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Ignorance, Sensationalism, and Global Warming

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BFDD

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I don't have a formula, I am basing this off that fact that today's current temperature follows the same pattern of global temperature as it did before humans. This is according to geologists who have studied core samples.

The link I posted earlier shows the temperature rising before the use of hydrocarbons. It unfortunately does not have a graph showing the temperature pattern of the earth that I mentioned earlier. My original source is a lecture, so I don't have links.
 

LordoftheMorning

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To dismiss current conclusions because a true effect turned out to not be dominant, well that's ludicrous.
Except that's not my only premises. I agree that simply bringing up unfulfilled doomsdays isn't enough to discredit GW, but that's why I've also provided you with sources and petitions and real science. You have some okay justifications for the previous end-of-the-world theories, but that still doesn't change the remarkable gain that politicians and the media got for ranting about it.

What happened in the 1970s? Roe v. Wade, and a whole variety of birth control cases. Birth control in general became accepted, not just in the US, but across the world.

Except in third-world countries.


What happened was that significant social change occurred in developed nations, which I gather was the entire point of the "doomsday prediction".
Basically, the argument I made before was something called an Inherency argument. If a call to action is made, and I argue that the social change would already take place, then there's no reason for said action. Because the solution is inherent, no additional action is necessary (unless of course you have billions to earn and elections to win.)

How does THAT respond to my point?

That entire stupid graph is a correlation thing, not related to causation in the slightest.

An Inconvenient Truth was BS anyway, the only thing he got right was the conclusion. Please don't attempt to address mistakes in an inconvenient truth and assume that has any bearing on this debate.

1. It's not stupid, it's science.
2. How the hell can they BS something AND do it in such a way that doesn't even add to the argument of mad-made global warming? If the graph was made-up, then it would be perfect and not have the lag in it. Because the mistake is there, we can assume that the graph IS scientific, and therefore is totally relevant in this debate. And therefore, I win.

THE DEBATE IS OVAR!
Nah jk.


Edit:
This is probably the most reasonable anti-global warming site I have found.


http://brneurosci.org/co2.html
Ooh! Mine! Yesssss! I've been looking for a paper with a format like that that's brief enough for me to use in debate tournaments. We're arguing whether or not we should increase alternative energy incentives. This will help for my negative case. Thank you, sir.

As it stands, the side challenging man-made Global Warming has a lot of real scientific studies going for it.
 

aeghrur

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Why should we be against alternative energy???
The incentives or pros overriding cons in this case makes me feel that we should use alternative energy even if global warming is false.
I remember there was a quote somewhere that said, "Global warming is totally a conspiracy by a government to cause the jumpstarting of our economy, to develop new technology in the 20th century, and to find new, longer lasting, and renewable energy... DON'T LISTEN TO IT!"

:093:
 

BFDD

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Messages
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The incentives or pros overriding cons in this case makes me feel that we should use alternative energy even if global warming is false.
That is a very good point. We really should continue to look for new energy sources. Pollution is pollution, it doesn't really matter if it is actually causing global warming.

However, if global warming is false we can take our time with development. It is better not to rush things if we don't have to.

It raises an interesting question though. Should we divert resources from global warming studies to alternate energy sources? I don't really know how much is actually going into global warming research, but would it be better off just going towards new clean technology. If it is true then we already have the technology to stop it. If it is false then we didn't waste resources looking into a problem that doesn't exist.
 

adumbrodeus

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Except that's not my only premises. I agree that simply bringing up unfulfilled doomsdays isn't enough to discredit GW, but that's why I've also provided you with sources and petitions and real science. You have some okay justifications for the previous end-of-the-world theories, but that still doesn't change the remarkable gain that politicians and the media got for ranting about it.
Which is true, so?



Basically, the argument I made before was something called an Inherency argument. If a call to action is made, and I argue that the social change would already take place, then there's no reason for said action. Because the solution is inherent, no additional action is necessary (unless of course you have billions to earn and elections to win.)
The obvious null hypothesis.

