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Ice climbers........ anyone has a tip against a good one?
- Thread starter nhat
- Start date
Yeah first I was being aggressive, than after he caught on, I tried different strategies as being a bit more defensive and letting him roll or move than I do d-smash. That worked ok in conjunction with SH and rolls but in the end, he always gets 2 lives ahead of me out of 4.
Spacing is a bit difficult because every attack needs to be spaced cause of shiek's short reach.
When the chance comes to keep them apart I do that and if I had a chance to knock nana out, I do.
Spacing is a bit difficult because every attack needs to be spaced cause of shiek's short reach.
When the chance comes to keep them apart I do that and if I had a chance to knock nana out, I do.
stealthsushi
Smash Apprentice
I'd go with needles and trying to get them into the air. Your chances are better in the air. D-Smash a lot 
I'd go with using more N-Airs and B-Airs as the soft hit might save you from a throw-follow up.
Otherwise go Zelda. She has a better chance in the matchup given her multi-hitting smashes, fast fast D-Smash, and Din's Fire.
I'd go with using more N-Airs and B-Airs as the soft hit might save you from a throw-follow up.Otherwise go Zelda. She has a better chance in the matchup given her multi-hitting smashes, fast fast D-Smash, and Din's Fire.
Hmm needles are kind of a bad idea. The IC player that I play shoots ice if I'm away and the lag on landing gives him too much time to counter. Next time I play, I'll try a more air game.
I'll also try to b-air even more, f-air sucks so much, lol.
Yeah zelda is a beast. I'm happy with Zelda but....
I'm going to try to stay as a pure shiek player as possible though. =)
I'll also try to b-air even more, f-air sucks so much, lol.
Yeah zelda is a beast. I'm happy with Zelda but....
I'm going to try to stay as a pure shiek player as possible though. =)
Tristan_win
Not dead.
Personally I think using the chain is great against the Ice climbers as they can only get you by jumping forward and using the down B.
You just bait them or a bit into charging you and then pull the chain out and deal a good 30%. The best part is that if you see them jump odd are it wont combo into a grab so the little damage you give you isn't a big deal.
When dealing with the ice climbers I've found it best to have the mindset that damage isn't important as you are alive. So taking a few blizzards or downsmashs is a small price to pay compared to the chain grab. The ice climbers have horrible approaches (against sheik) and their defensive game isn't the best.
So for the whole match you should play keep away, be very jumpy and try to be on a different level as the ice climbers at all times.
When counter picking try to pick levels that are very nontraditional like Rainbow cruise and Nofair
You just bait them or a bit into charging you and then pull the chain out and deal a good 30%. The best part is that if you see them jump odd are it wont combo into a grab so the little damage you give you isn't a big deal.
When dealing with the ice climbers I've found it best to have the mindset that damage isn't important as you are alive. So taking a few blizzards or downsmashs is a small price to pay compared to the chain grab. The ice climbers have horrible approaches (against sheik) and their defensive game isn't the best.
So for the whole match you should play keep away, be very jumpy and try to be on a different level as the ice climbers at all times.
When counter picking try to pick levels that are very nontraditional like Rainbow cruise and Nofair
ADHD
Smash Hero
Yeah, you'd be a moron for not counterpicking them with another character, unless you're that dedicated. It's not ****ing worth it.
Tristan_win
Not dead.
>.>'
Meta knights give me more trouble then Ice climbers
Meta knights give me more trouble then Ice climbers
popsofctown
Smash Champion
Meta Knight probably is harder, but against Meta Knight you can't double your odds of winning by tapping b and pushing the thumbstick down....
For real, it's a really really bad matchup for Sheik. It's your own call if you want to stay that loyal, and go that far against the odds, but i would say you don't even have to play a single practice match using Zelda to justify switching over for this matchup.
For real, it's a really really bad matchup for Sheik. It's your own call if you want to stay that loyal, and go that far against the odds, but i would say you don't even have to play a single practice match using Zelda to justify switching over for this matchup.
