Ike Needs A Buff

[Y-L]

His fsmash can kill at like 30 lol you shouldn't be using it unless it's a hard read or an edgeguard and he doesn't need to heal, especially because it's not hard to edgestall with it if you can sweet spot the ledge. Ike is generally fine where he is and doesn't need any major changes.

 

[TylerX5]

also ike's forward smash is pretty slow it should be sped up a little

Ganon's Uptilt in Melee was slow, Falcon punch is slow, Ike's Fsmash? Considering people can punish recovery air doges on reaction with it I'm going to have to say it's not slow.

 

[TylerX5]

Also for anyone having trouble against Falco if you can power shield 1/10 lasers the match-up basically becomes even considering how much Damage Ike can get off of 1 throw (0-50%+ under the right circumstances) and how predictable (thus gimpable) Falco's Recovery is. It's one of those match-ups though where you can easily be 4 stocked or you can easily 4 stock them

 

[TylerX5]

imo Link, Toon Link, Rob, Zelda, Diddy kong (Bananas are from hell), Mario, Ivysaur, ZZS, Samus, Lucas, Ness, and especially Pit all have projectiles that in their respective match-ups are more troubles for Ike to deal with than his match-up against Falco. I'm not saying those projectiles are used more, or that they cause more damage than Falco's overall but rather how they're used is more effective at hurting Ike's chances for winning than Falco's Laser.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

imo Link, Toon Link, Rob, Zelda, Diddy kong (Bananas are from hell), Mario, Ivysaur, ZZS, Samus, Lucas, Ness, and especially Pit all have projectiles that in their respective match-ups are more troubles for Ike to deal with than his match-up against Falco. I'm not saying those projectiles are used more, or that they cause more damage than Falco's overall but rather how they're used is more effective at hurting Ike's chances for winning than Falco's Laser.

... Not at all. Falco can put out his lasers a lot faster and with absurdly little travel time and lag. The safety, speed and 'spammability' of the move makes it a loooot more trouble than any of the other characters (also did you seriously list every single projectile user and say Falco gives Ike less trouble than them all? That's ... pretty absurd.) Honestly, if you're arguing that powershielding Falco's lasers makes the match-up better, every character you've listed has a much slower projectile for PS'ing.

1. The Links put out a maze of projectiles, but they are clankable, slow enough to deflect and unsafe at close range. Ike has enough aerial mobility, quick draw and a large disjoint, all tools that help him greatly in the match-up. There's plenty of other characters who the Links completely choke out, a lot worse.

2. Mario is the only one that comes close to Falco, but Fireballs being slow and clankable as well as much easier to weave/QD through than the network of hitboxes the Links put out makes Fireballs easy enough to deal with.

3. Oh, I see you left out Wolf, Fox, Peach and Luigi.

4. R.o.B has three angles for a laser at varying heights. It's a pretty good move for sniping, but can't be spammed and needs to be charged. Gyro is also threatening, but nowhere comparable to Falco lasers, especially since catch to AGT/Glide toss is so much easier than a PS.

5. Diddy's Banana's have proper counter-play in this game. Sethlon's Roy exposes how much more manageable Diddy becomes when you can properly deal with his item play. You'll probably never be as good with items as a Diddy mains but it's a necessary skill to cultivate, between bombs, bananas, grenades, gyros, turnips ...

6. ZSS's Paralyzer is hardly spammable and is literally slow enough to run away from. It gets points for being transcendent, I guess.

7. Samus is scary and can choke out Ike pretty effectively with missiles, charge shot and Zair, without even taking into account her other shenanigans. I'll give you this one.

8. Pit's arrows are lol onstage and cry offstage. The trick is always DI'ing in to the stage and early Side-B's. Wall-jumps and going low help out a lot as well.

9. PKFire is pretty good, but good SDI is even more important than good item play. It's part of the match-up. It's also slow enough to run away from, easier to powershield than lasers and has lol range. Dashdancing a certain distance from Ness can easily bait out a PK Fire and allow you punish with good reaction, between Ike's good mobility and quick draw.

10. PKFreeze's biggest problem isn't the projectile itself, which is clankable, not absurdly fast and without great range. It's that it comes attached to Lucas. I might give you this one but PK Freeze is not the worst thing about the Ike/Lucas match-up at all.

11. Razor Leaf might be the easiest projectile to PS in the entire game. And you can just Nair or FTilt it. Easiest projectile to deal with ever.

12. Din's isn't a projectile. If you see Zelda putting a Din's out in neutral, QD up and punish her. You're in considerably more trouble off-stage, but still, Din's are just a better version of Snake's mines with less KB.