Regardless, in the cases in question, the change was either impossible to predict (a legal change with tremendous social implications) or taken as a result of the warnings.

In the final case, whether or not anything would've happened, the risk was too great to not take action regardless of what we know now.


In all cases the solution was not inherent, at least not from the time and place that the statements were made.


1. It's not stupid, it's science.
2. How the hell can they BS something AND do it in such a way that doesn't even add to the argument of mad-made global warming? If the graph was made-up, then it would be perfect and not have the lag in it. Because the mistake is there, we can assume that the graph IS scientific, and therefore is totally relevant in this debate. And therefore, I win.

THE DEBATE IS OVAR!
Nah jk.
You seem to be missing the entire point, just because it's in Al Gore's film doesn't make it scientific. Scientific is not something ever assumed, it is something proven.


In fact, I would venture to say quite the opposite, that anything present in that film is inherently suspect as unscientific.


Before I even address your view of what the graph entails, you must provide evidence of it's validity.

Independent confirmation of the graph, if you can provide that, I will address your argument in regards to it.



Now then, COULD YOU RESPOND TO THE ISSUE, you posted that as a respond to CAUSATION being established, the graph proves CORRELATION NOT CAUSATION.

Ooh! Mine! Yesssss! I've been looking for a paper with a format like that that's brief enough for me to use in debate tournaments. We're arguing whether or not we should increase alternative energy incentives. This will help for my negative case. Thank you, sir.
You're welcome.


I don't have a formula, I am basing this off that fact that today's current temperature follows the same pattern of global temperature as it did before humans. This is according to geologists who have studied core samples.

The link I posted earlier shows the temperature rising before the use of hydrocarbons. It unfortunately does not have a graph showing the temperature pattern of the earth that I mentioned earlier. My original source is a lecture, so I don't have links.

Ok, then I will address the link.

The pattern has an established variation pattern, it can either increase or decrease significantly.

Based on that it is impossible to tell whether or not it's following human intervention or just a natural cycle, because it would be either the temperature we are at now or a significant amount below it would be accounted for in the natural cycle.

Quite simply, if a warming trend was supposed to end and didn't because of artificial intervention it would appear to be an unbroken warming trend.


Furthermore, Global Warming is the issue, not artic warming.

Why do I make that distinction? Because localized temperature may be unaffected or even REVERSE the overall trend. Notice how arctic air temperature lags more and more behind solar activity as hydrocarbon use increases?


By the same token in the US, you'll notice a spike in temperature as compared to solar activity (you'll also note it's during the same period global dimming reversed).


Furthermore, tiny temperature changes to humans are actually major reletive to the earth.


I'm not really familar with tornados, but I am familiar with hurricanes.


While Hurricane NUMBER has not increased, Hurricane INTENSITY has increased DRASTICALLY. That graph totally misses the point since number has never (as far as I've known) been considered remotely relevant.

source

It's quite dishonest to suggest that number refutes anything (unless the petition is old, or the person who created it is quite simply uninformed, either of which throws doubt into the entire thing).
 

BFDD

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Based on that it is impossible to tell whether or not it's following human intervention or just a natural cycle, because it would be either the temperature we are at now or a significant amount below it would be accounted for in the natural cycle.

Quite simply, if a warming trend was supposed to end and didn't because of artificial intervention it would appear to be an unbroken warming trend.
But we can see that we are in a natural warming trend. It may not prove beyond a doubt that global warming is false but it does show that just because the earth is heating up doesn't mean we are doing it.

The Earth produces a lot more greenhouse gases then humans. It also managed to cool itself down after heating up. Earth has been naturally "controlling" large quantities of greenhouse gas for a long time. Why do you believe that humans are able to mess this up?