ADHD
Smash Hero
What's wrong with you!
slickmasterizzy
Smash Apprentice
knock em apart.
I'm very comfortable switching between sheik/zelda. I usually just knock my opponents to around 90% dmg then switch to shiek and knock them out unless they are heavier like snake/bowser, etc. When I'm zelda, the match is a lot more even when I fight against IC so that's no problem.
The problem is, what is the point of being shiek if I can't knock IC dmg high enough to justify switching over the zelda? I do fine starting out being zelda instead of starting with shiek in a match with IC.
So in the end I'm trying to figure out a practical way to rack up dmg with shiek without losing lives in the process. Which is happening.
Yeah the match-up is horrible and in the end, this might be pointless to start out with shiek instead of zelda in this case.
Once all available solutions and tactics are used up then I'll just simply start as Zelda..... which isn't many left, lol.
Thanks for reminding me about the chain. I did some experiments with the chain against IC. When IC shoot their ice towards me, I do a SH and shoot my chain.
Not only did my chain knocked the 2 blocks of ice back at them but the tip hit them which is a great couter move. I can only try this against level 9 comps at the moment so I will have to try this against a human player.
As for taking some hits to reach them, I do that when I can. I'm aggressive to do that but know when and where to do it too.
IC vs shiek video:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=85cWK06XBm8
Yeah that is how the kid play except a little more aggressive with the grabs and the way I play is more mind game so I can take advantage of any mistakes he made. Usually a match out of 4 lives, I usually can only take 2 lives from IC the most.
The other thing I noticed, and I'm sure almost everyone knows, are that attacks that does double hit like f-smash when the opponent are at the edge of a stage. It will always hit an opponent with the second hit if the opponent tries blocking. So I try to take advantage of that when that situation comes.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=85cWK06XBm8
Yeah that is how the kid play except a little more aggressive with the grabs and the way I play is more mind game so I can take advantage of any mistakes he made. Usually a match out of 4 lives, I usually can only take 2 lives from IC the most.
The other thing I noticed, and I'm sure almost everyone knows, are that attacks that does double hit like f-smash when the opponent are at the edge of a stage. It will always hit an opponent with the second hit if the opponent tries blocking. So I try to take advantage of that when that situation comes.
TigerWoods
Smash Champion
OUCH!^ i feel the pain, but im an IC secondary XD
Anyway you should use short hopped aerials more! I know you may think fair is bad but it has two hits!
oh and there were some instances that you could capitalize on the fact nana was in front of you without popoXD... anyway zelda is much better here... just saying though... the Ic boards rate the match 98-2
Anyway you should use short hopped aerials more! I know you may think fair is bad but it has two hits!
oh and there were some instances that you could capitalize on the fact nana was in front of you without popoXD... anyway zelda is much better here... just saying though... the Ic boards rate the match 98-2
Tristan_win
Not dead.
Well no offense to that Sheik but he did a extremely poor job fighting that Ice climber.
1. He used rolling offensively, NEVER use the roll offensively
2. He was aggressive, you should never be that aggressive to the ice climber. Needle spam them and if they start using their neutral B then either pull out the whip or head for higher ground.
3. The fsmash sucks and the fact you can get grab out of it makes it utterly worthless against the Ice climber since the risk of getting grabbed does not outweigh the pity amount of damage it does. Don't fsmash the ice climbers.
4. He kept vanishing toward the Ice climbers on upon recovery and that's never a good idea since the ice climbers are mainly a defensive ground character so aerial vanishes going inward wont mindgame them...usually.
Over all I see that video as a perfect example of what not to do against the ice climbers.
On a side note that sheik and ice climber have most likely gotten much better since then (upload happened on june 3) so they shouldn't feel angry when I say that both of them weren't not playing on a very high level and that this match doesn't do the match up justice.
1. He used rolling offensively, NEVER use the roll offensively
2. He was aggressive, you should never be that aggressive to the ice climber. Needle spam them and if they start using their neutral B then either pull out the whip or head for higher ground.
