Ideal Changes for Samus to become viable

[FlAlex]

Less endlag on missiles would make them a more effective pressure tool imo. And a safe landing option wouldn't hurt, since basically everything that one could use to land safely has downsides and more often than not it's just retreating to the ledge every single time unless you play risky mindgames with an opponent.



Just wanna point out that canon is often disregarded Smash-wise.

I mean, 'canonically', the Screw Attack murders nigh-everything it touches, but here it's just a recovery move.

WHICH is why ScrewAttack should be Samus' Nair. It would work like MK's, Kirby's and Pikachu's Nair, but with multi-hits and electrical damage.

And still, I don't see the Morph bomb move getting a buff that insanely good.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well I'm kinda dragging things away from the main topic again buuut...

Thing is that you can't just slap a ton of "unique, cannon" moves and expect it to just work out. It'll work with some characters, but that's usually when they're built from the ground up. As I understand it all of Samus's aerials are important to her playstyle, besides maybe Fair. Replacing her best landing option with what's decidedly not a landing option ain't going to help her any.

For an example I understand better, look at Dark Pit. He's known for kicking things, and yet there's only the one move that's a kick, Utilt, and he and Pit share the move anyway. So, why not give him a kick move over something else? Going over dash attack might work but Pit's is really good already. Bair? Another important landing tool. Ftilt? Pit's loaded with proper up close moves already, and even though Dark Pit's is weaker it's still really good at catching ledge getups. Dair? Probably the best Dair in the game since it's so incredibly versatile. Most anything else is just too important to trade in for some fanservice.

 

[White_Pointer]

Okay...so...

What do we as a community really want for Samus? We're not unreasonable, we just went the playing field levelled out. So can we have a consensus and agreement on the changes we want?

Right now, I see:

1. Grab needs to be improved with less lag like Lucas, or more active frames like ZSS (maybe can still grab an opponent as it's coming back?).
2. At least one throw needs to be a kill throw at ~140%+ (up throw?), or confirm into a kill move. Down throw angle should be altered so it combos more reliably.
3. Down smash should be a kill move at ~140%+
4. Slightly faster run speed.
5. Fix up smash so opponents can't fall out of it.
6. Give forward air a larger hitbox.
7. Bombs explode on contact and provide some kind of landing option.
8. Hurtboxes/disjoints on up b changed so it doesn't get beaten out by many other moves such as Mario's down air (partial invincibility maybe?).

Nice to have:

1. Improved frame data on moves like down air, up air, neutral air, down tilt.
2. Remove sourspot on forward tilt (move does the same damage regardless of where it's hit).
3. Jab 1 should link to Jab 2.
4. Increase roll speed.
5. Some kind of change to charge shot so it's not nullified by so much of the cast (eg chargeable in air, or not clank with or lose to other projectiles, etc).

Does that about sum it up?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Okay...so...

What do we as a community really want for Samus? We're not unreasonable, we just went the playing field levelled out. So can we have a consensus and agreement on the changes we want?

Right now, I see:

1. Grab needs to be improved with less lag like Lucas, or more active frames like ZSS (maybe can still grab an opponent as it's coming back?).
2. At least one throw needs to be a kill throw at ~140%+ (up throw?), or confirm into a kill move. Down throw angle should be altered so it combos more reliably.
3. Down smash should be a kill move at ~140%+
4. Slightly faster run speed.
5. Fix up smash so opponents can't fall out of it.
6. Give forward air a larger hitbox.
7. Bombs explode on contact and provide some kind of landing option.
8. Hurtboxes/disjoints on up b changed so it doesn't get beaten out by many other moves such as Mario's down air (partial invincibility maybe?).

Nice to have:

1. Improved frame data on moves like down air, up air, neutral air, down tilt.
2. Remove sourspot on forward tilt.
3. Jab 1 should link to Jab 2.
4. Increase roll speed.
5. Some kind of change to charge shot so it's not nullified by so much of the cast (eg chargeable in air, or not clank with or lose to other projectiles, etc).

Does that about sum it up?

