If SSB4 offers options for competitive players, what should they be/would they work?

[Dillo64]

Because we should be the ones represented, we should be the ones known. Why?... We weren't even around till Melee, which so happened to have a competitive scene. Don't act like we've been around forever, so we should deserve to have a bigger slice of the pie.

What? Of all the self-centered..... no, not a bigger slice. Just A slice.

Brawl actively shunned an entire demographic of gamer that had previously and vigorously contributed to the franchise's sales and popularity.

I'm not saying competitive gamers need to be in the center of the picture, just to actually be IN the picture.

At the end of the day I just want a game that everyone can enjoy. And as hard as it is to believe, competitive players are part of "everyone".



And 10+ years of dedication is nothing to scoff at. Not starting 2 years sooner than that hardly makes it any less of an impact.

...I cant believe this. No, Smash wasn't made for diehard fans. The main reason Sakurai made Smash because he thought it would be neat to have a fighting game with Nintendo characters. Not for the fanatics, but for the people wanted to see Mario against Link. We just became the aftermath, after everything was all said and done...

That is also incorrect as J1ng stated, but the jist of what I meant was more that they were one of the big audiences who enjoyed it and bought it, not that they were the only audience, or that it was meant specifically for them. Sorry if that was worded weird.

Point was that I feel it's pretty messed up to abandon a group of people who helped keep your series alive for so many years and put in the most love and dedication to it, even if that audience was one not initially expected.

Because we clearly need all these techniques to have "depth", no, we don't. Look at Brawl, no L-canceling, no Wavedashing, but look! They came out okay! Huh, who knew...

... okay... I'm trying really hard to be nice here... but no, it didn't "come out okay". If it did, we wouldn't be having this conversation, we wouldn't have so many fans disappointed, we wouldn't have Project M.

..... look, Brawl might have it's own little competitive scene but.. as far as competitive fighting games go, as far as the general appeal of fighting games and what gets players the most excited, as far as balance, as far as the application of skill, reflexes, options, and overall depth of the gameplay goes, Brawl is inferior to Melee. It's been out for six years and it hasn't come close to catching on as much as Melee, it's just not up to par or comparable in a competitive sense to other fighters in the same way Melee is. It was a step backwards in that aspect.

I want SSB4 to be a step forward for the competitive community, because they are just as much part of the SSB fanbase as anyone else, and I want the SSB series to continue being a series that appeals to everyone, and not entirely focused on one group.

I love this quote, it shows to be just how "elitist" the Smash community is. "That's bad and you're bad" is what they say...

Wait... so me suggesting that a lot of them are acting elitist....... is what makes me elitist? What?

Look. I'm just trying to find compromises here, that's why I made this thread. You can have your game and the competitive players can have their options. Everyone wins. How is that elitist?

I don't get this. We seen the faster gameplay, he stated that "there's no tripping", implying he's been listening. Heck they even had Namco, creators of Tekken and Soul Caliber, to help them make a more competitively balanced. If anything, we should be happy, isn't this what we wanted? But instead, we just whine and complain, "Why isn't this like Melee", "Why's there no Wavedashing", "We've lost all hope in you Sakurai".
There's a good reason why we've been the brunt of many jokes before. And you, my friend, have given me a perfect example.

1. Random tripping was honestly never that big a deal, it was just something people liked to focus on because it was so obviously bad. The main reasons Brawl never caught on with competitive players went much deeper than silly tripping. Besides, it wasn't even just a competitive problem, everyone hated tripping. Removing it doesn't show anything other than that Sakurai has common sense.

2. Sakurai relinquished his statement that Namco would be helping with the balancing. He said he would be doing the balancing/hitboxes himself again, like in Brawl: http://www.gamnesia.com/news/sakurai-is-balancing-the-new-smash-bros-games-by-himself#.Ut4c9bSIa00

3. I'm not whining and complaining with this thread, I'm making suggestions for a compromise. That's what this thread was about. Don't jump to conclusions.

