If SSB4 offers options for competitive players, what should they be/would they work?

[Dillo64]

I'm guessing something to adjust the gravity, sort of like Brawl's but with a greater range.

An adjuster for hitstun and shieldstun would be great, but something tells me that individual attacks should have their own coding in that aspect, not sure if it can be a universal thing.

What I'd want most is the ability to choose what kind of air-dodge you do in your control setup, directional or infinite. This would let each player decide if they want to use wavedashing or not. Also something for manual or automatic L-cancels.


Do you think something like this would work? Any other ideas?

 

[mimgrim]

Stuff like that is just to damn complicated and makes the competitive scene even more complex and unorganized. Because then you get people who argue for different air-dodges, gravities, stun, ect... on top of the constant arguments of stages and items. It's just better to have those types of mechanics generalized without allowing them to be changed, or putting them solely in Special fights like Melee and Brawl did.

It's better to just ask for stable mechanics all around instead.


I would say getting wired controllers should be the most important thing the competitive scene needs to gets. With better balance and more tech coming in very close second. Speed as already been addressed, according to Sakurai anyway.

 

[Muster]

I really want wired controllers, first.

A choice of brawl/melee air dodge in the style of auto/manual drifting in Mario kart would be a dream come true.

 

[Dianostique]

I don't think giving the options to wavedash or not to a player is the way to go, they should really just stick with the way Melee worked, plus, like everyone said, a wired controller is a must.

 

[J1NG]

Honestly, I believe that Melee's shuffle options were more responsible for the pace of the game than the gravity. If you look at low level Melee vs Brawl, they're roughly the same speed. Also, adjustable meters for gravity, hit stun and the like are silly ideas IMO. My ideas may also be silly. I thought it would be interesting if Smash 4 featured a new cancel that can only be done once per combo string, giving the mechanic some depth(You could also add auto cancelling properties to lighter attacks). I was thinking that the method of cancelling would involve pressing a button and then timing a button press for the move/action that you want to cancel into. The timing for attacks could be on enemy and/or floor contact. That is the best idea I have.

 

[Dillo64]

What is the advantage of a Wired vs. non-Wired controller? Less input lag or something?

I've been using a Wavebird all these years.....

 

[C.Olimar788]

Yes, wireless controllers add lag. It's relatively negligible for all but the highest levels of play, but adding wired options for an intensely competitive game is practically a must. The problem with that in this context is that the Wii U doesn't really have any reasonable way to do that outside of a straight USB controller, and Nintendo will almost certainly never do that.

Sliders or options for hitstun, air dodging, or anything else is a terrible idea. Having a changeable core gameplay is the easiest way to completely tear apart your fanbase, and will just make it harder for any actual competitive play to come from the game. In that regard all they need to do is make sure the core is solid. If that means sticking to their guns about the Brawl air dodge, so be it - as long as there's significant hitstun, I'm sure that competitive play will come.

From there, adding little competitive-friendly options ala Project M would go a long way. Things like being able to change the layout of the stage select screen so that competitive players can set it up with all neutrals and counterpicks are easily accessible, adding stage striking as a feature, or even adding crew battles or simply stock control would be particularly great. I don't really think any of this will happen - Smash Bros. doesn't really seem to have any interest in acknowledging the competitive fanbase outside of the occasional jab at their playing style - but a man can dream. And if Nintendo ever wants to, it should be easy enough to patch in later.

 

[mimgrim]

What is the advantage of a Wired vs. non-Wired controller? Less input lag or something?

I've been using a Wavebird all these years.....

Input lag is a problem, yes.

However another problem is everyone having only wireless controllers to play. Because then we end up getting mass synching problems and possible interference in bigger tournaments.

Wireless is fine when only like 2 people use it, but when everyone has to use it? It’s just not viable.

 

[PikaJew]

I just can't comprehend why they would waste time doing this.
They make the one play style and build off this.
You throw in this much customization catered to such a small market, then the issues of balancing are through the roof.

It still baffles me how many people have great ideas for Smash 4 to change up the formula to make it play like Melee.

If you want Melee, play Melee.
No use hoping that a game series that has moved forward with each installment is going to stop changing and go back to a formula that so few people have exploited.