I'd also add bigger hitbox size on Fsmash and bigger sourspot hitbox that reaches all the way to her body. I'd add that in the top part. Maybe add in Dash Attack hitbox buff somewhere so that it doesn't whiff at close range (to fix this, they'd just have to make it come out on frame 8 like in Brawl, rather than frame 10) I also don't think the run speed is as vital as having a quicker jumpsquat, that has just gotten worse as the games went on. I'd also add the Jab buff to the top area.

But everything mentioned here is correct. Personally, the grab stuff, including the speed of it, Dthrow angle being more reliable, and having a stronger kill throw, are what I would like to see the most.

 

[White_Pointer]

I'd also add bigger hitbox size on Fsmash and bigger sourspot hitbox that reaches all the way to her body. I'd add that in the top part. Maybe add in Dash Attack hitbox buff somewhere so that it doesn't whiff at close range (to fix this, they'd just have to make it come out on frame 8 like in Brawl, rather than frame 10) I also don't think the run speed is as vital as having a quicker jumpsquat, that has just gotten worse as the games went on. I'd also add the Jab buff to the top area.

But everything mentioned here is correct. Personally, the grab stuff, including the speed of it, Dthrow angle being more reliable, and having a stronger kill throw, are what I would like to see the most.

I'd personally just like an increase in the size of the sweet spot of her forward smash, right now it's pretty tiny and difficult to hit.

I agree with others that have mentioned that dash attack doesn't need buffing though. Dash attack is a really solid move. Sure it would be nice if it came out a little earlier but honestly you just need to get used to when you press the button for it to connect. Of all the moves to give a frame data or hitbox buff to I would not pick dash attack first. There are other moves more in need of that...such as fair, dair, uair, dtilt and grab.

I didn't list the jab linking in the top section because it's been stated that jab 1 not linking to jab 2 is a deliberate design decision - for whatever reason - so it's very unlikely to change. If they did decide to surprise us and fix it though, it would be great.

 

[FlAlex]

Okay...so...

What do we as a community really want for Samus? We're not unreasonable, we just went the playing field levelled out. So can we have a consensus and agreement on the changes we want?

Right now, I see:

1. Grab needs to be improved with less lag like Lucas, or more active frames like ZSS (maybe can still grab an opponent as it's coming back?).
2. At least one throw needs to be a kill throw at ~140%+ (up throw?), or confirm into a kill move. Down throw angle should be altered so it combos more reliably.
3. Down smash should be a kill move at ~140%+
4. Slightly faster run speed.
5. Fix up smash so opponents can't fall out of it.
6. Give forward air a larger hitbox.
7. Bombs explode on contact and provide some kind of landing option.
8. Hurtboxes/disjoints on up b changed so it doesn't get beaten out by many other moves such as Mario's down air (partial invincibility maybe?).

Nice to have:

1. Improved frame data on moves like down air, up air, neutral air, down tilt.
2. Remove sourspot on forward tilt (move does the same damage regardless of where it's hit).
3. Jab 1 should link to Jab 2.
4. Increase roll speed.
5. Some kind of change to charge shot so it's not nullified by so much of the cast (eg chargeable in air, or not clank with or lose to other projectiles, etc).

Does that about sum it up?

That's about right, for me at least. I don't agree with all of it, but I find this list acceptable.

 

[Gypsy_Panic]

Okay...so...

What do we as a community really want for Samus? We're not unreasonable, we just went the playing field levelled out. So can we have a consensus and agreement on the changes we want?

Right now, I see:

1. Grab needs to be improved with less lag like Lucas, or more active frames like ZSS (maybe can still grab an opponent as it's coming back?).
2. At least one throw needs to be a kill throw at ~140%+ (up throw?), or confirm into a kill move. Down throw angle should be altered so it combos more reliably.
3. Down smash should be a kill move at ~140%+
4. Slightly faster run speed.
5. Fix up smash so opponents can't fall out of it.
6. Give forward air a larger hitbox.
7. Bombs explode on contact and provide some kind of landing option.
8. Hurtboxes/disjoints on up b changed so it doesn't get beaten out by many other moves such as Mario's down air (partial invincibility maybe?).

Nice to have:

1. Improved frame data on moves like down air, up air, neutral air, down tilt.
2. Remove sourspot on forward tilt (move does the same damage regardless of where it's hit).
3. Jab 1 should link to Jab 2.
4. Increase roll speed.
5. Some kind of change to charge shot so it's not nullified by so much of the cast (eg chargeable in air, or not clank with or lose to other projectiles, etc).

