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Ike Needs A Buff
- Thread starter tadget
- Start date
Commander
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2013
- Messages
- 591
How did the lag reduction system even work? I think it would nicer to have a shield that actually covers his feet as I am already dealing with and learning about opponents in shield. The jab combo is actually pretty good for them. The first two weaken the shield a little and the third hit sends a hit box over their entire body so it pokes when ever possible.
metroid1117
Smash Master
Not sure if it's worth bumping the thread to answer this question, but whenever you hit someone's shield, the opponent is sent into shieldstun (when they can't do anything) and you are put into hitlag (when you can't do anything). 2.1 Ike had reduced hitlag modifiers, meaning that even though the opponent experienced full amounts of shieldstun, Ike experienced less hitlag, thus having a greater shield advantage than if he went through the full duration of hitlag (which he does as of 2.5).
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Was that actually a Brawl thing?
metroid1117
Smash Master
No, I don't think so. This mechanic was before I joined the PMBR, so I don't know how or why it came about.
It think Ike should have 0 hitlag on environment hurtboxs (balloon, shy guys). It's very annoying when when I go for a fair combo and I hit a piece of the environment and it misses. I also think Hitlag on shield should be **slightly** reduced for Ike's fair, nair, and bair, but significantly reduced for his dair
Shokio
Netplay 4 Days
I actually can't believe this thread exists. Ike is actually pretty ridiculous in my eyes. For a heavy hitter character, his attack speed is pretty crazy. For such a strong character, he can act out of his attacks insanely fast, and especially his grabs. Not to mention his recovery game..........don't know what the PMBR was thinking with his recoveries.
And then you run into Fox, Falco, Lucas and Diddy. Ike is far from ridiculous
Guel
Smash Journeyman
Being someone who actually plays Ike. Imo he could use a nerf.
PyroTakun
Smash Journeyman
Ike is nowhere near as OP as you make him sound, Jokio.
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Shokio
Netplay 4 Days
I never said he was OP, I said I find him ridiculous. Nobody in PM strikes me as "OP" or "broken", though I'll say that Link to me comes closet.
^I rest my case.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Yeah, you and Guel both gave very well-thought reasons for wanting Ike nerfed, A++ logic, it's not like he's ridiculously vulnerable to semi-spikes on most stages and has absurdly linear recovery options.
Honestly, you should learn to edgeguard Ike instead of whining about it in the Roy forums (of all places).
Guel
Smash Journeyman
If I were to be a bit more specific the exact things I find a bit too strong would be his Ftilt Bair and Dash Attack. Once someone is about 80%+ theyre in kill range to either of those moves. With proper spacing theyre also high reward with little risk.
As far as his recovery goes its extremely fun lol but im sure he could manage with one wall jump instead of two. Especially if you save your jump he could really make it back from anything with delayed and/or nice timing.
Just because I play the character/like the character doesnt mean id purposely ignore his problems be them good or bad. Would rather get the W because of myself not because of the character itself.
As far as his recovery goes its extremely fun lol but im sure he could manage with one wall jump instead of two. Especially if you save your jump he could really make it back from anything with delayed and/or nice timing.
Just because I play the character/like the character doesnt mean id purposely ignore his problems be them good or bad. Would rather get the W because of myself not because of the character itself.
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Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
...
a) If you're killing people with Ike's dash attack at 80%, then you're fighting people with truly abysmal DI. It is nowhere near a kill move and in fact has more vertical knockback in P:M than in Brawl. Coupled with the fact that it's not particularly strong, anyone you fight would have to be DI'ing down in order to be put in a position where they could die. DA is also incredibly unsafe on shield, awkward to space and just not a very good move in general, its best use being a situational throw follow-up. Quick Draw and all the options Ike has out of it sort of makes it obsolete. FTilt is a similar story, it's a powerful tilt but it doesn't kill outright until reasonable percentages. (With proper DI, at least.) I'm not sure how you could justify touching bair at all since it's Ike's fastest kill move and one of his fastest moves period, its strength being counterbalanced by its narrow hitbox. Basically, none of this moves are "high reward little risk", especially the first two with their considerable start-up. Dash Attack in particular is just ... bad.
b) I don't have an opinion on Ike's walljump of QD, there's only a few situations in which a second WJ has helped me out. Usually my DI is good enough to get back with one or abysmal enough that I can't even get back with two. It is however Ike's only way of mixing up his recovery (otherwise it's QD above stage, Aether below) and there is a ton of offstage tech Ike mains have developed that helps his edgeguarding and recovery a ton.
c) "Just because I play the character/like the character doesnt mean id purposely ignore his problems be them good or bad. Would rather get the W because of myself not because of the character itself."
Ike is a perfectly balanced character with rather sizeable flaws to compensate for his strengths. He does not deal well with pressure, has no OoS options to speak of, poor "get off me" options if his space is invaded and a rather unintuitive combo game because his hits are so strong, needing a reliance on both Quick Draw, his throws and spacing to get good strings of attacks. He struggles in plenty of match-ups and is overall a very fair and well-designed character. He has furthermore been through several revisions already, which have seen far stronger and weaker versions of Ike. He's fine where he's sitting. There's no need to sit down and try to find flaws with a balanced character out of some misplaced sense of sportmanship, especially when you make claims as outrageous as his dash attack being 'too strong', 'high reward no risk' or a kill move in any sense of the word.
I'd honestly just suggest finding people who know how to fight Ike, or telling them how, instead of taking their complaints of him being overpowered to heart.