Really, I want to believe in Sakurai, but until I see some more solid proof that he's actually thinking about the competitive players a little, I'm going to keep making suggestions like these. Again, I don't want it to be Melee again, and I don't want Brawl again either. I want a game that takes the best of both worlds, not just one or the other. So until Sakurai gives any specifics on what kind of competitive aspect will be available in SSB4 (if any) or we get some hands-on time with it at E3 or wherever from an expert, I'm going to keep speculating and making suggestions, because that's what these boards are for.

Again, all I want is compromise. If you think I'm a perfect example of a "whiny competitive player" or whatever, then you're the perfect example of someone who doesn't listen. Don't tell me to stop caring just because you don't.

 

[Dillo64]

What if characters now have the endlag as though they L-cancelled already?

Now they don't need to press a button to avoid getting more lag is a no choice situation. They get their combo while removing an tech that really isn't anything but testing technical ability for no real gameplay that is unique or adds depth. You could easily remove L-caneling and change the end lag of aerials so that they were as if they L-cancel and nothing gameplay wise would change.

Wavedashing is a better example, because it has gameplay to it while having technical depth.

Auto-L-Canceling, basically? That's an interesting idea.... the whole point is to get combos back to promote a more strategic and offensive balance in gameplay, so I guess so long as it accomplishes that then I'd be for it. It would even help promote the prospect of combos to casual/core players by making them easier to pull off. Not sure what kind of effect that'll have on the competitive scene though.

The only risk is that, because it would be a lot easier to pull off, it might make some characters who have a particularly good/easy combo(s) overused. One of the biggest problems behind Snaking in Mario Kart was that it wasn't only winning tech, but it was easy to learn and use, so EVERYBODY did it, and that kind of ruined everything. I don't think Auto L-canceling would be on the same level as that, but you never know.

If it were up to me, I'd play it safe and leave it the way it is, since it also encourages players to get better at the game by having more, slightly harder techniques available to master.

 

[J1NG]

Auto-L-Canceling, basically? That's an interesting idea.... the whole point is to get combos back to promote a more strategic and offensive balance in gameplay, so I guess so long as it accomplishes that then I'd be for it. It would even help promote the prospect of combos to casual/core players by making them easier to pull off. Not sure what kind of effect that'll have on the competitive scene though.

Well, some players will tell you that L-Cancelling, while a strategically empty mechanic, was important in creating a skill ceiling that added to the nature of the competitive scene. Combos became more impressive due to their technical difficulty, while also separating the "boys from the men". I do agree that there's a problem with L-Cancelling when there's never a bad time to use it, which is why I suggested an idea for a modified version of it in another thread. Looking back on the idea though, it may be enough to limit the use of L-Cancelling to once per combo string, while making lighter air attacks have less/zero landing lag altogether(not including my ideas for also reducing the amount of inputs required to L-Cancel).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Auto-L-Canceling, basically? That's an interesting idea.... the whole point is to get combos back to promote a more strategic and offensive balance in gameplay, so I guess so long as it accomplishes that then I'd be for it. It would even help promote the prospect of combos to casual/core players by making them easier to pull off. Not sure what kind of effect that'll have on the competitive scene though.

The only risk is that, because it would be a lot easier to pull off, it might make some characters who have a particularly good/easy combo(s) overused. One of the biggest problems behind Snaking in Mario Kart was that it wasn't only winning tech, but it was easy to learn and use, so EVERYBODY did it, and that kind of ruined everything. I don't think Auto L-canceling would be on the same level as that, but you never know.

If it were up to me, I'd play it safe and leave it the way it is, since it also encourages players to get better at the game by having more, slightly harder techniques available to master.

I don't like the, it might make some too easy or good argument. That's a character balance problem and less a mechanical problem.

I'd remove it, because it asks a false choice, "you want more or less lag?" There is no strategic depth to it. Is it technical? Yes.

