ICs vs Falco, Fox

[T-Rex]

I recently attended a tournament, First match was against a friend of mines Falco, and he Pillared the **** out of me and there was near nothing I could do, now I know once the ICs get some momentum (which I did for 2 stocks) Falco will get knocked too far to recover.
What I am wondering is, when playing a Fox or Falco, especially a Falco since the shine usually seperates Nana and Popo, and Pillaring destroys my shields, and if I try a shield grab I get not only seperated from Nana but like an extra 50+%, and death. How am I to approach an IC vs Falco or IC vs Fox, I tried playing defensivly but that just ended in near shield breaks. I tried quite a few things, but to no avail and ended up losing the match.
So, any hints/tips to taking on a Falco, anything I should especially be doing? Defensive play or extremly aggressive?

Thanks,
T-Rex

 

[N1c2k3]

More defensive, since the majority of Falco's are heavily O. Falco is easier to fight IMO, but I'm pretty sure that would vary heavily person to person. Besides shl'ing, which is eternally a *****, you usually have more openings to grab and such against him, blocking dairs 'n the like. Also his recovery and their easy ability to get one off the edge and edgegaurd makes it easier. In my experiences I've realized that against Fox you have to be able to predict him more because of his ability to be all over the place so quickly. He's just as easy to destroy/get off the ledge as Flako is once you get'm up in the air or what have you...

 

[Wobbles]

Dash dancing to grab is a great way to land painful combos on Fox and Falco. Wait for the d-air, dash away, and grab them in the landing lag. Let Nana come back, then do the vicious chaingrab, combo, or infinite of your choice.

If they start playing platform games to avoid getting grabbed, here are a few things to keep in mind.

1) Back-air > you. If they're facing away, stay back or get in front of them quickly. It has a lot of reach and is really difficult to punish unless they flub it against your shield.

2) Your u-tilt > d-air. This applies both to Fox and Falco. Get beneath them, and - timed correctly, of course - you will outprioritize everything.

Learn to shield grab very well. With enough practice, you can tell when the Fox or Falco messed up their fast fall, and you can land a grab. There are very few Foxes and Falcos in this country who can consistently and truly beat the shieldgrab.

But when you come against somebody who does, don't fight them when they're up in your face. You want to use your light shield to get pushed back, giving you breathing room, or you want to roll away. If you roll, you can set up a desync and possibly net the Fox or Falco in a blizzard, or you can have Nana throw an iceblock at them to occupy them. Force them to do something that isn't directly related to attacking you.

If it's a Falco, practice powershielding his lasers. Believe me, it's very, very doable as long as you focus. And you don't need to powershield 100% of the time either. Do it enough to make the Falco wary of using his lasers up close. This gives you a huge advantage as he approaches. He won't want to get stunned when he's coming in for his dial-a-combos, so he'll start trying to play it safe. Wavedash in with your shield up to confuse his spacing, and if he tries to get around you to get his distance advantage back, hit him with an up-air or jab and pummel him.

Falco can also have a bit of trouble with ice-blocks, because they control where he can and can't laser. Even if the ice-blocks aren't hitting, if they keep him from lasering your face off, then keep doing it. Ice-blocks have a lot of lag though, so don't use them as he's getting close (unless you plan to de-sync Nana and use her as bait).

Against Fox, he's going to shine you. A lot. He also wants very badly to gimp Nana, so if he gets her off the stage, he will try to shine spike her after her double jump. But you can make him afraid to do this by getting close enough to scare him. Threaten to b-air him out of his double jump, or grab him as he lands. If he's just sitting on the ground, waiting for you, then camp right outside his attack range. Wait for him to make some motion, then punish it. If he tries to smash, land a grab. If he goes for Nana or starts dash dancing, pressure him with a jumping blizzard. Once Nana reaches the ledge, she will probably try and ledge-attack him. If he shields, grab him. If he jumps, get beneath him with u-air and u-tilt.

Okay, the post was really messy, but I tried.

 

[AzN_Lep]

Hooray for Fast Fallers, Ok so about 90% when Falco l'cancels a d-air he's going to shine. After which he has only 3 consitant options. He can JC his shine, wavedash outta shine, or stand there like an idiot. Sounds to me like your Falco friend is taking the first option. Once the Falco jumps he's more than likely going to keep pressure on you.

Here's where u-tilt and u-airs are your friend. Your u-tilts/u-airs will outprioritze him consistantly. This will lead to a grab or smash with u-tilt, and a b-air or another u-air with the u-air.