3. The fsmash sucks and the fact you can get grab out of it makes it utterly worthless against the Ice climber since the risk of getting grabbed does not outweigh the pity amount of damage it does. Don't fsmash the ice climbers.
4. He kept vanishing toward the Ice climbers on upon recovery and that's never a good idea since the ice climbers are mainly a defensive ground character so aerial vanishes going inward wont mindgame them...usually.
Over all I see that video as a perfect example of what not to do against the ice climbers.
On a side note that sheik and ice climber have most likely gotten much better since then (upload happened on june 3) so they shouldn't feel angry when I say that both of them weren't not playing on a very high level and that this match doesn't do the match up justice.
Tristan_win
Not dead.
:3
You did a great job on the last stock Ankoku.
You did a great job on the last stock Ankoku.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
Okay, I'm not tired anymore, it's time to post my thoughts.
Is this Sheik's worst matchup? Sure.
Is counter picking the better option? Yeah, probably.
But still, I really don't think this matchup is as hard as everyone's making it out to be.
IMO, in Ankoku and Omniswell's first match, they both played the match horribly. Sheik got grabbed way to many times. If that was a real IC like Hylian or Millar, it would've been way more costly to be grabbed, because Sheik risks death at every grab. Swell, however, was pretty terrible at the cg's, and only knew the most basic ones. There are other ones that are even easier to pull off, and other grab combos that are far more reliable. Swell could've just grabbed and c-sticked and it would've done more damage than some of the cg attempts he did.
However, I did watch more of the matches between them, up to match 5. Ankoku started playing the matchup way better, while Swell began to use better spacing with desynched blizzards. However, I could tell that Ankoku was simply the superior player, and that's the reason why he won more of the matches.
Okay, now guys, here is the trick. You absolutely NEED Ice Climber knowledge in order to win this matchup. In fact, knowing the opponent's character with great depth is the key to any matchup. Fortunately, IC's happens to be one of my secondaries, so I know all their strengths and weaknesses. Sheik doesn't have the BEST ways to exploit them, but she still can. There's a nice quote I got from watching the finals of a Starcraft tournament
...
"he found the weakness and hit it with surgical precision each time"
That's what it takes. So here are some of IC's weaknesses, and general strategy to beat them.
1. IC's are weak to unpunishable approaches. MK has a ton of these, so does GW, Snake, Peach, whatever. IC's often lose to priority and speed, looking for a grab opening. They don't have the speed to sneak the grabs in. They lost the wavedashing from melee, SO AS MUCH AS PEOPLE CLAIM THE OPPOSITE, "DON'T GET GRABBED" IS ACTUALLY VERY POSSIBLE AGAINST THE IC'S. IN FACT, FOR SOME CHARACTERS, IT IS EASY.
Hm... however, for Sheik, it is not easy. She does have some approaches... bair to needles, nair/fair to jabs....
The real trick, however, is to not approach. If you don't approach the IC's, it's much less likely for you to be grabbed. Space with bairs, with platforms, and needles. Stay away from FD (needle camp if you really get that stage.) Even if you get smashville, camp the platform. The best thing they can do is uair you from underneath. Needle/bair camping is the way to beat many characters, including Peach and Luigi. This is because they share the same properties:
- great close range ability
- fast aerials that break out of 'combo' attempts, usually nair (don't be so hasty with 'combos,' my fellow sheik players
- many defensive options against close range sheik
So that's tip #1: STAY AWAY.
2. Watch the blizzards. If IC's have TWO spacing strengths, it is in shield-cancelling the dash, and using well-spaced blizzards. So you know to stay away from the shield, but you still have to space at even more of a distance because of the blizzard. But we have something to deal with that easily... once again, needles are key. Needles go through blizzards and nullify ice blocks. If IC tries to play too definsively (which like I said, that's all they can do) then they will find themselves taking a lot of damage from fully charged needles.
Watch for desynched short hop blizzards. This can be a fearsome approach haha, but don't get caught up in the way it looks. If you have platforms, use them and shoot needles from an angle. If they are still far away and trying to blizzard approach, stay on the ground and use single/charged needles to disrupt the desynch.
