I think we should consider reevaluating competitive Smash back to its roots.

[CompetitiveSSB]

I'm probably the minority here, but there's been a lot that's bugging me since the release of the new Smash game. That is, everyone is formulating the competitive scene based on the current competitive [Melee] scene, which does make logical sense, except that there are much more tools this time around that needs fair testing.
I also feel like trying to "make the game as close/fun as Melee as possible" is a good way to kill all upcoming games of the series. We have to accept that we will never get another game like Melee so comparing/changing the games to be like Melee will only hurt the franchise and possible new competitive aspects.

Stages
First of, stages. The game have only been out for a week in the US and many TOs have already started only using past stages(Battlefield, Yoshi's Island, Final Destination). We should be including stages like Arena Ferox, Prism Tower, and possibly a couple others to all tourneys and widely test them out(a lot of tourneys have been doing this, but it seems fairly split so far). These are the beginning stages, we should be as open as possible, this goes for custom moves as well.

Back in Brawl, we had Frigate Orpheon and even Luigi's Mansion as counterpick. In olden Melee days, Poke Floats and Rainbow Cruise were legit counterpicks as well. While those were drastic examples, Mute City is still a pretty solid stage as counterpick in Melee, but we've slowly cut down 5 stages and Pokemon Stadium.

I've also heard a lot about throwing out all Omega versions of stages altogether because it doesn't work well with the striking process and to me, it's a crazy thought. Instead of working around with the new things we are given, we simply take the lazy way and work things accordingly to old rulings. There are plenty of ways to deal with this issue.
It's also very possible that purely flat stages could be in fact, more balanced that it's ever been. Platform game is very strong in Melee after all and maybe we're all just really, really used to that. With redesigned rolling and mostly ground approach, Omega variants could very well be considered balanced to the overall game.

General Rules
As far as stocks go, right now it's between 2 and 3 stocks. Having played quite a bit of matches in both, 2 stocks definitely doesn't feel like a reassuring victory.

Stage picking. In all Smash games, there have been quite a bit of rules and suggestions in how stages should be picked. Currently, striking is the best option in Melee, but maybe we should look into different options with this game. One possible option is to always start on Battlefield, then counterpick from there. Another option(for 3DS) is to random an Omega stage and counterpick from there. In Brawl, there were suggestions to play Battlefield, then Final Destination followed by Smashville(or vice versa). In 64, while there are 3 neutrals stages to pick from, most people just opt for Dream Land, with some tourneys, that's the only option.

My main point is that we should look into the game as a whole instead of trying to fit current standard rules for past games into this new game. This is in relation to limiting the Omega stages for Melee-style rules.

Equipment and Custom Moves
Equipment. To start off, I don't think equipment is usable(unfortunately) mainly because it's RNG based. However, there's maybe a possibility of using a hack/save that everyone can use that unlocks all potential or best equipment or maybe the Wii U version might have equipment for just effects(no stats), maybe Special Smash?
So I figure it's worth discussing now before we completely forget about the possibilities.

Without testing, I've seen quite a few suggestions and what should/shouldn't be used. Again, this is a brand new game, I think retesting and analyzing EVERYTHING should be done.
I'll pick a very unpopular opinion one. Items. To mostly everyone, this wasn't even worth opening up to. Let's take the equipment that lets you start out with a Home-Run Bat. Do you guys remember when the item/no item arguments back in the day? What was the undebatable reason again? Oh yeah, because random bombs spawn on you.
But what about this equipment? It isn't random at all. In fact, either of you can start with it. But let's be honestly, would you really take a Home-Run Bat as opposed to the equipments that give you: decreased landing lag, faster ground speed, faster air movement, charging a smash in nearly half the time? I personally wouldn't trade any of those effects for an item that can be dropped and used against me. But if someone wanted to choose that instead, why not allow them? If it isn't broken and unbalanced, why not? Maybe with it, even a quarter of one combo like this would be amazing to see in tournaments: youtube. com/watch?v=n3bXY_ev6dk (there's a space since I can't post links yet)

Custom Moves. Nothing really to say here except that we should try to utilize this and evolve the game.

In comparison to other fighting games
Everyone wants the same excitement that Melee has, we know. But again, we have to accept the fact that we'll probably never get another game like Melee. But PLEASE, give SSB4 a chance. Even if it isn't even close to being an aggressive game like Melee, let's compare it to other fighting games.