Does that about sum it up?

Pretty much, yeah. For me I'd honestly if nothing else have the hurt boxes fixed. That alone would make me sigh in relief.

I feel like we're gonna get "good" buffs next patch. Nothing great. But good buffs overall. I also feel like ZSS is gonna get nerfed slightly. I personally don't think she needs it. But that's the feeling I'm getting.

 

[White_Pointer]

Pretty much, yeah. For me I'd honestly if nothing else have the hurt boxes fixed. That alone would make me sigh in relief.

I feel like we're gonna get "good" buffs next patch. Nothing great. But good buffs overall. I also feel like ZSS is gonna get nerfed slightly. I personally don't think she needs it. But that's the feeling I'm getting.

ZSS does need toning back a bit, but they can't do that without also knocking Sheik down a peg or two as well. Those two characters are very closely matched right now, almost even I'd say. Both need pulling back, and characters like Samus need some love.

I'd settle for "good" buffs. Anything is better than nothing which is what we got last patch. Even some improvements to her frame data would help immensely.

 

[Vyrnx]

Maybe this is dumb, but I am pretty sure they buff characters in waves. They addressed a certain group of characters heavily in the last patch, and it probably took them a while. It's telling that Samus, Zelda, Jigglypuff, and Palutena among others who Japan especially considers bad characters were not buffed. So I wouldn't be surprised if all those characters got some pretty decent changes next month.

 

[meleebrawler]

Maybe this is dumb, but I am pretty sure they buff characters in waves. They addressed a certain group of characters heavily in the last patch, and it probably took them a while. It's telling that Samus, Zelda, Jigglypuff, and Palutena among others who Japan especially considers bad characters were not buffed. So I wouldn't be surprised if all those characters got some pretty decent changes next month.

But Samus has been getting small adjustments the entire time. Maybe not all of them were necessarily good but I'd hardly call her ignored. Yet one patch where nothing happens and people act as if she's been forsaken since the beginning.

 

[Vyrnx]

But Samus has been getting small adjustments the entire time. Maybe not all of them were necessarily good but I'd hardly call her ignored. Yet one patch where nothing happens and people act as if she's been forsaken since the beginning.

I don't mean to be rude because most of your posts, especially in general forums, I respect. But you are spewing nonsense...

There's this thing on Smashboards where a lot of people think Samus is worse than she actually is. And then there are people who think Samus is better than she actually is. You think Samus is better than she actually is, and consistently come here and tell the people who have spent a year playing this character that. Granted, I would rather have people running around saying Samus is mid tier than bottom 5, but it doesn't change the fact that neither one is true. And I appreciate that you recognize the character's strengths where others don't, especially from an outside perspective. If you peruse these forums and look at all of the contributions that have been made from various users since the game's release, you might have respect for some people's opinions on here. People like Dungeonmaster and Hark who you argue with know more about Samus than you. I have nothing against new players getting into the character, but at least understand that--it's nobody's fault, it's just a matter of time commitment to the character, just like you would know more about Mewtwo than us.

Secondly, and this is what annoyed me, you didn't read my post before replying. Nowhere in my post did I say Samus was being ignored, nowhere did I say that she hadn't been getting small adjustments. Nowhere did I say that Samus has been forsaken since the beginning. Don't put words in my mouth. My post stated that I think there's a pattern with patches, and I would not be surprised if Samus got buffed along with the other characters that Japan in particular, as well as NA, considers low tier. I don't know how that implies anything that you argued in your post.

Thirdly, to be frank, you are delusional when it comes to Samus. You make posts addressing how unimportant strengths, like shield breaking, make up for her bad grab, how she can apply constant pressure following a dthrow... The first just isn't true, and though Samus is good at breaking shields on For Glory and low level tourney play, there is no way Samus is going to be getting shield breaks on top players, or even mid level players. Weigh the chance of getting a shield break maybe once a month vs the ability for Lucas to get a grab (and insane grab reward) multiple times a game. Samus' dthrow applies no pressure when DI away plus jump escapes everything unless you are a computer. Samus has legitimate strengths, and we know about them. These are the boards that found all of them. She gets a lot of slack for things she is actually good at, for moves that are great, etc. And thank you for realizing that, because most people do not. But Samus cannot reset the neutral the way viable characters can. And for the viable characters that can't reset the neutral, like DK, they have compensation that Samus doesn't.