You all complain about the Call of Duty being the same thing over and over with new maps, weapons and game modes
Yet that's exactly what you want from Smash. To be a Melee sequel over and over

 

[Muster]

I don't think giving the options to wavedash or not to a player is the way to go, they should really just stick with the way Melee worked, plus, like everyone said, a wired controller is a must.

Going back to my mario kart example, i believe the older games were all automatic drifting, then the game switched to manual in newer ones and you were given the option to switch back as well. Manual drifting is mostly better than automatic, like melee style airdodge is in almost all ways better than brawls, but people starting smash with this game will appreciate using their air dodge more defensively.

I just can't comprehend why they would waste time doing this.
They make the one play style and build off this.
You throw in this much customization catered to such a small market, then the issues of balancing are through the roof.

It still baffles me how many people have great ideas for Smash 4 to change up the formula to make it play like Melee.

If you want Melee, play Melee.
No use hoping that a game series that has moved forward with each installment is going to stop changing and go back to a formula that so few people have exploited.

You all complain about the Call of Duty being the same thing over and over with new maps, weapons and game modes
Yet that's exactly what you want from Smash. To be a Melee sequel over and over

Smash isn't built off of one playstyle, sakurai has acknowledged this in balancing the game in multiple ways for different play styles.

Bringing back wavedashing, L cancelling and crouch cancelling =/= remaking the same game. Take a look at smash 64, it had L cancelling and crouch cancelling as well, but it's a massively different game, gameplay wise. Crouch cancelling was the only thing slightly retained in brawl, and it just reduced hitstun, making the game more defensive than it already was.

Why is it that other fighting games can keep their competitive features in each new installment, but Smash bros. becomes Call of Duty when it does?
As an example, Street Fighter 4 went back to the Street Fighter II style of gameplay, instead of staying with 3's.

 

[PikaJew]

Going back to my mario kart example, i believe the older games were all automatic drifting, then the game switched to manual in newer ones and you were given the option to switch back as well. Manual drifting is mostly better than automatic, like melee style airdodge is in almost all ways better than brawls, but people starting smash with this game will appreciate using their air dodge more defensively.


Smash isn't built off of one playstyle, sakurai has acknowledged this in balancing the game in multiple ways for different play styles.

Bringing back wavedashing, L cancelling and crouch cancelling =/= remaking the same game. Take a look at smash 64, it had L cancelling and crouch cancelling as well, but it's a massively different game, gameplay wise. Crouch cancelling was the only thing slightly retained in brawl, and it just reduced hitstun, making the game more defensive than it already was.

Why is it that other fighting games can keep their competitive features in each new installment, but Smash bros. becomes Call of Duty when it does?

Because everyone complained when Brawl wasn't Melee. So much that they modded a whole new game based off the Melee playstyle.
People (on this forum at least) have become way too comfortable with the Melee style/gamecube controller that that's all they want going forward.
More than half of these people didn't even play 64.

And I never got why L-cancelling was such a big deal... I mean it was helpful with Link's down A in 64 and all, but can't you just use a different move when you're that close to the ground?
If you're going to have a bad time if you use Bowser's back A close to the ground, then use it sooner. Turn around and use his forward A. Use his neutral A for christs sake.

I will admit L-cancelling was a good feature, I just don't really care that it's not here anymore. I can find ways around, which I do.
Isn't the whole point of Smash Bros. to find new ways to overcome obstacles and get the K.O. no matter what?

 

[Muster]

Because everyone complained when Brawl wasn't Melee. So much that they modded a whole new game based off the Melee playstyle.
People (on this forum at least) have become way too comfortable with the Melee style/gamecube controller that that's all they want going forward.
More than half of these people didn't even play 64.

And I never got why L-cancelling was such a big deal... I mean it was helpful with Link's down A in 64 and all, but can't you just use a different move when you're that close to the ground?
If you're going to have a bad time if you use Bowser's back A close to the ground, then use it sooner. Turn around and use his forward A. Use his neutral A for christs sake.