3. Beat IC's "approaches."
In essence, they pretty much have two reliable approaches: running up and shielding, or running up and using blizzards. Don't think your needles will keep them away forever... you still have to charge them. If the run up and shield, a good option is to spam jabs. Tilts will get you shield grabbed, and it is not reliabe to tiltlock them since the IC's sometimes seemingly DI in different directions (though I don't know if that's true.) Fsmashes and usmashes will get you DEFINITELY shield grabbed. Dsmashes are good for clearing them out, but if they're smart and hold the shield, they can still try to shield grab you, or at least throw in a blizzard if their shields are knocked too far.
Be weary of those IC players
who use manly approaches like their faster-than-expected dash attack. Also, watch IC's who simply just run up and grab. There is no reason to shield any of their approaches unless they are using dash attack.
4. In a pinch? Needles are uncharged, there's no platform above you to jump on, and IC's are spamming grabs to try to cg you to death? To be REALLY honest... there's not much you can do in this situation. Do your best to play keep away. If you can sneak in jabs, bairs, nairs, and dsmashes when they are not shielding, use this and run away. If you knock Popo away and Nana's still there, proceed to tilt lock her because I don't think she has any DI. Hit her with a nair as Popo comes back to save her, then fight
Popo.
Hm... a couple more tips.
5. Don't ever risk grabs, ever. Please do not approach. Even against solo Popo, he can cg you off the edge and fsmash if you are at low percents. DO NOT RISK EVEN A SINGLE GRAB. If you can't run, that's where you need to let your aggression take over and jab/knock them away. If you get grabbed, hope they mess up and get back to your strategy. (Not many IC players can reliably grab combo to death, so it's very likely you'll still be alive if they grab you below 70%. Just know that IC players do have their moments of brilliance and can do a death combo from any percent.) Don't risk it, whether there's two of them, one of them, whatever.
6. Edge guard effectively. Use needles, jump out to knock them away from each other. Not much point in edge hogging because Belay is reliable and it hits you very hard if you aren't invincible. This is the only tether recovery that still recovers even if they are edge hogged.
Oh, and one last tip:
7.
Final word:
Idiots, don't get shield grabbed by IC's because people with the triforce of wisdom don't jump into the ****.
Is this Sheik's worst matchup? Sure.
Is counter picking the better option? Yeah, probably.
But still, I really don't think this matchup is as hard as everyone's making it out to be.
IMO, in Ankoku and Omniswell's first match, they both played the match horribly. Sheik got grabbed way to many times. If that was a real IC like Hylian or Millar, it would've been way more costly to be grabbed, because Sheik risks death at every grab. Swell, however, was pretty terrible at the cg's, and only knew the most basic ones. There are other ones that are even easier to pull off, and other grab combos that are far more reliable. Swell could've just grabbed and c-sticked and it would've done more damage than some of the cg attempts he did.
However, I did watch more of the matches between them, up to match 5. Ankoku started playing the matchup way better, while Swell began to use better spacing with desynched blizzards. However, I could tell that Ankoku was simply the superior player, and that's the reason why he won more of the matches.
Okay, now guys, here is the trick. You absolutely NEED Ice Climber knowledge in order to win this matchup. In fact, knowing the opponent's character with great depth is the key to any matchup. Fortunately, IC's happens to be one of my secondaries, so I know all their strengths and weaknesses. Sheik doesn't have the BEST ways to exploit them, but she still can. There's a nice quote I got from watching the finals of a Starcraft tournament
Jaedong 3-0ing Flash
"he found the weakness and hit it with surgical precision each time"
That's what it takes. So here are some of IC's weaknesses, and general strategy to beat them.
1. IC's are weak to unpunishable approaches. MK has a ton of these, so does GW, Snake, Peach, whatever. IC's often lose to priority and speed, looking for a grab opening. They don't have the speed to sneak the grabs in. They lost the wavedashing from melee, SO AS MUCH AS PEOPLE CLAIM THE OPPOSITE, "DON'T GET GRABBED" IS ACTUALLY VERY POSSIBLE AGAINST THE IC'S. IN FACT, FOR SOME CHARACTERS, IT IS EASY.