You also say that Samus has gotten small tweaks all along the way. First off, no she has not, she has had 2+ updates ignore her and one nerf her. We are thankful for any and all buffs we get, and we recognize that we have gotten buffs, but Samus is one of a few low tier characters who has not made significant leaps in viability because of her buffs. Wherever Samus is now is about where she was five patches ago, and the reason we are doing alright with the character despite that is because we are working better with what we had then, and not new changes from patches. In fact, Samus is dropping. Many other characters have been buffed significantly, Luigi has been nerfed significantly, both of these things are bad for Samus' tournament use. You have also cited buffs that make no difference to the character when used by high level players. The fair landing lag "buff" I would argue is more of a fix since there is no situation in which Samus would ever intentionally use a fair if she will land with lag. The landing lag change was nice because it helps with accidental misinput SH fairs, but this was a change that basically made no difference for Samus' viability at all since she only ever uses rising fair.

We actually do know the character and what frustrates me is that you pretend like we don't, that we are ungrateful. It's because most of us know that Samus is low tier... And Samus mains have been tame about this most recent patch. You should have seen the last patch thread after we didn't get buffed (if you will acknowledge that we have had a past patch ignore us). To pretend like Samus is fine with no buffs is ridiculous. She isn't as bad off as other characters, but she has inherent weaknesses that you are completely ignoring.

 

[zblaqk]

I agree 100% Vyrnx. She definitely has moves and traits that inherently prevent her from being bottom 5, however she is most definitely low tier. What matters though is that we have dedicated players here whom despite the lack of meaningful attention in patchs (same as palutena, jiggs, zelda, dhd etc) and the general misinformation spread about her forces these players to really try and optimize her play and show both her potential as a character now and expose her actual flaws.

 

[JAZZ_]

REMOVED BY AUTHOR

 

[Gypsy_Panic]

It's recently came to my attention that, after looking into advanced techniques, Samus can't B-Reverse her projectiles. Now, I'm not 100% sure if this has always been like this (someone please inlighten me ), or if other characters suffer the same hindrance.

But if it turns out we're the only one. Just like how we're the only one unable to charge our charge shot in the air. Then I'm convinced Sakurai has a personal vendetta against the character and I will then continue to break my copy of Sm4sh in half.

Edit: just for clarification. I'm talking about B-Reversing (changing momentum after inputting a special move) Not B-Pivot (Simply turning around and firing your sissies

 

[zblaqk]

It's recently came to my attention that, after looking into advanced techniques, Samus can't B-Reverse her projectiles. Now, I'm not 100% sure if this has always been like this (someone please inlighten me ), or if other characters suffer the same hindrance.

But if it turns out we're the only one. Just like how we're the only one unable to charge our charge shot in the air. Then I'm convinced Sakurai has a personal vendetta against the character and I will then continue to break my copy of Sm4sh in half.

Edit: just for clarification. I'm talking about B-Reversing (changing momentum after inputting a special move) Not B-Pivot (Simply turning around and firing your sissies

This is unfortunately true.

 

[LancerStaff]

Then I'm convinced Sakurai has a personal vendetta against the character and I will then continue to break my copy of Sm4sh in half.

See, this is why people tend to be so dismissive of Samus players, joking or not. But anyway...

Not being able to B-reverse her projectiles is a pretty minor thing, don't you think? Missiles are a side special already and I don't think any other charge shot type projectile can be B-reversed.