While Hurricane NUMBER has not increased, Hurricane INTENSITY has increased DRASTICALLY. That graph totally misses the point since number has never (as far as I've known) been considered remotely relevant.
I don't really like the argument. If the earth naturally changes temperature then naturally the weather is going to be affected. I think that argument may have been in there because Gore uses an increase in natural disasters as proof of global warming and unfortunately people see him as the best source for pro global warming data.

Sometimes I think Gore's support has hurt more than helped. People think if Gore is wrong then man made global warming must be false. When they should really be focusing on real scientists.
 

adumbrodeus

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But we can see that we are in a natural warming trend. It may not prove beyond a doubt that global warming is false but it does show that just because the earth is heating up doesn't mean we are doing it.
Also true.


But when we have a concrete causation (again, even 5% is a massive number when dealing with the total heat of a planet, and the actual amount varies from 66-85% INCLUDING CLOUDS, yes VARIES, it's not linear, it depends on how they're mixed), then we can say the answer is yes.

Here's a source, which has the tools for the actual calculation.


The earth should be significantly cooler then it actually is, and a combination of human-induced gases is largely responsible.

The Earth produces a lot more greenhouse gases then humans. It also managed to cool itself down after heating up. Earth has been naturally "controlling" large quantities of greenhouse gas for a long time. Why do you believe that humans are able to mess this up?
Of course, I don't doubt the Earth's ability to eventually reverse any damage we cause (at least via greenhouse gases).

What I doubt is humanity's ability to necessarily survive past it's coping mechanisms.



I don't really like the argument. If the earth naturally changes temperature then naturally the weather is going to be affected. I think that argument may have been in there because Gore uses an increase in natural disasters as proof of global warming and unfortunately people see him as the best source for pro global warming data.
It's not impossible, however the only natural disaster I have specifically studied is the Hurricane is significantly effected by an increase in temperature is the Hurricane, and it's a matter of intensity, not frequency.

I can do more research, but for the moment I will limit myself to the issues which I am positive about

Sometimes I think Gore's support has hurt more than helped. People think if Gore is wrong then man made global warming must be false. When they should really be focusing on real scientists.
Thank you.

He is utterly and completely irrelevant, all he did was make it a popular cause. His "science" is BS.
 

BFDD

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Here's a source, which has the tools for the actual calculation.


The earth should be significantly cooler then it actually is, and a combination of human-induced gases is largely responsible.
Maybe I missed it but I saw no mention of actual heat change. They listed the absorbed Long Wave radiation as calculated by a computer model. How does that translate into actual temperature change from humans?

The calculations were also done by a computer model. Not actually observed. They were able to predict results similar to the observed results of a volcano erupting, with no mention of how close is similar. Computer models have difficulty predicting what the weather is going to be tomorrow. It should be taken as a rough estimate rather than an exact measurement.
 

Aesir

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Sometimes I think Gore's support has hurt more than helped. People think if Gore is wrong then man made global warming must be false. When they should really be focusing on real scientists.
Gores film wasn't 100% false there are some claims that are exaggerated and over the top, but that shouldn't take away from the over all value of the documentary.

Mr Justice Burton identified nine significant errors within the former presidential candidate’s documentary as he assessed whether it should be shown to school children. He agreed that Mr Gore’s film was “broadly accurate” in its presentation of the causes and likely effects of climate change but said that some of the claims were wrong and had arisen in “the context of alarmism and exaggeration”.
Source

It's when he gets into specifics when things get a little hazy. What people don't realize is he's a politician, it's his job to persuade people on matters he feels are important. Has it hurt the cause? I doubt it most know the film isn't a scientific film it certainly has scientific evidence but that doesn't make it a scientific film.
 

Crimson King

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Mostly skimming, but I think a lot of people use global warming as the end-all-be-all argument for what's wrong with the planet. It's ironic that this whole thing boomed after "The Inconvenient Truth," but it's how our society works. The problem is if what's going on with the planet isn't just man-made, then we are wasting a lot of money and energy on something that won't have a solution. I don't mind getting rid of gas, pollution, and all that, just because it's a sign of inefficiency, though.
 