I've delved a little bit into competitive Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat 9, never did amazing nor did I ever go 2-0 in a double elimination setup. I've closely watched other fighting games and played practically the majority of fighting games to a casual-competitive level. And to be honest, NOTHING is close to Melee as far as excitement goes. And many aren't as aggressive either. Turtling have always been part of Street Fighter and Injustice, for example, was played very defensively.

Everyone always wants something as aggressive as Melee, but let's take a step back a bit and look at other fighters and maybe realize that having a defensive game might not be a bad thing as long as there are redeeming qualities as well. The game is still fresh, and truly, it does seem like a much better fighting game than Brawl. I would say definitely less defensive WITH redeeming qualities. It's still fairly defensive, for now, but there are plenty of change. Whether it's advanced tactics or using equipment, it could become a highly aggressive game. I don't know about you, but I've seen tons of "combos"(mostly fast reads and chases, but carried significant shift to the match) that are much more impressive that the entire first year of Brawl. Comebacks are also possible from my experience as opposed to Brawl, which was practically non-existent.

Summary/tl;dr
A defensive game doesn't necessarily mean it's bad as long other great elements exists(Brawl didn't really offer that) and that we should "reset" the entire competitive Smash game as whole from the ground up, while taking old and new aspects in consideration. That is all.

Thank you.

 

[Hitzel]

I do agree that:

• There are more than 3 good stages (Prism Tower, Arena Ferox, etc)
• When people counter-pick FD they should be able to choose which FD/Omega they want it to be.
• Equipment is unusable in its current form, but I want to see equipment side-tournaments.

As for stocks, I prefer 2-stock overall so far but that's a hot topic. 3 is fine too, just painful in some matchups.

 

[Garquille14]

Other than Arena Ferox and Prism Tower, the only other stages I can think of being close to acceptable are Distant Planet and Rainbow Road.

 

[Piford]

I think for stagse we have
FD
BF
Yoshi's Island
Arena Ferox
Prism Tower
Rainbow Road
Reset Bomb Forrest
Tomodachi Life
Mute City
Brinstar
Corneria
Gaur Plains
3D Land

 

[Utena]

i honestly wouldnt mind if battlefield was the only legal stage lmao
that stage is the best

 

[Sliq]

People like to think that Melee wasn't a defensive game because of all the flashy combos, but they seem to miss all of the top level foxes dash dance camping, waiting for an opponent to attack, and then dashing in up throw up airing.

Jigglypuff was the ultimate defensive character, essentially walling the opponent with bairs until one lands.

Defensive play in Melee was about positioning and reaction, similar to Brawl. The difference was there was a reward in Melee for being offensive, while there was not in Brawl.

Just because shielding wasn't the BEST option doesn't mean there wasn't defensive play in Melee. Not many people bothered with it because the risk the reward for offense was actually high, and most people find defensive play boring. The ideal play was a combination of the two, but some players were so talented they could overwhelm you with offense.

About the stages:

Stages that cause damage and/or KO's are at the very bottom of stages I think should reach competitive play. They are only truly ideal in a situation where players know when or where the danger zones will be. Randomness needs to be mitigated as much as possible. Things with warnings or on a timer are much more ideal, however both players should be required to handle the hazard. That cannon and claw from the Halberd stage was foolish. Plus sharking vastly benefited MK, who was already the best character.

Dynamic stages are acceptable given that certain parts of the stage transitions don't over centralize a center character or strategy. Thing like circle camping on Hyrule Temple is what I had in mind.

I understand the desire to not stick with the current rules just because that's the way it always was, but that ISN'T the way it always was. These rules were forged over YEARS of competitive play. They embody a huge amount of time and effort.

Different stages is what makes Smash a lot more different than other fighting games, so I'd hate to lose variety "just because." However, at some point people have to cut out all the bull**** stages that don't test the skills we want to test in a competitive environment.

 

[RanserSSF4]

I've played Injustice competively and it definitly is defensive,uti enjoyed it regardless of it's flaws. The odd thing about it is that it's competitive scene is still going strong despite not being as fast or good as MK9 (Although I think it will die down once MKX comes out).

In terms of Stocks; I'm starting to agree that two stock is the better ruleset, but that could change in the Wii U version.

 

[Gawain]

I agree with some of what you said, but a lot of it I disagree with. I don't think that items and equipment should be a part of the game. It arbitrarily causes strategies that would otherwise work to stop working, for little benefit in terms of competitive value. As for stages, I agree for the most part. I think stage legality ought to change pretty significantly to be honest.

 

[Prince Lolz]

Items are a no for me.. mostly. I like using nothing but food when playing with friends, as its a kinda fun way to add some strategy and extend the 2 stocks a bit.