And of course the other charge shot moves have their own limitations. Thoron and the Bonus Fruit can't be used to camp with due to how they charge in levels, Lucario's is highly Aura dependent and Mewtwo is made of glass unlike Samus who's one of the heaviest characters.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Or wavebounce. Wavebouncing would be very cool.
I hesitate again to say I can read the mind of the designer, but I *think* the logic is that being able to instantly turn around the CS is better than a traditional b-reverse. The reverse CS is frame free and does in fact true combo.
Again, with the same hesitation, I *think* that Samus' missiles and SM are not designed as actual projectiles. They share none of the "good" qualities you would expect from projectiles, like zoning, hard to hit/reflect/counter, mobility options (wavebounce, or just simply full hop usefulness) and basic projectile frame data (45 frames endlag). Because they have combo capability they're bereft of all the other properties.
The CS is a projectile smash attack, and the missiles are "starters" for it. Albeit 20 frame startup and 60 frame endlag starters... which are basically smash attacks...

 

[Gypsy_Panic]

This is unfortunately true.

I've just tested this myself. Most characters with similar moves are able to b-reverse. Why it's like this i don't know. I could just suck it up and say "meh". But why? I mean why not allow the option with charge shot? Every other characters charge shot us b-reversible. Why just ours? Sure it probably isn't that useful. But still why take away the option so many other characters have?

See, this is why people tend to be so dismissive of Samus players, joking or not. But anyway...

Not being able to B-reverse her projectiles is a pretty minor thing, don't you think? Missiles are a side special already and I don't think any other charge shot type projectile can be B-reversed.

And of course the other charge shot moves have their own limitations. Thoron and the Bonus Fruit can't be used to camp with due to how they charge in levels, Lucario's is highly Aura dependent and Mewtwo is made of glass unlike Samus who's one of the heaviest characters.

I will agree it is minor and probably even useless for Samus. But why not make it an option like everyone else? This is what's puzzling me. I truly can't see a good reason to not include it if most of the cast is able to do it. It just feels... wrong? Like not much consideration went into Samus when they made her compared to everyone else.

I guess the only thing to do at this point is suck it up and except that Sakurai for what ever reason just chooses to ignore Samus

 

[DungeonMaster]

LancerStaff could you please make yourself useful to this forum and go count how many times Sakurai has killed Samus in his nintendo directs vs. other characters? Include the main intro video as well. A table would be nice.
Some of use would like to know that number out of sheer curiosity - and if you did, and it turned out he kills other characters more, I might actually listen to you.
Otherwise claims of a bias are not completely off-base.
I'm half joking and half not, go do the math and get back to us, I don't have the time of day otherwise.

 

[Gypsy_Panic]

Or wavebounce. Wavebouncing would be very cool.
I hesitate again to say I can read the mind of the designer, but I *think* the logic is that being able to instantly turn around the CS is better than a traditional b-reverse. The reverse CS is frame free and does in fact true combo.
Again, with the same hesitation, I *think* that Samus' missiles and SM are not designed as actual projectiles. They share none of the "good" qualities you would expect from projectiles, like zoning, hard to hit/reflect/counter, mobility options (wavebounce, or just simply full hop usefulness) and basic projectile frame data (45 frames endlag). Because they have combo capability they're bereft of all the other properties.
The CS is a projectile smash attack, and the missiles are "starters" for it. Albeit 20 frame startup and 60 frame endlag starters... which are basically smash attacks...

I can totally see your point with the missiles. And at this point I'm willing to agree. Even though i suspect that with enough testing, it would probably be proven that other characters are able to combo with their projectiles and to a better degree. But there's just me being bitter .

And as for the charge shot being better used during b-pivots. Yes. I completely agree. It still makes no damn sense as to why we're the only ones with a un b-reversible charge special. But its just Sakurai things i guess.

 

[LancerStaff]

I've just tested this myself. Most characters with similar moves are able to b-reverse. Why it's like this i don't know. I could just suck it up and say "meh". But why? I mean why not allow the option with charge shot? Every other characters charge shot us b-reversible. Why just ours? Sure it probably isn't that useful. But still why take away the option so many other characters have?

I will agree it is minor and probably even useless for Samus. But why not make it an option like everyone else? This is what's puzzling me. I truly can't see a good reason to not include it if most of the cast is able to do it. It just feels... wrong? Like not much consideration went into Samus when they made her compared to everyone else.

I guess the only thing to do at this point is suck it up and except that Sakurai for what ever reason just chooses to ignore Samus

Because it can have glitchey properties on some moves. Try Zard's Rock Smash. Little lazy (at least on missiles, on CS I think it's for balance) but ah well.