GoldShadow

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If You Want To Know The Science, Read This Post

While this thread isn't bad, it's plagued by the same problems as every other thread related to science on SWF: a severe lack of understanding of the issues and the science behind them. A lot of people do not have the proper foundation in science or researching and interpreting credible sources/articles to be debating issues like this.

That said, this thread has done okay so far; adumbrodeus has done a good job of disseminating some facts. I'm going to hit you with more facts and hard science.

I'VE QUOTED A NUMBER OF SOURCES; QUOTES ARE BLUE AND ITALICIZED

It's well established that global warming is real. The issue is whether or not humans play a big role in it.

The National Climatic Data Center (NCDC), part of the NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration) has a good FAQ on the whole issue:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

The NCDC/NOAA acknowledge that there have been rapid climatic changes in the past (by studying paleoclimatic changes) during glacial (ice age) and interglacial transitions, but also that "the projected change of 3 to 7°F (1.5 - 4°C) over the next century would be unprecedented in comparison with the best available records from the last several thousand years."

The NCDC also reported on global surface temperature anomalies (air temperature of a region at the time of measurement vs the long-term-mean air temperature of that region), and these data also show an unprecedented increase in global temperatures coinciding with the advent of industrialism and increased human emissions:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/anomalies/anomalies.html

The data used to construct the graph come from a number of sources including the Global Historical Climatology Network (GHCN), various climatologists, and the UK's University of East Anglia's Climate Research Unit (UEA-CRU) among others.


Another leading center on climatology and paleoclimatology, the Argentine Regional Center of Scientific and Technological Investigations (CRICYT) has this to say:
" Paleoclimatology offers to help answer each of these questions. Several of the paleoclimate studies reported on in this web document (Briffa et al., Mann et al., Overpeck et al.) have begun efforts to attribute past climate change to both natural and human causes, and to use this information to estimate how much of the current warming is due to humans (i.e., greenhouse warming). The best estimate is that about 50% of the observed global warming is now due to greenhouse gas increases."
(http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html)
(http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/paleolast.html)

In other words, 50% of modern warming is estimated to be the result of human activity; that is a huge number.

The same source (CRICYT) also says this regarding today's warming compared to earth's temperature from thousands of years ago:
" The latest peer-reviewed paleoclimatic studies appear to confirm that the global warmth of the 20th century may not necessarily be the warmest time in Earth's history, what is unique is that the warmth is global and cannot be explained by natural forcing mechanisms."
(http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/paleobefore.html)


Here is what NASA has to say:
"In 2001, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), a group sponsored by the United Nations (UN), published results of climate simulations in a report on global warming. Climatologists used three simulations to determine whether natural variations in climate produced the warming of the past 100 years. The first simulation took into account both natural processes and human activities that affect the climate. The second simulation took into account only the natural processes, and the third only the human activities.

The climatologists then compared the temperatures predicted by the three simulations with the actual temperatures recorded by thermometers. Only the first simulation, which took into account both natural processes and human activities, produced results that corresponded closely to the recorded temperatures.
"

(http://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/global_warming_worldbook.html)

This means that human activities are indeed influencing earth's current climate change in a very measurable, significant way; they are by no means negligible.

NASA's Earth Observatory also provides the following in a global warming FAQ:
"Q: If Earth has warmed and cooled throughout history, what makes scientists think that humans are causing global warming now?

A: The main reason that scientists think humans caused warming since 1950 is that none of the natural processes that influence Earth’s climate have changed enough during that time period to explain the warming."