Hm... however, for Sheik, it is not easy. She does have some approaches... bair to needles, nair/fair to jabs....
The real trick, however, is to not approach. If you don't approach the IC's, it's much less likely for you to be grabbed. Space with bairs, with platforms, and needles. Stay away from FD (needle camp if you really get that stage.) Even if you get smashville, camp the platform. The best thing they can do is uair you from underneath. Needle/bair camping is the way to beat many characters, including Peach and Luigi. This is because they share the same properties:
- great close range ability
- fast aerials that break out of 'combo' attempts, usually nair (don't be so hasty with 'combos,' my fellow sheik players
- many defensive options against close range sheik
So that's tip #1: STAY AWAY.
2. Watch the blizzards. If IC's have TWO spacing strengths, it is in shield-cancelling the dash, and using well-spaced blizzards. So you know to stay away from the shield, but you still have to space at even more of a distance because of the blizzard. But we have something to deal with that easily... once again, needles are key. Needles go through blizzards and nullify ice blocks. If IC tries to play too definsively (which like I said, that's all they can do) then they will find themselves taking a lot of damage from fully charged needles.
Watch for desynched short hop blizzards. This can be a fearsome approach haha, but don't get caught up in the way it looks. If you have platforms, use them and shoot needles from an angle. If they are still far away and trying to blizzard approach, stay on the ground and use single/charged needles to disrupt the desynch.
3. Beat IC's "approaches."
In essence, they pretty much have two reliable approaches: running up and shielding, or running up and using blizzards. Don't think your needles will keep them away forever... you still have to charge them. If the run up and shield, a good option is to spam jabs. Tilts will get you shield grabbed, and it is not reliabe to tiltlock them since the IC's sometimes seemingly DI in different directions (though I don't know if that's true.) Fsmashes and usmashes will get you DEFINITELY shield grabbed. Dsmashes are good for clearing them out, but if they're smart and hold the shield, they can still try to shield grab you, or at least throw in a blizzard if their shields are knocked too far.
Be weary of those IC players
like me
4. In a pinch? Needles are uncharged, there's no platform above you to jump on, and IC's are spamming grabs to try to cg you to death? To be REALLY honest... there's not much you can do in this situation. Do your best to play keep away. If you can sneak in jabs, bairs, nairs, and dsmashes when they are not shielding, use this and run away. If you knock Popo away and Nana's still there, proceed to tilt lock her because I don't think she has any DI. Hit her with a nair as Popo comes back to save her, then fight
(tilt lock lmao)
Hm... a couple more tips.
5. Don't ever risk grabs, ever. Please do not approach. Even against solo Popo, he can cg you off the edge and fsmash if you are at low percents. DO NOT RISK EVEN A SINGLE GRAB. If you can't run, that's where you need to let your aggression take over and jab/knock them away. If you get grabbed, hope they mess up and get back to your strategy. (Not many IC players can reliably grab combo to death, so it's very likely you'll still be alive if they grab you below 70%. Just know that IC players do have their moments of brilliance and can do a death combo from any percent.) Don't risk it, whether there's two of them, one of them, whatever.
6. Edge guard effectively. Use needles, jump out to knock them away from each other. Not much point in edge hogging because Belay is reliable and it hits you very hard if you aren't invincible. This is the only tether recovery that still recovers even if they are edge hogged.
Oh, and one last tip:
7.
I know some of us like to be real men and fight this uphill battle, but sometimes we should let our feminine side take over, LOL. Just transform into Zelda, because Din's fire ***** IC's, it's very hard for them to dodge. If they mistime an air dodge, sidestep, or roll, you'll probably hit at least one of them. Zelda's camping OBLITERATES the IC's who are a defense-oriented character. Zelda's defense happens to be far superior.
Final word:
Idiots, don't get shield grabbed by IC's because people with the triforce of wisdom don't jump into the ****.