 

[TylerX5]

That's some really solid match-up advise

Although vehemently disagree with you about Pit's Arrows, A good pit knows how to use them wisely on stage, and accurately off the stage.

I feel I need to restate my main point though, Falco's lasers by themselves are probably the best projectile in the game period (with Pit's Arrows coming in close second), but in the context of the Ike match-up they are not as powerful as a winning force because of how well Ike combos Falco, where as in other match-ups with characters that have projectiles and a lack of high combo potential from Ike their usage as a mild-severe spacing tool makes the match up much harder.

 

[TylerX5]

I fully recant my statement about falco's lasers, boy was I wrong

 

[RomanCenturionX]

Can we please have a shield that covers Ike's ankles at the very least, I mean it doesn't have to cover his whole body but I just want a shield that is a little better than what we have now.

 

[TylerX5]

Can we please have a shield that covers Ike's ankles at the very least, I mean it doesn't have to cover his whole body but I just want a shield that is a little better than what we have now.

Have you tried shield tilting?

 

[TylerX5]

Ike's jab 1 should get an extra hitbox on the knee so it won't wiff on crouching characters that are too close (like Sheik, squirtle)

 

[King of Hoboz]

Ike's jab 1 should get an extra hitbox on the knee so it won't wiff on crouching characters that are too close (like Sheik, squirtle)

Actually, I've been thinking about this. I kind of hope that if Ike got any buffs/changes ever again, it would be for his jab to act more fox-like, and by that I mean it's better at lifting people off the ground, instead of being so easy to crouch cancel.

 

[Y-L]

Have you tried shield tilting?

Shield tilting certainly helps, but after shield is weakened just a little bit his feet will again not be protected. This is a pretty major flaw for a character that does not handle projectiles well at all, cannot handle shield pressure, and has zero OoS options so I believe his shield deserves to be extended to his ankles at least.

 

[TylerX5]

Shield tilting certainly helps, but after shield is weakened just a little bit his feet will again not be protected. This is a pretty major flaw for a character that does not handle projectiles well at all, cannot handle shield pressure, and has zero OoS options so I believe his shield deserves to be extended to his ankles at least.

Honestly I've only had my shield broken 3 time in 100 hours of play. I think you might be over using it. And Practice power shielding. It's not too hard to do in this game!

 

[TylerX5]

Shield tilting certainly helps, but after shield is weakened just a little bit his feet will again not be protected. This is a pretty major flaw for a character that does not handle projectiles well at all, cannot handle shield pressure, and has zero OoS options so I believe his shield deserves to be extended to his ankles at least.

As for an OoS? His options are limited but remember you can C-stick Buffer a frame perfect Roll or Spotdodge, Shield jump > Wave dash, Shield DI, and Shield Jump > Nair is effect sometimes

 

[Y-L]

Honestly I've only had my shield broken 3 time in 100 hours of play. I think you might be over using it. And Practice power shielding. It's not too hard to do in this game!

I'm not talking about getting Ike's shield broken I'm talking it getting weakened to the point where he gets shield poked even with shield di, it doesn't take much.
Also I don't really think it's fair to say every character can handle projectiles well because powershield.

As for an OoS? His options are limited but remember you can C-stick Buffer a frame perfect Roll or Spotdodge, Shield jump > Wave dash, Shield DI, and Shield Jump > Nair is effect sometimes

By no OoS options yes I'm aware that you can buffer roll out of your shield (rolling is generally not the best option) wd is pretty much the only option (fortunately Ike has an average wd) but nair is out of the question. It comes out way too slow to be considered an oos option against pressure. The only move that would be viable oos is bair but you would have to autocancel it (send it out only a few frames after jumpsquat) and even then that only works on like half the cast and they need to be behind you.

 

[TylerX5]

1. Ike's weakness is pressure, his strength is spacing. You need to learn to avoid being pressured.

2. I didn't mean to imply Nair OoS was a good option, it's just one of the best tool's Ike has and if the opponent's spacing is off it is usable

3. Rolling isn't a good option but sometimes it's the best one you have

4. Auto canceling is when you either land during the first few frames of an aerial move or the last few frames of an aerial move (assuming the move is Auto-cancelable) which in stead of going into the move's normal landing lag (or L-cancel lag) it will cancel into normal landing lag (this happens whenever you land with Ike while not in an action, or wave dash, it's 4 frames)

5. Bair OoS is actually good if the spacing is right and your timing is crisp (and the character isn't too short haha)

 

[SpiderMad]

When you wavedash you go into specialfalllanding and that's 10 frames of lag not the regular landing lag

 

[TylerX5]

When you wavedash you go into specialfalllanding and that's 10 frames of lag not the regular landing lag

Never knew this. Are there other situations where Special landing lag goes into effect?