If the Falco decides wavedash outta shine just d-smash before his second shine. Lastly if he stands there, just grab him. The occasional problem is when you get a tricky Falco that JC a grab out of his shine and d-throws, that can get ugly. More than likely however the Falco will just try and pillar until he knocks you around. Just be patient and watch what he does, then act accordingly.

As far as approaches go, if you manage to power shield even one of his lasers it'll set him off enough time for you to either wavedash in or send an iceblock. If you can't powershield, just shoot an iceblock. That'll force him to either jump, block, or take the hit. Afterwards you can move in and (insert combo here).

On to Fox, as you know grab combos really mess Fox up, but he's slippery and hard to grab. The best way to go about this is spacing with wavedashes. Fox has the same options as Falco after his shine. Your best bet is the wavedash out of his n-air or d-air then jab, u-tilt, or grab AFTER the shine.

The worst thing that you can do is try to shield grab over and over again. Give yourself some space, then punish his actions. If he jumps you can usually catch him with a dash attack before he gets to high, if not then follow with u-airs. Alot of the time you can hit Fox with a jab as he's jump canceling his shine or wavedashing towards you. This sets up perfecctly for a grab then (insert **** here).

Umm... that covers most of the l cancel shine game. This is the part that gets most IC players, if you need help somewhere else in the match up just ask.

 

[T-Rex]

Wow, thanks for the replys guys, I really appreciate it. I have begun using a bit of this, after reading the replys I realized that my Ice blocks and blizzards are really scarce, but it seems they are excellent to stop Falcos stupid SH Laser approach, which was the big problem I had. I also never thought of using the U-tilt, It's priority is rediculous which is what I need to stop Falco's Dair assault. As for Fox, I just seem to still have trouble keeping Nana next to me, Shines seperate Popo and Nana, and Fox always punishes that.

Now aside from Falco and Fox, I have been playing a few new people, who play Samus and Marth, the Marth although is awful, can consistantly beat me with simply the C-stick, I do every approach but the C-stick stops me in my tracks. I feel my ICs are very good, as I can Chaingrab just about every way, punish 75% of my grabs with a 75+% Infinite before I mess up, combos, and the only thing I need is better edgeguarding.Now I know Marth is ICs counter, Losing to this Marth is just embarasssing because he is just Left or Right C-stick.
Now for the Samus, the Samus I have played against, uses projectiles like they are going out of style, and since Nana thinks they are delicious candies, she is usally dead at rediculously low percentages, and leaves me single climbered, I basically have to sell my soul to the Devil to win the stock single Climberd against someone like a Samus or Marth.

Thanks,
T-Rex

 

[Wobbles]

Marth's f-smash has a few simple answers: wavedash out of shield, spot dodge, or roll. If your opponent is a c-stick spammer, then all you have to do is wavedash into your shield, then wavedash out of it and grab. Punish, and repeat. Marth is good against IC's because of his ridiculous range on his lower lag moves, NOT his forward smash.

Samus is trickier. Use platforms and iceblocks to stop the Samus from missiling while you make it in close. Fighting her is about spacing your movements just right so that you can punish even her least laggy attacks. If you're being assaulted by missiles from across the stage, and Nana isn't shielding with you, use your light shield. It makes the missiles explode farther away, so that gives Nana time to get with the program and resync.

Those are just a few things I've noticed....

 

[T-Rex]

Thanks for the Reply,
It seems to me when I am fighting a Marth the WD to Shield, to take the Fsmash, and WD in, he gets off a second smash before I get the grab off. Once I do get the grab off I usually gain some momentum and win the stock, it's just the appoarch to get the Marth thrown off his game, I usually use WD mindgames such as WD in the out, let him smash and then WD in and go from there into either a chain grab, infinite if he is 40-50%, or Blizzard D-throw U-smash kill. The problem is I just have a hard time gaining that momentum against a Marth, and a Samus.

 

[AzN_Lep]

Mix it up against Marth. Sounds to me that every time you try and wavedash in he just f-smashes you right? So wavedash in and spot dodge right in fron of his face. This also desynchs Nana, so its sort of a two in one deal. From here you can fire an ice block or blizzard. If you really wanna be creative, spot dodge literally reight in front of him. Then hold x/y to jump with just Nana and c-stick down. Popo will hit with a d-smash and Nana will hold him in place with the d-air, after which sets up perfectly for a grab.

Eventually he will start to catch on that you're WDing in and dodging, at this point WD in and jab him, or send a Nanapult, just keep him guessing. At the very worst all that happens to you is you'll end up WD in with your shield up and absorb a hit, maybe get hit by and f-smash if your really sloppy. But if you get in on him he's in a world of pain.