I will admit L-cancelling was a good feature, I just don't really care that it's not here anymore. I can find ways around, which I do.
Isn't the whole point of Smash Bros. to find new ways to overcome obstacles and get the K.O. no matter what?

I just edited my above post, so i might as well re add the statement here.
Street Fighter 4 was changed so it would be closer to Street Fighter II, the fan favorite and (arguably) more competitive of the two, smash doing that would be a dream come true for competitive smash players everywhere, Gamecube controller or not.

In Melee's fast paced gameplay, Shorthops and SHFFL's are prominent, Meaning a player wanting to get a good aerial off needs to be close to the ground unless juggling or edge guarding the opponent.
Smash 64's l cancelling cancelled all landing lag instead of half, so most combos were zero to death and the game was very fast paced as a result.

The problem with Bowser is that his better aerials have an obscene amount of landing lag, even compared to other aerials of similar strength, so he needs L cancelling to even the playing field a little, and make him not completely useless(even then he's still pretty bad).

The point of the Smash Bros series at its core, is to have fun with your friends and play a great game. People who play the game competitively want to do this with a faster paced, deeper smash bros. That's why i think it's necessary to re implement at least some of the old features from melee, instead of watering the game down like Brawl. You should take a look at at this documentary, it provides some insight on Smash from the point of view of the melee community. It's a real eye opener if you ask me, and a great way to kill time for any smash fan.

While i do see why people would want to play smash in new ways every game. It's possible to do that while keeping the game competitive, instead of shunning the competitive community altogether.

 

[lordvaati]

I don't think they will ever have changes as extreme as most mentioned, they could do subtle nods to competitive aspects for players, a la how the new Pokemon games had more options for EV training.

And on a minor side note, can pkeeps stop dropping the "Nintendo no like competitiveness" card? Sakurai has already said is not going to be as casual friendly as Brawl, so chill plz.

 

[mimgrim]

Going back to my mario kart example, i believe the older games were all automatic drifting, then the game switched to manual in newer ones and you were given the option to switch back as well. Manual drifting is mostly better than automatic, like melee style airdodge is in almost all ways better than brawls, but people starting smash with this game will appreciate using their air dodge more defensively.

Thing is Mario Kart is extremely different from Smash, especially competitive Smash. It works in Mario Kart because of the kind of game it is. In competitive Smash it would cause more problems and not solve anything for the competitive community. This is because the 2 different air dodges create 2 different paces for the game and 2 players in the same match are at different paces in that extreme. This would in turn make the competitive community chose a specific air dodge to use and there will be people who fight for Brawl air dodge because the like that pace. It’s just not good for the competitive community.

 

[Substitution]

Going back to my mario kart example, i believe the older games were all automatic drifting, then the game switched to manual in newer ones and you were given the option to switch back as well. Manual drifting is mostly better than automatic, like melee style airdodge is in almost all ways better than brawls, but people starting smash with this game will appreciate using their air dodge more defensively.

My opinion is fact guyz! ...Because that's how it works.
You can't say one's "better" because you like it. I think the word your looking for is "prefer". Like how you "prefer" Melee's air dodge over Brawl. Or how I "prefer" manual cause it's the one I'm used to...

Oh, and no, it's always been manual, automatic didn't come around till MKWii.

 

[Muster]

My opinion is fact guyz! ...Because that's how it works.
You can't say one's "better" because you like it. I think the word your looking for is "prefer". Like how you "prefer" Melee's air dodge over Brawl. Or how I "prefer" manual cause it's the one I'm used to...

Oh, and no, it's always been manual, automatic didn't come around till MKWii.

Better mobility vs better defensive options, it's going to be weighted towards better mobility in a competitive environment because even unlimited air dodges won't help you on the ground where the other player is more mobile.
On that note, Automatic does not offer mini turbos like manual does, so you put yourself in a situation where you are slower than your opponent, which matters a whole bunch in a competitive environment.

Maybe i was wrong using the word "better" overall for the comparison, what i meant to say was that each option is better for the community using it. You don't see the best Kart players using automatic drifting like you theoretically won't see professional players sacrificing mobility so they can dodge a few more times in the air.
We'd really need to see both air dodges in the same environment to see if there's an obvious better option or not, but I was just posting an example.
No need to get your jimmies rustled.