Guel
Smash Journeyman
a) To say someone never lands a dash attack is such bs. Ike is a mindgame character. I land that Dash attack all day.
c) Lets play?
c) Lets play?
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Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Feel free to fly to Ithaca, NY, or address any of the other things I said.
Guel
Smash Journeyman
Well nothing else to be said. If I were to reply to any of the things you listed I would just be repeating my previous post of his ftilt bair etc. Although I will say this. His counter works fine as a "get off me move".
Of course im not going to "fly to Ithaca" to play someone over a forum argument. Vice Versa aswell i doubt you would do the same. However Im sure you have a wii with wifi? A worse but easier solution. An option that would actually happen and is totally doable. Once you build the courage ill be here. Be quick though as wifi drops may 20th? O.~
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Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
The only thing you've done is name three moves, state they're 'too strong' and leave it at that without taking any of Ike's other weaknesses and strengths into account. Which I brought up.
It's also real mature of you to yell "FIGHT ME NUB" when you're unable to muster a proper counter-argument. No, I think I'm done here. I don't have more time to waste on a petulant child.
Sol0ke
Smash Ace
My friends say Ike is op
I tell them how to fight him
They still lose
I tell them how to fight him
They still lose
Commander
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2013
- Messages
- 591
Give no sympathy.
Guel sucks and his friends suck at this game too. Why are you even wasting your time on him? Why was this thread ever brought back up? If Ike was OP tourney results and character usage statistics would reflect that. I think Ike is a mid tier character and your performance with him reflects the tier of player you are and/or the players you play against. Just as it should be in P:M.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
I can't stop myself from telling people why and exactly how wrong they are. It's a problem.
PyroTakun
Smash Journeyman
I see what you did there
His counter doesn't work until 6 frames after it's activated, most jabs will beat that, and anyone with good shield pressure *cough* Spacies *cough* will snuff it out every time. It's only really useful for punishing unsafe follow-ups or poor approaches but not as a "get off me" move.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Also, to harken back to an argument I had with Commander once, your reads have to be on point to use it properly. Grabs, whiffs and simple waiting all beat counter. You know what else grabs beat? Shields. Counter OoS is situational and commonly non-optimal.
Commander
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2013
- Messages
- 591
The debate was solely in regards to the Falco matchup and you were wrong in that debate. I had stated that Ike's counter has the same utility as Marth's does but you said Ike's counter was too slow when in reality both counters start on the same frame and can be used similarly.
Y-L
Smash Champion
It's ridiculous to say Ike is ridiculous. He cannot deal with projectiles/pressure well at all, his shield leaves his feet vulnerable so he is very susceptible to dtilts/dsmashes, and he has no OoS options.
Personally I think his shield should have more coverage due to his already prevalent flaws while being in shield but I understand if that's out of the question.
I actually think his second wall jump is very useful because you can do offstage aerial - > qd wall jump - > another aerial - > qd wall jump aether to recover.
Dash attack sucks for anything but edgeguarding and tech reading so if you're getting hit by it often, let alone dying to it you're doing something wrong.
Bair has a very small vertical hitbox and cannot be used on a lot of characters unless you're falling if they're grounded. It's one of Ike's only fast moves (that has kill potential) and is hard to get so it makes sense that it's rewarding.
Ike is a lot of risk for his reward. You have to space and time well, especially for characters with projectiles, which most characters in the PM cast have.
Ike gets destroyed vs Lucas and Toon Link imo.
Personally I think his shield should have more coverage due to his already prevalent flaws while being in shield but I understand if that's out of the question.
I actually think his second wall jump is very useful because you can do offstage aerial - > qd wall jump - > another aerial - > qd wall jump aether to recover.
Dash attack sucks for anything but edgeguarding and tech reading so if you're getting hit by it often, let alone dying to it you're doing something wrong.
Bair has a very small vertical hitbox and cannot be used on a lot of characters unless you're falling if they're grounded. It's one of Ike's only fast moves (that has kill potential) and is hard to get so it makes sense that it's rewarding.
Ike is a lot of risk for his reward. You have to space and time well, especially for characters with projectiles, which most characters in the PM cast have.
Ike gets destroyed vs Lucas and Toon Link imo.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
... Yeah, I didn't disagree about that. You were telling me that Ike's counter could be used like Marth's in the MU and I was saying that Counter is a terrible idea against a campy Falco who fades away instead of approaching with lasers, because using Counter in that scenario leaves you open for a punish. Counter is a terrible damn idea in general unless your opponent is PC Chris levels of aggressive, and in the air. Counter OoS will always be terrible but I guess it has a surprise factor.
Seriously, I hate Counter. The only time I'd agree it's good is when you ledgehop to the stage with a Counter thus turning a KO attempt back in your opponents face, but even @
metroid1117
only gets away with it like 70% of the time.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
This really can't be overstated.
That is legitimately the only recovery nerf I want. A lot of match-ups will become more tolerable for us once tethers are toned down a bit more. I am a huge advocate of how edge-guardable tethers are here on these boards but I honestly don't think Lucas should have such a good one.
Y-L
Smash Champion
If you ask me the only nerf Lucas needs is his uthrow nerfed.
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Moy
Where's the coffee cake?
Same thing happens with a friend of mine when we play PM, even though he puts no time into learning the new matchups in this game.
Then he just goes Falco and lames me out with lasers.
Y-L
Smash Champion
I think that would be pretty unfair. Ike is a very balanced character. If he were to be buffed at all it would have to be something very very little. Like extending his shield to cover his feet a little better.