Does it really add to a gameplay experience? It really doesn't.

 

[pitthekit]

I want ssb4 to have brawls buffer system, ground play, iasa frames, dacus,glide toss and brawls oos options. Yet I want melees wavedash, speed, hit stun, shield stun no l-cancel(kinda worthless just re adjust certain characters aerial ending lags) ..... And I need not want melees lottery system for trophys.

... Maybe smash 4 could just have melees speed, hit stun brawls oos options on poorly spaced aerials with completely new mechanics with new but enjoyable experiences.

I lived without wavedash in brawl I just walked or dash then shield to mimick wave dashing effects.

I feel like we should have brawls air dodge but you can only dodge twice in the air.

I don't want people to air dodge out of hit stun because this makes teching really hard to accomplish ( it was easier to tech in melee than brawl)

 

[Substitution]

I am sorry but I'm going to have to correct you on that.
Here's a snippet from an interview between Iwata and Sakurai:
"Iwata:
In retrospect, the main reason I undertook the project was to build a 4-player game that utilised the Nintendo 64 system’s unique 3D Control Stick. What were your reasons?

Sakurai:
Well, I wanted to offer an alternative to the two-dimensional fighting games that were crowding out the market. I also wanted to see if it was possible to make an interesting 4-player game that offered a new experience every time you play. Simply put, I was aiming to design a 4-player battle royal."
If you'd like to do the reading yourself, here's the address:
http://www.nintendo.co.uk/Iwata-Ask...e/1-Dragon-King-The-Fighting-Game-226141.html
Sakurai goes on to talk about why the game features Nintendo characters, by the way.

Wait! Wait... "Battle royale" huh? No, that was the reason for "Dragon King", but then why the switch? Why change to Nintendo characters?

I guess fans were upset by the prospect of pitting characters like Mario, Link and Pikachu against one another. We had a hard time convincing them of what the fun and depth that were so obviously present in the Smash Bros. trademark fighting style would offer.

Who are these people?! Who had this mentality?!

 

[J1NG]

Wait! Wait... "Battle royale" huh? No, that was the reason for "Dragon King", but then why the switch? Why change to Nintendo characters?!

It says why they switched to Nintendo characters, as I stated before.
"Sakurai: I asked to use Nintendo characters since it was so hard to accurately convey to the players the atmosphere of the gaming world where they play a fighting game on home console. You have to have some main characters in a fighting game, and when you line up character 1, character 2, character 3 and so on, the main characters end up blurring together. With a game for the arcade, it’s okay for character development to take a backseat since players are content with the fighting. With a fighting game for the home console, however, you have to set up the general image or the atmosphere of the gaming world right from the start or else the game suffers. That’s why I asked to use Nintendo characters."

Who are these people?! Who had this mentality?!

I can't say for sure, but I'm also not sure if you're suggesting that these "nay-sayers" were in fact the "hardcore" gamers that you seem to have a problem with. If that is the case, you would no longer be talking about competitive Melee fans; you'd be taking this discussion to a whole new level. If that's not the case, then I'm sure that a little clarity would be helpful.

 

[Substitution]

I can't say for sure, but I'm also not sure if you're suggesting that these "nay-sayers" were in fact the "hardcore" gamers that you seem to have a problem with. If that is the case, you would no longer be talking about competitive Melee fans; you'd be taking this discussion to a whole new level. If that's not the case, then I'm sure that a little clarity would be helpful.

No, I wasn't yelling at Melee fans. I was joking at the idea of people being opposed to "a fighting game where Pikachu can fight against Mario".

 

[J1NG]

No, I wasn't yelling at Melee fans. I was joking at the idea of people being opposed to "a fighting game where Pikachu can fight against Mario".

I see. To each their own I suppose. Intentional design or not, I personally dislike fighting games that have players looking for ways to execute one ideal combo over and over again.