LancerStaff could you please make yourself useful to this forum and go count how many times Sakurai has killed Samus in his nintendo directs vs. other characters? Include the main intro video as well. A table would be nice.
Some of use would like to know that number out of sheer curiosity - and if you did, and it turned out he kills other characters more, I might actually listen to you.
Otherwise claims of a bias are not completely off-base.
I'm half joking and half not, go do the math and get back to us, I don't have the time of day otherwise.

Pit's been a punching bag more then Samus has, and yes that's before Palutena and Bayonetta's trailers. Him and Luigi were the go-to crash test dummies for the SSB direct.

No really man, this is laughable. He's not biased against Samus or Metroid or whatever else.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Pit's been a punching bag more then Samus has, and yes that's before Palutena and Bayonetta's trailers. Him and Luigi were the go-to crash test dummies for the SSB direct.

Last I checked, the "angel killer" bayonnetta was introduced by Pit killing bowser - and for no good reason, Samus as an afterthought, and kid icarus angel was kept alive. Now go count.

 

[Gypsy_Panic]

Because it can have glitchey properties on some moves. Try Zard's Rock Smash. Little lazy (at least on missiles, on CS I think it's for balance) but ah well.

If that was the case then why are other charge specials b-reversible? Not trying to argue. Just sayi

 

[FlAlex]

See, this is why people tend to be so dismissive of Samus players, joking or not. But anyway...

Not being able to B-reverse her projectiles is a pretty minor thing, don't you think? Missiles are a side special already and I don't think any other charge shot type projectile can be B-reversed.

And of course the other charge shot moves have their own limitations. Thoron and the Bonus Fruit can't be used to camp with due to how they charge in levels, Lucario's is highly Aura dependent and Mewtwo is made of glass unlike Samus who's one of the heaviest characters.

Posts like yours are why you are dismissed...

"Not being able to B-reverse her projectiles is a pretty minor thing, don't you think?"
Nope. All tools are useful in some time or another.
Says, the Pit main, who can change arrow directions at will, while charging. (Keep this point in mind for a later comment).

"Missiles are a side special already..""
Now if only Missiles were a good zoning projectile....

"I don't think any other charge shot type projectile can be B-reversed."
Wrong.

"Thoron and the Bonus Fruit can't be used to camp with due to how they charge in levels,..."
Ya, because charge shot can be used to camp

"Lucario's is highly Aura dependent..."
And Samus is CS dependent, what's your point? (Plus, Lucario still has the advantage, since taking stocks in this game happens, on average, around a hundred percent. Add that damage and KBG from Aura with his increased recovery distance, and you have little reason to not give Samus a, as you would put it, "minor thing.")

"Mewtwo is made of glass unlike Samus who's one of the heaviest characters."
Just because Mewtwo has a problem, doesn't mean Samus should have a projectile nerf (hell, not even a nerf, just a removal of a basic "minor thing"). By that logic, the projectiles on light weights should suck since they can recover well. Remember my comment on Pit's arrows? Link has a worse recovery distance than pit, shouldn't Pit's projectiles be nerfed then, to balance Link and Pit out? And before you say something about the asymmetrical balancing of Smash, and how your example is different, Mewtwo has several advantages over Samus, that I could argue, mean Samus's CS should be buffed beyond B-reversal. Mewtwo has a faster run speed than Samus, better recovery, and superior kill set-ups into Fair. Mewtwo can also just as easily, if not more so easily, gimp as well as Samus because of his Bair.

Cannot we, as people who have payed for this product, criticize, nay, SUGGEST, how to make the product more enjoyable?

 

[FlAlex]

LancerStaff could you please make yourself useful to this forum and go count how many times Sakurai has killed Samus in his nintendo directs vs. other characters? Include the main intro video as well. A table would be nice.
Some of use would like to know that number out of sheer curiosity - and if you did, and it turned out he kills other characters more, I might actually listen to you.
Otherwise claims of a bias are not completely off-base.
I'm half joking and half not, go do the math and get back to us, I don't have the time of day otherwise.

This. So much this.
edit: typo

 

[JAZZ_]

REMOVED BY AUTHOR

 

[LancerStaff]

Last I checked, the "angel killer" bayonnetta was introduced by Pit killing bowser - and for no good reason, Samus as an afterthought, and kid icarus angel was kept alive. Now go count.