I was referring to the mini turbos that drifting could give you, which did not exist when i played super mario kart, the "older" game i was referring to.

 

[Substitution]

I was referring to the mini turbos that drifting could give you, which did not exist when i played super mario kart, the "older" game i was referring to.

It does actually, it just takes time.

Because everyone complained when Brawl wasn't Melee. So much that they modded a whole new game based off the Melee playstyle.
People (on this forum at least) have become way too comfortable with the Melee style/gamecube controller that that's all they want going forward.
More than half of these people didn't even play 64.

And I never got why L-cancelling was such a big deal... I mean it was helpful with Link's down A in 64 and all, but can't you just use a different move when you're that close to the ground?
If you're going to have a bad time if you use Bowser's back A close to the ground, then use it sooner. Turn around and use his forward A. Use his neutral A for christs sake.

I will admit L-cancelling was a good feature, I just don't really care that it's not here anymore. I can find ways around, which I do.
Isn't the whole point of Smash Bros. to find new ways to overcome obstacles and get the K.O. no matter what?

This, it's not like we haven't been here before. So what if it doesn't have Wavedashing, we'll find other advanced techniques. I mean heck, where we lost L-cancelling, we found DACUS.

 

[Muster]

It does actually, it just takes time.

well shoot, now i have to dig up my old copy of super mario kart

This, it's not like we haven't been here before. So what if it doesn't have Wavedashing, we'll find other advanced techniques. I mean heck, where we lost L-cancelling, we found DACUS.

Hate to say it, but DACUS isn't a really good example, While l cancelling was useful for every character at about any time, A DACUS is situational and only really helps certain characters, like the wavedash. B reversals would be a better comparison (imo) due to them being useful for more characters.

 

[J1NG]

It does actually, it just takes time.


This, it's not like we haven't been here before. So what if it doesn't have Wavedashing, we'll find other advanced techniques. I mean heck, where we lost L-cancelling, we found DACUS.

And of course, the only problem being that not everyone has DACUS. But, that isn't to say that there aren't some wavedashes that are completely useless.

 

[Substitution]

well shoot, now i have to dig up my old copy of super mario kart

Hate to say it, but DACUS isn't a really good example, While l cancelling was useful for every character at about any time, A DACUS is situational and only really helps certain characters, like the wavedash. B reversals would be a better comparison (imo) due to them being useful for more characters.

You're missing the point, what I said was that we can move on, we can go on without L-canceling, as we will find new techniques to replaces the removed ones.
Note: Every character you say, you sure about that? Well, my good friend, Mr. G&W says hi.

 

[Muster]

You're missing the point, what I said was that we can move on, we can go on without L-canceling, as we will find new techniques to replaces the removed ones.
Note: Every character you say, you sure about that? Well, my good friend, Mr. G&W says hi.

G&W can still L cancel two of his aerials, so it's still useful for him. I still think it's rather absurd that L cancelling was removed, especially when it doesn't get in the way with more modern techs like DACUS and it's removal just slows down the game as a whole.

also, G&W's lack of L cancelling is due to a glitch in the game reading most of his aerials as special aerials, bit a trivia right thar

 

[Substitution]

G&W can still L cancel two of his aerials, so it's still useful for him. I still think it's rather absurd that L cancelling was removed, especially when it doesn't get in the way with more modern techs like DACUS and it's removal just slows down the game as a whole.

But not as much as the others, where they could do all 5.
But fine, maybe it was, but is Brawl worse for not having it? Did people just completely abandon Brawl because it was gone? No, they didn't. Why is that?

 

[Muster]

But not as much as the others, where they could do all 5.

Iirc, it was due to a glitch in the game thinking most of his aerials were special attacks. I'm assuming this was fixed in brawl and project M as an extension.

Really sucks how G&W can't l cancel as much as the other chars, really restricts his air game. That's probably why he's so underrepresented at tournaments.