Another bit of advice, I've noticed that alot of IC players tend to tech towards their opponents in hope to mess up their tech chases. Don't do this against Marth. Marth is all about spacing so their just waiting gor you to make a move. Teching towards them will just get you another f-smash. Like I said, just mix it up and keep him guessing. He'll mess up more times then he'll get it right.

 

[DynamicDuo]

help me beat a ganon!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[T-Rex]

My friend plays a Ganon, and usually when it comes down to it, Ganon has very very laggy moves, so if he misses you, or even misses an L-cancel I usually WD in and either chaingrab him or infinite him. Also watch his Dair, it kills you if you are on the ground around 100%.

Another thing about Ganon is his recovery. I usually do my best to Bair Ganon and get him off the stage, and from there he is usually relativly easy to keep off the level.

Another note is if Nana has been taking alot of damage and one of Ganon's Fairs, or Bairs knocks Nana well off the level do your best to save her, but do not get yourself killed trying to save her. Ganon vs Single Climber, at least for me isn't one of the more tuff Single Cimber battles.

 

[technomancer]

T-Rex, it's more accurate to say about 80% on that D-smash.

Gannon doesn't respond well to pressure, so any time you can pull out desynched ice blocks, go for it, to get him to shield or dodge around like an idiot.

Good Ganons are all about getting that crucial F-air spot; it's the spot where they'll hit you with the tip of the F-air if they SHFFL it straight at you. Once they have that spot, it's going to feel like there isn't alot you can do to advance; even ice blocks, Nanapults, etc. you'll feel like they're leaving you open. If you retreat, he can simply follow you and re-achieve the spot, but closer to the edge. It's a sticky situation, but the first step is knowing about it; most people don't, they just feel weird when they're standing in it and try to do something stupid. Essenitally when he gets the spot, just turn around and get ready to B-air, you should be able to beat his F-air to the punch, and you can pretty much see everything else coming because he has to move first.

You can also scooch forward into his personal space, and be ready to spotdodge. Use your jab or f-tilt to counter dash attacks, and watch out for his >B and vB, both of which you should be able to net a grab from. Generally, however, you'll meet either an F-tilt, or a retreating F-air, which you should shield, ice-block, and apply pressure from there.

Anyway, don't retreat. The climbers don't have a sexy dashdance, and Ganon can outprioritize most of your stuff, and safety his own with F-tilts and jabs, so moving back quickly just gives him an excuse to move forward, and wavedancing will just get you a shielded F-air, and you're right where you started.

Most of this matchup you're capitalizing on mistakes with grabs and racking damage with iceblocks, blizzards, etc.; you really shouldn't take an all-out offensive stance and open yourself up. If you can get him to go on platforms you're golden; get under him quick and use SH U-airs to deal more damage and harass him, and try to mindgame him into coming down in such a way that you can grab him, but watch out if he WDs off the side, that's F-air city as well.

 

[DynamicDuo]

when i do blizzard it leaves a gap of my top zone being unprotected and he stomps me or fair's me and the blizzard didn't even hit him at all how do i stop this.

 

[Wobbles]

Dynamic Duo - space it correctly. It's that simple. If he's hitting you by going above you, then you're too close. Ganon won't have enough horizontal speed to take you by surprise by leaping over the blizzard zone. And you could avoid it even further with a jumping blizzard.

Also remember that Ganon has a long jump time, and then a long windup on the f-air. If you stay just out of f-air range and you know he's going to advance with his jump, you can wavedash right as he jumps. His d-air also has too much wind-up time for you not to react to and interrupt. If you get right beneath him, he won't have many options.

Also remember that since Ganon doesn't have horizontal speed or crazy air movement control, if he jumps, he only has a few options. The big question is whether he's going to fall, then double jump and take advantage of your movement, or land with an aerial. He has very good wavelandings however, so if he is dancing around platforms, you have to be incredibly careful. If he's in the middle of a platform and you're beneath him, he can wavedash off either side and land with an aerial and hit you. He could also just fast fall through the platform and start abusing your shield with strong hits. Or fast fall, then double jump and waveland. When he starts playing with platforms, you're in trouble. You need to anticipate his movement and interrupt it with a well-placed aerial, or just get out of range.

Also remember that you have the projectile, but you don't want to use it endlessly. Once he gets into middle range, he can easily leap over it and hit you in iceblock lag. Be aware when he's going to get into those sweet ranges.