Custom moves have to be used. If the community rejects them I will be EXTREMELY dissapointed with this thing we call a community.

Stages should be simple. Perhaps just omega forms? With most stages available as counter picks. The only big problem stages I can see are dreamland, 3d land, golden plains, pictochat 2, dry desert or whatever, and wily castle. Maybe there is more I'm missing but you get the point.

Stocks should be 3. 4 is too much, and 2 is stressful.

 

[S2]

The problem with items is the random spawning. There were item debates on every Smash game really up until this one. It's not just about slicing out all of the exceptionally broken items, but the fact that most players don't want them at tournaments.

Equipment has been discussed in other topics. Right now there seems to be a lot more people leaning towards banning them, with the general sentiment being because their stats are random. It requires players to grind for equipment and then have a 3DS to transfer it to the Wii U just to be able to play in a tournament without the opponent being at an advantage. This is still being debated, but I wouldn't hold my breath on it.

Custom moves are also a big topic right now. I'm for them, as are a lot of other players. They seem reasonable in that most of them give distinct advantages and disadvantages compared to the regular special.

Stages I find interesting, since I still like the mentality of stage picking that Melee had back in '05 or so. The neutral stages should be flat. The counter-picks don't need to be neutral, flat stages. I'm not saying there shouldn't be banned stages, just that more stage variety in counter-picks is fine.

 

[KACHOW!!!]

We should play 2 stock because the game is slow enough that 3 stock would be too arduous and slow. I say this, full well knowing that I don't play any good suicidy characters, and I've lost to the ol' 'one stock lead, then suicide' strategy plenty of times.

Also, maybe we should make smooth lander an option for tournaments, but other than that, I have no idea. It would probably be unfesable until we start sharing savestates, if that's even possible (i'm just ignorant to whether or not thats can happen)

 

[ryuu seika]

I say 3 stock minimum, online's 2 isn't nearly enough.

As for stages, I'm for banning:
-Pictochat & Pictochat Omega (Greninja's invisible Shadow Sneak)
-Paper Mario (Overpowering wind gimmick, too little solid ground in third form)
-Corneria (Rosalina breaks Great Fox's lasers)
-Magicant (Flying Men dominate to the point of negating player interaction)
-Distant Planet (Obnoxious in so many ways, including a 1 hit kill hazard)
-Balloon Fight (Touching the drop area is near instakill with that fish and the abnormally high blastzone, making low percent kills way too easy)
-Wily's Castle (Yellow Devil)

And testing the heck out of the remainder.

EDIT: I'm now also against Unova after a game dominated by 2 stairs fires, 1 right side fire, 1 bottom line fire and a grand total of three central fires. There was very little time when a proper fight could take place.

 

[popo12]

I'm definitely for an equipment ban for reasons that others have stated. They're random and some have some weird, centralizing effects like invincibility or crit. I'm also against smooth lander for the same reasons, but also because it strikes arbitrarily forcing the game to be more like Melee for the sake of being more like Melee. If you just want Melee with a larger roster, Project M is great and I plan to keep playing it alongside 4.

As for the competitive value of this game, I feel pretty positive about it. It is slower than Melee, and I wish it had more hitstun, but it's a big improvement from Brawl. I feel like there's definitely a reward for going on the offensive, which will make the game faster than Brawl as well as improving the balance between zoners/rushdown.

As for Omega stages, the problem with leaving them legal is that they don't actually add any variety. They are almost completely identical to FD, yet different enough that leaving them legal as FD alts wouldn't really make much sense. They're neat, but I don't really see a reason to make them tourney legal.

 

[popsofctown]

What's wrong with reset bomb forest? I haven't seen any issues with the stage at all.

 

[Ffamran]

What's wrong with reset bomb forest? I haven't seen any issues with the stage at all.

When it switches, you can stand and I don't know, but it might reset a spike if it's switched right when the victim is supposed to go down, but lands instead. Also, destructible and probably obstructive platforms might be issues used against it.

 

[Piford]

When it switches, you can stand and I don't know, but it might reset a spike if it's switched right when the victim is supposed to go down, but lands instead. Also, destructible and probably obstructive platforms might be issues used against it.

But the stage is on a timer, if you know the stage is about to transform, don't go for the spike. Instead, prepare a follow up for when the stage brings the opponent back. The destructible platforms are actually a good thing because its stops the "caves of death" from occurring.

 

[Ffamran]

But the stage is on a timer, if you know the stage is about to transform, don't go for the spike. Instead, prepare a follow up for when the stage brings the opponent back. The destructible platforms are actually a good thing because its stops the "caves of death" from occurring.