 

[pitthekit]

We'll for competitive sake and casuals enjoyment hit stun should return with melees hit stun, when I was a casual I loved high hits tun because me and my friends could pull cool combos. In brawl there was less hit stun- a lot of perfect creative combos got removed. And besides combos was the gateway to casuals becoming competitive(combos were easy to pull off). Casuals would learn to di towards the stage to avoid the ken combo (a fair to dair spike). Then they may be interested into other in -depth mechanics.


I hope ssb4 will have a casual looking game only to have it be an addicting subtle competitive game. The casuals could ether join the fun and thrilling competitive crowd or simply play casually for fun or quit(which I can respect if the game did not give them desirable feelings) with that said if there is melee's hitstun every character should have a guaranteed combo. Btw this post abused brackets I wish I had grammar skillz

 

[Dillo64]

I just can't comprehend why they would waste time doing this.
They make the one play style and build off this.
You throw in this much customization catered to such a small market, then the issues of balancing are through the roof.
It still baffles me how many people have great ideas for Smash 4 to change up the formula to make it play like Melee.

If you want Melee, play Melee.
No use hoping that a game series that has moved forward with each installment is going to stop changing and go back to a formula that so few people have exploited.

You all complain about the Call of Duty being the same thing over and over with new maps, weapons and game modes
Yet that's exactly what you want from Smash. To be a Melee sequel over and over

You are clearly in no informed position to tell us what we want. I've played Melee enough, I don't want go back and play Melee again, and I don't want another Melee. I don't want the same game over and over, that's a completely ignorant generalization and you know it.

The series has not "moved forward" for us in terms of gameplay, it has moved backward, become simpler and slower and less intuitive, more shallow. It has become casual. To people who really enjoyed Melee for everything it was, Brawl was a major and needless step backwards. As far as I'm concerned, the only advancements it made gameplay-wise was having more characters, which is just expected for every installment anyway.

This is because Melee had no problem appealing to both casuals AND more involved fans, it was successful both ways, and that was one of the major appeals of the SSB franchise: easy to learn, hard to master, good fun for everybody. Brawl fell behind in that aspect greatly, it wasn't for everybody, it focused on only the more casual and core fans and alienated its most dedicated demographic. We just want the series to return to the level of depth and integrity it once had, even if some people don't care.

We don't want a step back, we want a step forward. A compromise, so everyone has something to look forward to. Why is this so hard to understand?

Because everyone complained when Brawl wasn't Melee. So much that they modded a whole new game based off the Melee playstyle.
People (on this forum at least) have become way too comfortable with the Melee style/gamecube controller that that's all they want going forward.
More than half of these people didn't even play 64.

You're making a lot of generalizations. You don't know "everyone" and you certainly don't speak for "everyone".

There is an entire sub-culture of gamers dedicated to the professional & non-professional competitive fighting game scene, has been since the Street Fighter II and Mortal Kombat days, and SSB has been part of that scene for over 15 years now, and is still going strong. These people, while technically a minority compared to the ridiculous amount of casual players Nintendo brought in with the Wii, are still a very large and very active portion of the SSB fanbase, and easily the game's most diehard fans.

SSB was originally a series that catered to Nintendo's most diehard fans, a museum of their accomplishments and history, and the people who put the ridiculous time and effort into these games are the exact type of person SSB was originally meant to appeal to...... and you're saying these people aren't important in the slightest now?

I'd also like to know where you got a lot of these statistics. I'd like to think most competitive players have played SSB64, which had plenty competitive exploits as well, some even worse than Melee/Brawl..... not that it is a requirement to be considered a fan or even relevant to this discussion.

And I never got why L-cancelling was such a big deal... I mean it was helpful with Link's down A in 64 and all, but can't you just use a different move when you're that close to the ground?
If you're going to have a bad time if you use Bowser's back A close to the ground, then use it sooner. Turn around and use his forward A. Use his neutral A for christs sake.
I will admit L-cancelling was a good feature, I just don't really care that it's not here anymore. I can find ways around, which I do.
Isn't the whole point of Smash Bros. to find new ways to overcome obstacles and get the K.O. no matter what?