Some claim that the sun's activity has played a role in the recent warming. This seems plausible at first, because changes in sun activity are in deed one of the major causes of earth's major ice ages. However, changes in sun activity cannot be used to explain today's warming. Here is how the NASA Earth Observatory answers:
"Even more telling is the way in which temperatures are rising. If the warming were caused by a more active Sun, then scientists would expect to see warmer temperatures in all layers of the atmosphere. Instead they have observed a warming at the surface and in the lower parts of the atmosphere and a cooling in the upper atmosphere. Something is trapping heat in the lower atmosphere, and that something is greenhouse gases."


(http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GlobalWarmingQandA/)

This is a very useful FAQ that answers many questions that skeptics have; please read it. Another good read on climate change and ice ages (though not necessarily from a global warming standpoint) is this site/lecture from a University of Arizona page:
http://ircamera.as.arizona.edu/NatSci102/NatSci102/lectures/climate.htm

The NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) also agrees on the sun issue as well:
"...the solar increases do not have the ability to cause large global temperature increases...greenhouse gases are indeed playing the dominant role..."
(http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/19990408/)

The Stanford Solar Center adds:
"The Sun is once again less bright as we approach solar minimum, yet global warming continues."
(http://solar-center.stanford.edu/sun-on-earth/glob-warm.html)


Abrupt climate change has occurred in the past. Isn't it possible that's what is occurring now?

The Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute (WHOI), which has a section dedicated to abrupt climate change (shifts in climate that occur over a period of decades or centuries), acknowledges the following:
"Q. Have humans contributed to the warming?
A. Yes, but there is debate over how much. Natural variability - such as that arising from changes in the sun's energy input to Earth, volcanic activity, and regional climate phenomena like El Niño-Southern Oscillation (ENSO) - does play a role in adjusting the global thermometer. But the observed temperature record cannot be wholly accounted for by natural causes. As the American Geophysical Union recently concluded: "It is scientifically inconceivable that - after changing forest into cities, putting dust and soot into the atmosphere, putting millions of acres of desert into irrigated agriculture, and putting greenhouse gases into the atmosphere - humans have not altered the natural course of the climate system." Greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), nitrous oxide (N2O), ozone (O3) and chlorofluorocarbons (CFC) are being added to the atmosphere largely as a result of burning fossil fuels, tropical deforestation and other human activities. These gases trap energy that would normally be radiated into space, and raise Earth's surface temperatures."

(http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=12455&tid=282&cid=10149#ocean_1)

They also show this graphic from a report by the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change):

Note the sharp increase just as the 20th century rolls around; that is the kind of temperature change that scientists say cannot be explained solely by natural factors.

In their report, the IPCC concluded that humans are causing modern global warming (see this press report).
You can read the IPCC's full report at the following link (it is in PDF format); the document contains graphs and numbers for those interested:
http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg1/ar4-wg1-spm.pdf

Additionally, the US Climate Change Science Program says that human activity can cause abrupt climate change, like the warming we see now. You can read the full report here:
http://www.climatescience.gov/Library/sap/sap3-4/final-report/default.htm




The American Geophysical Union has this to say:
"The 1992 United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change states as an objective the "...stabilization of greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere at a level that would prevent dangerous anthropogenic interference with the climate system." AGU believes that no single threshold level of greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere exists at which the beginning of dangerous anthropogenic interference with the climate system can be defined. Some impacts have already occurred, and for increasing concentrations there will be increasing impacts. The unprecedented increases in greenhouse gas concentrations, together with other human influences on climate over the past century and those anticipated for the future, constitute a real basis for concern.

...

The global climate is changing and human activities are contributing to that change."

(http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/policy/positions/climate_change.shtml)

The American Meteorological Society agrees; you should read their full statement on it, but here is a brief excerpt regarding CO2:
"Carbon dioxide concentration is rising mostly as a result of fossil-fuel burning and partly from clearing of vegetation; about 50% of the enhanced emissions remain in the atmosphere, while the rest of the Earth system continues to absorb the remaining 50%. In the last 50 years atmospheric CO2 concentration has been increasing at a rate much faster than any rates observed in the geological record of the past several thousand years."
(http://ametsoc.org/POLICY/2007climatechange.html)

Another IPCC report also details the solid evidence that humans are responsible for increased CO2 and greenhouse gas levels:
http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/climate-changes-2001/synthesis-spm/synthesis-spm-en.pdf
All the numbers, data, tables, and graphs within are quite a bit of proof.