Why am I doing your dirty work? Prove your own point.

I actually bothered to note every instance Pit appeared in the Smash Direct a long time ago, and noted that he and Luigi were almost always the chew toy. At least thirty times Pit was the one being beat up.

If that was the case then why are other charge specials b-reversible? Not trying to argue. Just sayi

Don't think they can be...

Posts like yours are why you are dismissed...

"Not being able to B-reverse her projectiles is a pretty minor thing, don't you think?"
Nope. All tools are useful in some time or another.
Says, the Pit main, who can change arrow directions at will, while charging. (Keep this point in mind for a later comment).

"Missiles are a side special already..""
Now if only Missiles were a good zoning projectile....

"I don't think any other charge shot type projectile can be B-reversed."
Wrong.

"Thoron and the Bonus Fruit can't be used to camp with due to how they charge in levels,..."
Ya, because charge shot can be used to camp

"Lucario's is highly Aura dependent..."
And Samus is CS dependent, what's your point? (Plus, Lucario still has the advantage, since taking stocks in this game happens, on average, around a hundred percent. Add that damage and KBG from Aura with his increased recovery distance, and you have little reason to not give Samus a, as you would put it, "minor thing.")

"Mewtwo is made of glass unlike Samus who's one of the heaviest characters."
Just because Mewtwo has a problem, doesn't mean Samus should have a projectile nerf (hell, not even a nerf, just a removal of a basic "minor thing"). By that logic, the projectiles on light weights should suck since they can recover well. Remember my comment on Pit's arrows? Link has a worse recovery distance than pit, shouldn't Pit's projectiles be nerfed then, to balance Link and Pit out? And before you say something about the asymmetrical balancing of Smash, and how your example is different, Mewtwo has several advantages over Samus, that I could argue, mean Samus's CS should be buffed beyond B-reversal. Mewtwo has a faster run speed than Samus, better recovery, and superior kill set-ups into Fair. Mewtwo can also just as easily, if not more so easily, gimp as well as Samus because of his Bair.

Cannot we, as people who have payed for this product, criticize, nay, SUGGEST, how to make the product more enjoyable?

I'm not the one being overly hostile.

The game is primarily balanced for FFAs. Not 1v1s. Samus just doesn't gel with 1v1s as well as other characters.

Namely I was pointing out how bogus this whole Sakurai bais thing is when you also have ZSS as the second best character.

You guys, Lancer does this every time, he likes to poke around our community just to incite arguments, He'll throw out inaccurate blanket statements about Samus and try to put us as a community down in the process. Obvious troll is obvious. I think he just likes getting conversations out of people, he wants the attention nothing more, I say we don't give him any.

I mean you gotta have some obscure agenda to go to the community of a character YOU don't main as, trash talk the experts of said character and tell them their wrong about their opinions. I don't do that, you guys probably don't either, and why would we? I don't benefit going to say the pit boards and tell them I know better than they do. Because that would be ludicrous.
Lancer can have his opinion, that's fine, but we shouldn't indulge this impulse of his, because we know our main better than anyone, no one can take our knowledge away from us.

Note the person I "started the argument" with doesn't even care about the conversation... You're all much too eager to jump down anybody's throat about how you guys are the victims of poor balancing and Sakubais. There's a reason why people make fun of the Samus mains and not the ZSS mains, and it's not because of how good the characters are...

The idea that Sakubais is a thing is ludicrous, and ordering me to go tabulate some ammo for the argument is even moreso. I was participating in the conversation just fine before somebody else decided to start something.

 

[Gypsy_Panic]

Don't think they can be...
.

To make sure i wasn't crazy i tried b-reversing everyone's charge shot. They were all b-reversible. I'll just chalk it up to it's the same reason why Samus can't charge her special in the air while everyone else can. It's a Sakurai thing.

 

[LancerStaff]

To make sure i wasn't crazy i tried b-reversing everyone's charge shot. They were all b-reversible. I'll just chalk it up to it's the same reason why Samus can't charge her special in the air while everyone else can. It's a Sakurai thing.

Fully charged? Although I'm having my doubts now...