Wow..... okay.... yeah L-cancelling was kind of one of the most important features the games have ever had. It (along with hitstun) is basically what allows combos - a staple and expected feature in fighting games. The purpose isn't just to speed up your recovery from an aerial, but rather you ability to immediately follow up an aerial with another move, and strike again before your opponent can recover - hence a combo. It is a MAJOR factor of what made the game fast paced, strategic, and... well.... a competitive fighting game.

I'm kind of shocked you have the gal to criticize us on all this when you don't even understand the most basic functions or the extent in which they deepen the game, or how extensive the fanbase goes for all this. From this I'd gather that most of the refinements we're asking for are things you probably wouldn't even notice, so I don't see why you're complaining.

 

[Wegenbarth]

Togleable Melee/Brawl Airdodge. Then most people will be happy again.

 

[D-idara]

I'll be happy as long as there's no wavedash.

 

[RODO]

Go back to ign Dillo but seriously, I think we just need stable mechanics all around like has already been said.

 

[J1NG]

I'll be happy as long as there's no wavedash.

Haha, I don't even consider wave dashing to be all that important. I think most people would be happy as long as they can improvise combos.

 

[MrsAccount]

I'm kind of shocked you have the gal to criticize us on all this when you don't even understand the most basic functions or the extent in which they deepen the game, or how extensive the fanbase goes for all this. From this I'd gather that most of the refinements we're asking for are things you probably wouldn't even notice, so I don't see why you're complaining.

Threads like these make it seem like people expect Smash Bros 4 to be Melee 2 (which it clearly isn't). This gives the impression no-one is appreciative of any of the other aspects in the game.

I'm not saying you have to eat whatever Nintendo ****s out, but usually, they put a lot of work and effort in every single product to make it enjoyable for everyone. They are a company that primarily focuses on making virtual toys for kids whilst still being approachable to adults. If you want your niche, competitive fighting game, it'd be better to make something of it yourself. Be productive! I'm always delighted to see things like Project M take place, because that TRULY brings people together in a positive atmosphere.

 

[Dillo64]

Threads like these make it seem like people expect Smash Bros 4 to be Melee 2 (which it clearly isn't). This gives the impression no-one is appreciative of any of the other aspects in the game.

I never understood this line of judgment. Does everyone really think that much in black & white?

We don't want Melee 2, we want a sequel that has both new and old aspects, that takes the best aspects from the series history (64, Melee, and Brawl) and builds on top of it.

Kind of like what Nintendo does with the current Mario games. They bring back all the best fun stuff we remember from the old games but put it in a new light with loads of new features.

Wanting some old features back doesn't mean I don't want new ones. I'm not sure how this mentality came about....

I'm not saying you have to eat whatever Nintendo ****s out, but usually, they put a lot of work and effort in every single product to make it enjoyable for everyone. They are a company that primarily focuses on making virtual toys for kids whilst still being approachable to adults. If you want your niche, competitive fighting game, it'd be better to make something of it yourself. Be productive! I'm always delighted to see things like Project M take place, because that TRULY brings people together in a positive atmosphere.

So if we want, say, a new Star Fox game then we should make it ourselves? Because Nintendo's not gonna make one because they prefer casual fans now? Because that's a perfectly realistic and possible thing to do, right?

All you're saying here is basically "deal with it". Something like Project M (which while now is a positive atmosphere was essentially born out of disappointment and negativity towards Brawl) is an unbelievably rare occurrence - where a fan project as large scale as this not only acquires the technical means/resources of accomplishing it's goals, but is backed long enough to do so, and is lucky enough to not be shut down by the higher ups. Project M is a diamond, a unicorn, it is something that you do NOT see often, and I'm genuinely surprised it has gotten to where it has. It isn't just something that you pull out of a hat, that can be duplicated easily, if at all. You can't just tell us to "make another Project M".

I just get the feeling that people who don't care about the competitive nature of the series are just fishing for reasons to write it off and sweep our concerns under the rug since it doesn't concern you. If you don't care about it then don't post, don't go telling those of us who do care to stop trying. It's kind of insulting.[/quote]

 

[MrsAccount]

I just get the feeling that people who don't care about the competitive nature of the series are just fishing for reasons to write it off and sweep our concerns under the rug since it doesn't concern you. If you don't care about it then don't post, don't go telling those of us who do care to stop trying. It's kind of insulting.