Don't volcanoes and other natural sources emit thousands of times more CO2 than human activities?
The answer is a resounding "NO".

The USGS Volcano Hazards Program says that "Human activities release more than 130 times the amount of CO2 emitted by volcanoes--the equivalent of more than 8,000 additional volcanoes like Kilauea (Kilauea emits about 3.3 million tonnes/year)! (Gerlach et. al., 2002)"
(http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/hazards/gas/index.php)

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) echoes and cites this:
"human activities now emit 130 times as much CO2 as volcanoes (whose emissions are relatively modest compared to some earlier times)."
(http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/pastcc.html)

The EPA also cites studies that show dramatic increases in all greenhouse gases and concludes that they are the result of human industrial advancement.
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/recentac.html

Need more proof that the increase in CO2 and greenhouse gases is the result of human activity? The University Corporation for Atmospheric Research delivers: "One of the strongest pieces of evidence for human-induced climate change is the consistent rise in carbon dioxide (CO2) in modern times"

(http://www.ucar.edu/news/features/climatechange/faqs.jsp#globalwarming)

Data for that graph came from the Mauna Loa Observatory in Hawaii.
http://www.mlo.noaa.gov/

UCAR also answers those who say Weren't scientists warning of a global cooling a few years ago?:
"After rising in the early 20th century, global surface temperatures cooled slightly from just after World War II (the mid-1940s) into the 1970s.

Scientists already knew that carbon dioxide was accumulating in the atmosphere and that it could lead to eventual global warming. In 1975, Wallace Broecker (Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory) published the first major study with "global warming" in the title.

But a few researchers believed that pollution from burgeoning postwar industry was shielding sunlight and shading the planet, causing the observed cooldown. Some even theorized that a "snow blitz" could accelerate the cooling and bring on the next ice age. Their statements got major play in the media.

Starting in the 1970s, new clean-air laws began to reduce sulfates and other sunlight-blocking pollutants from U.S. and European sources, while greenhouse gases continued to accumulate unchecked. Global temperatures began to warm sharply in the 1980s and have continued rising since then.

Increasingly detailed models suggest that the more recent warmup can be attributed to greenhouse gases overpowering the effect of sunlight-shielding pollution. Computer simulations also suggest that today's atmosphere would be even warmer still, were it not for that air pollution."

(http://www.ucar.edu/news/features/climatechange/faqs.jsp#globalcooling)

UCAR also answers the following:
It's been freezing cold with lots of snow where I live. Doesn't that prove global warming is a hoax?
"There are always cold spells and warm spells going on in one place or another. But even where weather is cold, what's considered "typical" is changing. For example, the heavy snow that struck Colorado and Kansas at the end of 2006 was actually more characteristic of that area's autumn or spring weather than a typical December.

Globally, Earth's natural processes don't follow a linear pattern, so the global average temperature may be slightly cooler or warmer from one year to the next. Different parts of Earth's ecosystem also respond to the greenhouse effect in different ways. The oceans, for example, hold more heat and respond to atmospheric chnages more slowly than land masses do. Average temperatures of the land, oceans, and atmosphere also vary from year to year as well as from each other.

To examine long-term warming, climate scientists look at large areas and longer time periods. The maps below help illustrate the global nature of climate change."

(http://www.ucar.edu/news/features/climatechange/faqs.jsp#cold)


If those reports weren't enough, here's another gigantic report from the US Global Change Research Program. that also agrees humans have strongly impacted the climate:
http://www.usgcrp.gov/usgcrp/Library/ocp2008/ocp2008.pdf
http://www.usgcrp.gov/usgcrp/Library/ocp2008/default.htm

And here's another report from the IPCC on how strongly humans have impacted the climate:
http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/technical-papers/climate-change-water-en.pdf

Whew, finally. Done.
 

