p
There's a second part that I'll update this with later.
 
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