Dude. Calm down. You don't HAVE to buy the game if it's that bothersome.

 

[pitthekit]

Also why do people want wave dash gone? It gave you unique mobility options. I mean a burst mobility option with any tilt you want! Was it hard to perform? You do know if you practise hard techniques they become more "easy" to perform. Any peach and fox/falco main will tell you that.

Why would you want to lose a mobility option!

Dude. Calm down. You don't HAVE to buy the game if it's that bothersome.

Yet we buy smash for the feeling it gives. Heck most casuals will throw away smash 4 after like 2 weeks! The competitive crowd keeps the game alive: discovering the secrets mechanics and technical means of the game. While showing the games fun side.

Also we will come up with arguments to counter your reasons. If we win- then your reason was maybe flawed and not for the good of the game and vice versa. After all we are trying to make the game more enjoyable for everyone while adding in depth mechanics.

 

[Substitution]

...Can I say a few words.

There is an entire sub-culture of gamers dedicated to the professional & non-professional competitive fighting game scene, has been since the Street Fighter II and Mortal Kombat days, and SSB has been part of that scene for over 15 years now, and is still going strong. These people, while technically a minority compared to the ridiculous amount of casual players Nintendo brought in with the Wii, are still a very large and very active portion of the SSB fanbase, and easily the game's most diehard fans.

Because we should be the ones represented, we should be the ones known. Why?... We weren't even around till Melee, which so happened to have a competitive scene. Don't act like we've been around forever, so we should deserve to have a bigger slice of the pie.

...SSB was originally a series that catered to Nintendo's most diehard fans, a museum of their accomplishments and history, and the people who put the ridiculous time and effort into these games are the exact type of person SSB was originally meant to appeal to...... and you're saying these people aren't important in the slightest now?

...I cant believe this. No, Smash wasn't made for diehard fans. The main reason Sakurai made Smash because he thought it would be neat to have a fighting game with Nintendo characters. Not for the fanatics, but for the people wanted to see Mario against Link. We just became the aftermath, after everything was all said and done...

...Wow..... okay.... yeah L-cancelling was kind of one of the most important features the games have ever had. It (along with hitstun) is basically what allows combos - a staple and expected feature in fighting games. The purpose isn't just to speed up your recovery from an aerial, but rather you ability to immediately follow up an aerial with another move, and strike again before your opponent can recover - hence a combo. It is a MAJOR factor of what made the game fast paced, strategic, and... well.... a competitive fighting game....

...I'm kind of shocked you have the gal to criticize us on all this when you don't even understand the most basic functions or the extent in which they deepen the game, or how extensive the fanbase goes for all this. From this I'd gather that most of the refinements we're asking for are things you probably wouldn't even notice, so I don't see why you're complaining.

Because we clearly need all these techniques to have "depth", no, we don't. Look at Brawl, no L-canceling, no Wavedashing, but look! They came out okay! Huh, who knew...

I just get the feeling that people who don't care about the competitive nature of the series are just fishing for reasons to write it off and sweep our concerns under the rug since it doesn't concern you. If you don't care about it then don't post, don't go telling those of us who do care to stop trying. It's kind of insulting.

I love this quote, it shows to be just how "elitist" the Smash community is. "That's bad and you're bad" is what they say...

I don't get this. We seen the faster gameplay, he stated that "there's no tripping", implying he's been listening. Heck they even had Namco, creators of Tekken and Soul Caliber, to help them make a more competitively balanced. If anything, we should be happy, isn't this what we wanted? But instead, we just whine and complain, "Why isn't this like Melee", "Why's there no Wavedashing", "We've lost all hope in you Sakurai".
There's a good reason why we've been the brunt of many jokes before. And you, my friend, have given me a perfect example.

 

[MrsAccount]

Yet we buy smash for the feeling it gives. Heck most casuals will throw away smash 4 after like 2 weeks! The competitive crowd keeps the game alive: discovering the secrets mechanics and technical means of the game. While showing the games fun side.