GoldShadow

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Before anybody responds to my post criticizing anything, please do two things:

1) Read through my sources. Seriously, it took me a while to put it together and there's a lot more evidence than what was in my long post; all I've done is linked to a few things, summarized, and excerpted.

2) Consider your sources before posting; DO NOT CITE SOME RANDOM "SKEPTIC'S" WEBSITE WHEN REPLYING TO ANY POINTS. I don't know if you noticed, but every one of my sources was selected carefully.


It won't be a waste of your time to read through all the stuff I posted; trust me, they're GoldShadow© Approved :) :) :)




If anybody has any doubt that global warming is real and that humans are the major contributor, then I'm not sure what else I can say. I've presented all the science behind it and why it is true.
 

AltF4

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This is why:

1) We needed GoldShadow in the Debate Hall,

and

2) I tend to stay out of this debate.


Because there isn't really a debate, not the kind that you should find in an online forum, anyway. This is a factual matter, an objective one, not a subjective one. This is a scientific matter, not a political one. I am not an expert in climatology, nor am I likely to become one soon. Thus I do not try to enter into this "debate". Just as I hate it when people who don't even know how to turn on their computer try to debate with me about Net Neutrality.
 

BFDD

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Very nicely done. I just wish you could have posted this a bit earlier when I had more time to read through it all. Unfortunately school is starting up again soon so I won't have much time to be researching things other than my field of study. I did a quick skim through and it looks like you still haven't answered some of my problems with man made global warming. But I can't really argue anything yet, so I guess I will have to call myself on the fence until I can find the time to read through the facts you have posted.
 

GoldShadow

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Could you make a list of things my post didn't (seem) to answer? I'll admit, I kind of skimmed this thread before posting my own response and didn't see every issue that was brought up.
 

adumbrodeus

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Maybe I missed it but I saw no mention of actual heat change. They listed the absorbed Long Wave radiation as calculated by a computer model. How does that translate into actual temperature change from humans?
Your objections are because you don't understand how long wave radiation relates to actual temperature increases.

That's the MECHANISM by which the retention occurs, long wave radiation is LIGHT which, after absorption, is released as HEAT. There's more to it but that's the basic mechanics of the greenhouse effect.

The calculations were also done by a computer model. Not actually observed. They were able to predict results similar to the observed results of a volcano erupting, with no mention of how close is similar. Computer models have difficulty predicting what the weather is going to be tomorrow. It should be taken as a rough estimate rather than an exact measurement.
"Can't even"? The weather is INCREDIBLY complex to model. Global warming is a mere cakewalk compared to it. Regardless, if you account margins of error, weather modeling for tomorrow, is actually quite reliable (it's just they don't tell you the margin of error).

Again, remember the fact that we don't have an absolute number, we have a margin. Also keep in mind that the variables are the actual factors that cause the greenhouse effect.

Sure, it's not exact, but it is more then enough to show a significant causation, and a large one at that.



This is why:

1) We needed GoldShadow in the Debate Hall,

and

2) I tend to stay out of this debate.


Because there isn't really a debate, not the kind that you should find in an online forum, anyway. This is a factual matter, an objective one, not a subjective one. This is a scientific matter, not a political one. I am not an expert in climatology, nor am I likely to become one soon. Thus I do not try to enter into this "debate". Just as I hate it when people who don't even know how to turn on their computer try to debate with me about Net Neutrality.
That's really a problem though, because it comes up, and since it's a factual matter, people need to be able to respond with the facts.

I am not an expert climatologist, but I do know enough of the matter to hopefully enlighten at least a few people on this.


As for the net neutrality thing, did the person you debated happen to talk about the internet in terms of a series of tubes? And talk about getting an email on Tuesday that was sent Friday?