Like I said, they don't just do things like that for no reason. Samus was made with the limitation in mind, and if she had the ability she'd probably need to take more time to charge as a result.

 

[JAZZ_]

REMOVED BY AUTHOR

 

[MOI-ARI]

JAZZ_ Its the internet. Just ignore him? Same goes for everyone else who is 'bothered' by his viewpoints. For the sake of the thread's civility...

 

[LancerStaff]

LancerStaff why quote me? Your reply had nothing to do with what I said. From what ive seen, your the only consistent troll to the Samus boards. Everyone else will have legitimate conversations after there initial stabs towards the Samus community. You seem to persist. Most will tend to agree with our concerns, all but a few like you. What benifit do you have in doing this? Imagine how much could be done in the time you waste being a dipstick in our corner of this site? I can think of few,

• Watch a movie
• Read a book
• Hang with friends
• Practice your Pit
• Anything

We benefit from talking about the issues with our main because its therapeutic to talk to those who understand your frustrations. So these discussions DONT waste our time at all, we have to blow off steam somewhere so that we can get back to the difficult task at perfecting a low tier. Everyone has things they need to get off their chest about who they main, whether it be a bad MU, a Nerf, a weird tweek in design.

Now, don't be difficult. If you didn't want to be a part of the conversation or perpetuate it, don't butt in. Simple, no? I don't understand why people don't just block me if it's really so upsetting to see my opinions...

 

[JAZZ_]

JAZZ_ Its the internet. Just ignore him? Same goes for everyone else who is 'bothered' by his viewpoints. For the sake of the thread's civility...

Your right, its hard to see the point of any of this. In fact ill just back out of this one

 

[zblaqk]

Now, don't be difficult. If you didn't want to be a part of the conversation or perpetuate it, don't butt in. Simple, no? I don't understand why people don't just block me if it's really so upsetting to see my opinions...

Tbh, I like hearing other opinions and thoughts on the character even if they aren't a "main". I think its completely fine and no; as much as the lack of buffs is annoying, alot of other characters are just as deserving as us. Sakurai is not the only guy making this game, and he surely doesn't sit in a room alone wondering "hmm how can I piss off a fan base?" Guys its fine, and I condone other players to come in time to time and inquire about things or provide a comment in relation to Samus. Frankly, if anything it helps foster a sense of community and if they say something that may be misconstrued as falacy or not, be willing to provide a constructive argument, not a poke as someones attitude on a forum.

 

[strike42]

All I want is for missile canceling to come back or have their endlag reduced so their a useful zoning tool.

 

[JAZZ_]

All I want is for missile canceling to come back or have their endlag reduced so their a useful zoning tool.

I was thinking about supermissile tonight actually, what if the knockback angle was changed from a diagonal to a more horizontal launch.

 

[zblaqk]

I was thinking about supermissile tonight actually, what if the knockback angle was changed from a diagonal to a more horizontal launch.

That would be really nice kills off stage with a super missile!!!

 

[Afro Smash]

B reversing isn't minor, it would actually be a great mix up to catch people off guard and most importantly for Samus of all people would create another landing tool. Every other Chargable move is B Reversible, and if it's B Reversible during charge it is at full charge too.

Samus' CS is the biggest, fastest and joint strongest, so it's understandable they would nerf it in some ways, however removal of Aerial Charging would've been enough imo since that creates innumerable more opportunities to get it, and Samus would benefit most from B Reversing since she can't land.

 

[Xygonn]

That would be really nice kills off stage with a super missile!!!

I don't know if I saved it. But I got my first on stage supermissile kill the other day. I was at like 135, they were at 186.

 

[LancerStaff]

B reversing isn't minor, it would actually be a great mix up to catch people off guard and most importantly for Samus of all people would create another landing tool. Every other Chargable move is B Reversible, and if it's B Reversible during charge it is at full charge too.

Samus' CS is the biggest, fastest and joint strongest, so it's understandable they would nerf it in some ways, however removal of Aerial Charging would've been enough imo since that creates innumerable more opportunities to get it, and Samus would benefit most from B Reversing since she can't land.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not sure how a B reverse would help more then a turnaround B when trying to land using CS. If anything a turnaround B would be better in this situation because it doesn't screw with momentum.