I think you're overestimating what the competitive scene stands for. Knowing Nintendo's game quality record, people will assuredly have fun when they get to see Kirby suck up Ganondorf. Whilst it is good for fans to tell a company what they want out of a product, some here absolutely don't seem to enjoy the direction it's taking, which makes me wonder why you want to keep it alive in the first place.

Also we will come up with arguments to counter your reasons. If we win- then your reason was maybe flawed and not for the good of the game and vice versa. After all we are trying to make the game more enjoyable for everyone while adding in depth mechanics.

I think this shows another issue with the competitive scene: not everything is a bloody competition. There's not gonna be "winners" in this quote unquote argument. We're just fans of the series, not Sakurai who has to organize this for a living.

 

[Black Mantis]

I don't get this. We seen the faster gameplay, he stated that "there's no tripping", implying he's been listening. Heck they even had Namco, creators of Tekken and Soul Caliber, to help them make a more competitively balanced. If anything, we should be happy, isn't this what we wanted? But instead, we just whine and complain, "Why isn't this like Melee", "Why's there no Wavedashing", "We've lost all hope in you Sakurai".
There's a good reason why we've been the brunt of many jokes before. And you, my friend, have given me a perfect example.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Because we clearly need all these techniques to have "depth", no, we don't. Look at Brawl, no L-canceling, no Wavedashing, but look! They came out okay! Huh, who knew...

I think "okay" was the perfect word choice here in terms of game quality and success.

Brawl has a following, but it's completely overshadowed by its predecessor.

As a result of the Wii's large player base, Brawl enjoyed substantial short-term success, but at the cost of potential long-term success due to skepticism that has virtually never existed within the franchise prior to Brawl's launch.

So yes, Brawl came out "okay", but not everybody is content with mediocrity, nor should they be.

 

[ZelDan]

I do want SSB4 to be better than Brawl, though SSb4 doesn't need wavedashing or l-canceling to really accomplish that, as I feel there were bigger overall issues with Brawl. I'm not against wavedashing and l-canceling by any means, though they aren't an end all be all.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wow..... okay.... yeah L-cancelling was kind of one of the most important features the games have ever had. It (along with hitstun) is basically what allows combos - a staple and expected feature in fighting games. The purpose isn't just to speed up your recovery from an aerial, but rather you ability to immediately follow up an aerial with another move, and strike again before your opponent can recover - hence a combo. It is a MAJOR factor of what made the game fast paced, strategic, and... well.... a competitive fighting game.

I'm kind of shocked you have the gal to criticize us on all this when you don't even understand the most basic functions or the extent in which they deepen the game, or how extensive the fanbase goes for all this. From this I'd gather that most of the refinements we're asking for are things you probably wouldn't even notice, so I don't see why you're complaining.

What if characters now have the endlag as though they L-cancelled already?

Now they don't need to press a button to avoid getting more lag is a no choice situation. They get their combo while removing an tech that really isn't anything but testing technical ability for no real gameplay that is unique or adds depth. You could easily remove L-caneling and change the end lag of aerials so that they were as if they L-cancel and nothing gameplay wise would change.

Wavedashing is a better example, because it has gameplay to it while having technical depth.

 

[J1NG]

Smash wasn't made for diehard fans. The main reason Sakurai made Smash because he thought it would be neat to have a fighting game with Nintendo characters. Not for the fanatics, but for the people wanted to see Mario against Link.

I am sorry but I'm going to have to correct you on that.
Here's a snippet from an interview between Iwata and Sakurai:
"Iwata:
In retrospect, the main reason I undertook the project was to build a 4-player game that utilised the Nintendo 64 system’s unique 3D Control Stick. What were your reasons?

Sakurai:
Well, I wanted to offer an alternative to the two-dimensional fighting games that were crowding out the market. I also wanted to see if it was possible to make an interesting 4-player game that offered a new experience every time you play. Simply put, I was aiming to design a 4-player battle royal."
If you'd like to do the reading yourself, here's the address:
http://www.nintendo.co.uk/Iwata-Ask...e/1-Dragon-King-The-Fighting-Game-226141.html
Sakurai goes on to talk about why the game features Nintendo characters, by the way.