 

[TylerX5]

When you wavedash you go into specialfalllanding and that's 10 frames of lag not the regular landing lag

Also was I correct about autocanceling?

 

[SpiderMad]

Other than "in stead", yes. Normal landing lag can vary based on character just like jumpsquat though it's usually 4.

I just know Airdodge puts you into 10 frames upon landing, other specials that put you into specialfall vary I think
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjjVqqbCLfw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeLklmmYyNk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtOSf5iZhnY#t=481
http://smashboards.com/threads/understanding-auto-cancels-and-iasa-concerning-up-air-bair.332160/

 

[9bit]

I just want to be able to jump out of Quick Draw at any time. I think it was silly to nerf it to only being able to do it after 7 frames or whatever it is now

 

[NWRL]

QD needs to be JC on frame 1

 

[TylerX5]

It's JC on frame 3 (i.e. after 2 frames you can JC) of an uncharged QD, and Since Ike has a Jumpsquat of 5 frames that means he won't be in the air until frame 7 at the earliest ( 2+5=7). There are 2 ways to make it JC on frame 1. Firstly we can make QD have no start-up time, secondly we can allow Ike to jump during the 2 frames of start up.

If we went with option 1 that would make QD a bit better, but perhaps require a slight reduction to it's damage if not charged

If went with option 2 that wouldn't really make a big difference now would it?

 

[GP&B]

Personally, I'd buff any of Ike's standing options if anything.

 

[TylerX5]

I'd make Dtilt a bit fast or give it more frame advantage on block.

 

[Defile]

Ike needs to be buffed! He has such a hard time getting kills, his range is terrible, his attacks are so weak, and it takes so long for him to get from one end of the stage to the other! Plus, his grab game is awful. What was the PMBR thinking?

Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

 

[Weeabro]

Ike needs to be buff. Not buffed.

 

[TylerX5]

There seems to be this attitude that Ike is a well rounded character and therefore needs no buffs. While it is true he is well rounded that doesn't there aren't areas where he could use slight improvements on, and we should definitely be up for discussing it. Like I said before his Jab 1 should have a hitbox on the knee to hit lower opponents, and I do think Ike should be able to jump out of QD on frame 1 of activation (after the start-up) so it's a bit more usable on smaller stages.

 

[Weeabro]

Improve his jump squat, make his QD JC on frame 1, and improve the the IASA frames on dtilt so he has a safer option for CC and shield pressure. That's all I would change tbh oh and fix his shield that **** is too small


But I definitely agree with your point.

 

[Commander]

Improve his jump squat, make his QD JC on frame 1, and improve the the IASA frames on dtilt so he has a safer option for CC and shield pressure. That's all I would change tbh oh and fix his shield that **** is too small


But I definitely agree with your point.

In 2.6b Ike had earlier IASA frames on Dtilt. The only thing it did was make dtilt>dtilt>Utilt a combo. It was silly. Dtilt>Utilt is still a combo btw. QD should not have an earlier jump cancel window. The move has so much power it should have that weakness of still committing to it.

 

[TylerX5]

The move has so much power it should have that weakness of still committing to it.

It already has many weaknesses: Any projectile, and high priority SHFFL moves, and SH's that go over the QD slash

 

[Commander]

It already has many weaknesses: Any projectile, and high priority SHFFL moves, and SH's that go over the QD slash

You can jump out when those present themselves. You have so many options that QD leaves you with very little to commit to. The one thing you commit to when you decide to use it is to move forward and to spend a few frames charging it. You can't use QD without thinking about it first and you shouldn't be allowed to. Ike should be a character that takes thought to play unlike Marth and Roy who I currently view as brain dead characters.

 

[TylerX5]

You can jump out when those present themselves. You have so many options that QD leaves you with very little to commit to. The one thing you commit to when you decide to use it is to move forward and to spend a few frames charging it. You can't use QD without thinking about it first and you shouldn't be allowed to. Ike should be a character that takes thought to play unlike Marth and Roy who I currently view as brain dead characters.

With all do respect you're narrow minded when it comes to Roy and Marth. They are not mindless, they just have a more safe and solid approach game (more so for Marth imo). But let's keep the focus on Ike.

As for QD and projectile, you can't jump out when it's they're already on the way. It severely reduces the effectiveness of that option, he can't QD > WD pressure/bait, and must rely on only using it at opportune moments. It's a weakness but I do believe that is a natural weakness of Ike's playstyle. That said being able to jump a little sooner wouldn't be too OP, after all there is 9 frames of QD start up before the release.