While this thread isn't bad, it's plagued by the same problems as every other thread related to science on SWF: a severe lack of understanding of the issues and the science behind them. A lot of people do not have the proper foundation in science or researching and interpreting credible sources/articles to be debating issues like this.

That said, this thread has done okay so far; adumbrodeus has done a good job of disseminating some facts. I'm going to hit you with more facts and hard science.
Thanks, I try.

Unfortunately, it isn't my area of expertise, otherwise I probably could've done a better job.
 

BFDD

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ur objections are because you don't understand how long wave radiation relates to actual temperature increases.

That's the MECHANISM by which the retention occurs, long wave radiation is LIGHT which, after absorption, is released as HEAT. There's more to it but that's the basic mechanics of the greenhouse effect.
I realize that. Like I said time and time again I do know how the greenhouse gases work. I was asking numbers. How much heat is released. Light absorption numbers mean nothing to me if you were to translate that into temperature the numbers would have some meaning.

If you can get the math for the amount of greenhouse gas that makes it to the atmosphere and then calculate the light absorption that causes. You can then come up with an actual number for the temperature increase humans are causing.

Otherwise you just keep saying the same thing. Greenhouse gases heat the earth. If humans release any greenhouse gases we are going to destroy the planet.

Could you make a list of things my post didn't (seem) to answer? I'll admit, I kind of skimmed this thread before posting my own response and didn't see every issue that was brought up.
Basically what I just brought up^. I would be interested in any actual math you have. If it is in one of the links you posted just tell me which one. I don't necessarily need to see all the calculations involved I just want to see actual numbers for how much humans are increasing the temperature. Mostly what I see in global warming articles is people saying "the temperature is rising to fast for it to be just natural". Followed by an explanation of greenhouse gases and the effects of a higher temperature. The spend very little time actually linking global warming to humans.
 

GoldShadow

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1) http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html#q3
Says global mean temperatures have increase 0.74°C ± 0.18°C since the late 19th century.

2) http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/hazards/gas/index.php
Says that human activities result in 30 billion tons of CO2 emitted per year.

3) http://ametsoc.org/POLICY/2007climatechange.html
Says about 50% of CO2 is absorbed by the earth's systems, but 50% remains in the atmosphere.

4) http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Says that current estimates place human contribution (due to greenhouse gases) at 50% of global warming.


So a couple different ways of expressing it. According to these, if human activity is responsible for 50% of the warming, then humans have caused a 0.37° ± 0.09°C change in global temperatures since the late 1800s. If we look at source 2, which says human activities produce 30 billion tons of CO2, and if, like source 3 says, 50% of CO2 remains in the atmosphere, then 15 billion tons of human-produced CO2 stay in the atmosphere each year.

Now we could also use this graph:


And data on how much CO2 was in the air in the late 1800s (around 280 ppm, compared with today's 380+ ppm) to fill in and extrapolate everything before that (data in ppm from http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html#q3). The rate at which it is increasing is 1.9 ppm per year.


I'm sure there is a site out there with a more exact method, but based on the above, you could come up with a crude version/estimate of such a formula.

Come up with an equation for the amount of CO2 that has been left in the atmosphere each year since the late 1800s, use a little calculus to figure out the total amount of CO2 in the atmosphere that is the result of human activity since the late 1800s, and there's your answer as to how much manmade CO2 has caused the 0.37° ± 0.09°C due to human activity.
 

aeghrur

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This thread is VERY informative, and while I don't respect the character goldshadow is named after, I do respect him.
Well, now onto reading again. =/

:093:
 

Eor

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He's not named after anything dealing with Sonic
 

IDK

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That's a bit off topic. Anyway...
This read and all the posts were very informative, but I'd like to remind people that just posting a site or some random fact requires backing up. Verify your facts with VERIFIED sites/links... and when you post a site, be sure that it is credible, and isn't the only thing you post...
 
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