Ganon is a character about range and spacing. Having better spacing than your opponent is pretty much the trick to winning.

 

[DynamicDuo]

ok heres my last problem when i see a falco player kill a stock they go to the ledge and do the invinciblity thing and wait till the opponent's flashing stops how can i do that with ic's?

 

[pockyD]

you can't unless you want nana to die

 

[DynamicDuo]

ok thanx everyone.

keep ic's for brawl!

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

Against ganon you have to use your air game. This is one of the few characters where you have the advantage over him in the air due to the speed of your airials. nairs and bairs beat out a ganon who is trying to space fairs on you but you will have to react quick everytime you see him jump and dont jump too soon or you wont reach him. Its all about positioning yourself to where you are jumping at the last possible minute and intercepting him in the air into grabs which lead to your ever feared chain grabs or homo infinites.

 

[Delphiki]

If you have a single Climber, you still have at least one (this is the only that I know of) combo that is very effective against most characters, especially Ganon/Marth.

Grab > D-throw > Nair > F-smash

This is an easy, effective 30-40% which often leaves your often off the stage. You can also D-smash, but because of the opponent's position it gives them more time to escape.



Fox and Falco are hard to approach, but easy to combo. Both of these matches are difficult, though I think Fox is the harder of the two, because he can shine to seperate and gimp you, and he is much harder to grab. Also, he can score kills much more easily than Falco.

Falco's best advantage over the Climbers is his laser. Any way you can neutralize the laser (either by tactics and positioning or by counterpicking) is a very valuable asset. Powershielding is a very good option, one which I think I will practice much more now that others have brought it to my attention. Lightshielding is also extremely useful.

If a space animal is pillaring, DO NOT GRAB AFTER THE DAIR. I have seen otherwise good players get demolished by not knowing this common mistake. Your best options are to punish them after the shine, either by Uairs or Utilits, or Usmash out of shield. Usmashing from shielding allows you to set up a combo very quickly, and moreover it is one that can easiily be used to remove a stock.


Finally, Trail your sig scares me.

 

[Mr. Derp]

A good fox is going to gimp your nana any way, so use her as a distraction, dash dance and let her get seperated, it really doesnt take her long to get abck to you, despite what people think. Infinite/reverse dair chain if you can. DI UP AIR AND USMASH OR ITS OVER! (caps lock) if the opponent is pillaring (whether fox or falco, wavedash out of shield immediately after the shine and the dair shouldnt hit you, but if you dont feel liek you have the reflexes, just roll. if a falco is spamming laser use sh ice blcoks out of shield it will start trading hits and the falco will give up for the time being.

 

[LuCKy]

i need help against jiggs

 

[DynamicDuo]

wooooooww i never thought of that mr.derp! sh ice blocks out of your shield. mwhaaaahahahahahaha (oh nothing i just that of a killer combo with that)i have to strat practicing that.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

wooooooww i never thought of that mr.derp! sh ice blocks out of your shield. mwhaaaahahahahahaha (oh nothing i just that of a killer combo with that)i have to strat practicing that.

...what you hatin for... you suck...

 

[DynamicDuo]

...what you hatin for... you suck...

i don't know what ur talking about.

 

[AzN_Lep]

LuCKy - against Jiggs, as dumb as this sounds: Spam smashes. During a WoP you can WD outta shield and d-smash just as she lands. The most ******** mistake most people make is trying to shield grab jiggs, and this is espcially appealing when you're ICs. Don't do this, you'll just get kicked in the face.

If you do manage to grab, blizard > d-throw > u-smash. You'll be able to land the u-smash on most jiggs, occasionally you'll get the good one that'll DI it. When just is above you, don't be afraid go in with u-airs. U-airs are a really good follow up for d-throws. Other than u-air, you should probably avoid using too many aerials, jiggs ***** in the air. Back to the spamming smashes, after pounds you can land a f-smash or u-smash, just make sure you punish her aerials.

If jiggs goes for a rest and misses, you're best bets are a fully charged f-smash or a fully charged reversed u-smash (normal u-smash will miss) This is really a match where you gotta use f-smash though, it'll stop jiggs in her tracks and punish her for some of her laggy moves. Avoid desynching too much because jiggs will **** your Nana, even go for rests at lower percentages, not to say you should be void of desynching, just use it sparingly.

 

[Mr. Derp]

I think hochi misinterperetd what u said and thinks u were being sarcstic like you didnt need my advice. That or he was talking to someone else and quoted you by accident.

 

[DynamicDuo]

oh i see, but i was serious when i said i never thought of that.