 

[Blade-Fox]

I'd like to see more of an emphasis on training players. I think the general training video is great for the basics but I like how some series (like Blazblue) take you through terminology, gameplay strategies, characters and their strategies and then gives you examples of all those things and then immediately after, lets you try and do those things.

I'd also like to see something like with what Skullgirls did where you could activate training mode mid-match and see frame data and hitbox data as well. Training mode was way more in depth than mid-match training mode though so I'd like to see stuff like that as well. Being able to record movements to play back for the computer would be awesome too.

 

[lordvaati]

New edge grabbing mechanics in today's pic, which basically kills planking.

Proff enough for you that it's getting better, TC?

 

[SKM_NeoN]

I'm not sure giving recovering players priority over edge-hoggers is a good idea (Though Sakurai's descriptions were vague, so the impact this will have on the game isn't apparent yet). I suppose it depends on how the rest of the recovering mechanics are changed, but my initial impression is overall negative. I hope his goal isn't to let grandma take on experienced players again.

 

[nessokman]

Everything from melee, especially wavedashing and L-cancelling. In fact, let's just get melee 2.0 or a remake of melee in HD.

 

[J1NG]

I'm not sure giving recovering players priority over edge-hoggers is a good idea (Though Sakurai's descriptions were vague, so the impact this will have on the game isn't apparent yet). I suppose it depends on how the rest of the recovering mechanics are changed, but my initial impression is overall negative. I hope his goal isn't to let grandma take on experienced players again.

Hey come on, what if Grandma really puts her time in?

Everything from melee, especially wavedashing and L-cancelling. In fact, let's just get melee 2.0 or a remake of melee in HD.

Or how about something new that's equally competitive and less problematic?

 

[nessokman]

Hey come on, what if Grandma really puts her time in?

Or how about something new that's equally competitive and less problematic?

Melee could never be problematic. Melee is perfection.

Spoiler

I gotta go jack off to my melee disc

Spoiler

 

[J1NG]

Melee could never be problematic. Melee is perfection.

Spoiler

I gotta go jack off to my melee disc

Spoiler

Leel.
Now, do you have anything to contribute to the OP besides the lulzorz? If not, then I'm afraid I'll have to slap you on the knuckles with a ruler.

 

[nessokman]

Leel.
Now, do you have anything to contribute to the OP besides the lulzorz? If not, then I'm afraid I'll have to slap you on the knuckles with a ruler.

Spoiler

 

[J1NG]

Spoiler

View attachment 7065

Depends on the person that you picture to be behind an upside-down default Facebook avatar.

 

[Dillo64]

New edge grabbing mechanics in today's pic, which basically kills planking.

Proff enough for you that it's getting better, TC?

It's funny, I didn't even know what planking was until everyone started saying its been nerfed/fixed. I'm not even sure why it existed in the first place.

I'm glad he's fixing Brawl's mistakes but that still doesn't convince me he's focusing on the competitive aspect, or just trying to get rid of any tactic he deems cheap or too advantageous. And whether or not he considers a lot of the more legit ATs cheap or not is yet to be seen.

I'm with NeoN, I'm not convinced that these new ledge tactics are to deepen the metagame or just to further defuse Edge Guarding techs.

Depends on the person that you picture to be behind an upside-down default Facebook avatar.

I thought it was a ravine between two silhouetted cliffsides

 

[J1NG]

I thought it was a ravine between two silhouetted cliffsides

 

[smashbro29]

Reading around a bit here. L-cancelling is stupid as hell. They should just speed up recovery time off aerials.

 

[Renji64]

I have lowered my standards so much for this series since brawl it is sad just for me it needs L-canceling and decent gameplay mechics and faster than brawl. It is annoying people can't comprehend people have fun playing competively. Since now i have P:M to fall back i might not play smash 4 seriously unless it is good. After brawl i just don't know if it is just gonna be catered to the casual audience only then no point in me buying inferior new installments.

 

[smashbro29]

Random stage switch, turn items off, stock+time. The end.