Yeah, I know. I guess it would be a borderline stage where there's points for it being legal and points against it being legal.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Only omega stages I would ban are the PAC Maze and Pictochat, and only if fighting Greninja. Greninja's shadow sneak is OP on shadowless stages.

 

[popo12]

The transformation walkoff in Reset Bomb is basically the same as Castle Siege, which is legal in Brawl. This is a different game, so that might not hold, but I don't think it's enough to discount it as is.

The cave in the transformation also seems to be pretty easy to destroy if you're fighting near it. It's annoying, but it's not going to be something that can be actively camped at least.

 

[S2]

As a neutral stage, Reset Bomb definitely doesn't qualify. As a counterpick, I don't see much of an issue with it. Traditionally, stages get banned for being walk-off style, being full of walls (infinite jab combos in previous games), or a stage hazard that is way too overpowered.

The transitions on Reset Bomb can be timed and are brief. Personally, I hate the second part of the stage. But as far as stage legality goes, it doesn't seem to be all that intrusive in stage hazards. Is that stage even in the Wii U version?

 

[Piford]

As a neutral stage, Reset Bomb definitely doesn't qualify. As a counterpick, I don't see much of an issue with it. Traditionally, stages get banned for being walk-off style, being full of walls (infinite jab combos in previous games), or a stage hazard that is way too overpowered.

The transitions on Reset Bomb can be timed and are brief. Personally, I hate the second part of the stage. But as far as stage legality goes, it doesn't seem to be all that intrusive in stage hazards. Is that stage even in the Wii U version?

Nope. And there are no wall infinites in this game, since you get pushed back just a bit.

 

[6thGodBillTrinnen]

What's wrong with reset bomb forest? I haven't seen any issues with the stage at all.

Problems I see with it so far (after transformation):

-The serpent thing that flies below is huge and can randomly save players from being killed off the bottom.
-The big structure on the top left can box players in and players could camp there if they're at high percent.
-The bottom of the big structure can also ricochet players off of it and down into the pit too easily, or off of the left side of it for kills at too low percents.

It's definitely a cool layout for a stage, but the stage just has too many many elements that are disruptive for competitive play imo. I know the platform in the middle can be destroyed, but I still haven't seen any part of the top left structure be destroyed in the matches I've seen.

I tend to be supportive of a more conservative stage set, and I don't think we should allow stages with hazards or walkoffs just for the sake of variety or to try something new. Just because Sakurai didn't include a lot of stages that are friendly for competitive play doesn't mean we should be reaching for stages that have a lot of really intrusive elements.

My ideal stage list would probably be:

-Battlefield
-Yoshi's
-Prism Tower (since the walkoff is very brief and the stage takes off quickly,I'm fine with it)
-FD and variants without walls
-FD variants with walls

Probably as counterpicks, I'm also open to (but still need to see more of):

-Tomodachi Life
-Mute City (a big if, but I just haven't seen enough of it)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Problems I see with it so far (after transformation):

-The serpent thing that flies below is huge and can randomly save players from being killed off the bottom.
-The big structure on the top left can box players in and players could camp there if they're at high percent.
-The bottom of the big structure can also ricochet players off of it and down into the pit too easily, or off of the left side of it for kills at too low percents.

It's definitely a cool layout for a stage, but the stage just has too many many elements that are disruptive for competitive play imo. I know the platform in the middle can be destroyed, but I still haven't seen any part of the top left structure be destroyed in the matches I've seen.

I tend to be supportive of a more conservative stage set, and I don't think we should allow stages with hazards or walkoffs just for the sake of variety or to try something new. Just because Sakurai didn't include a lot of stages that are friendly for competitive play doesn't mean we should be reaching for stages that have a lot of really intrusive elements.

My ideal stage list would probably be:

-Battlefield
-Yoshi's
-Prism Tower (since the walkoff is very brief and the stage takes off quickly,I'm fine with it)
-FD and variants without walls
-FD variants with walls

Probably as counterpicks, I'm also open to (but still need to see more of):

-Tomodachi Life
-Mute City

The serpent thing (Lurchthorn) is on a predictable timer and the top left structure is completely destructible. It's actually pretty fragile, one or two good hits is enough to break each section.

 

[6thGodBillTrinnen]

The serpent thing (Lurchthorn) is on a predictable timer and the top left structure is completely destructible. It's actually pretty fragile, one or two good hits is enough to break each section.

Even if it's on a predictable timer, I still think it can interfere too much with the game. It's still a hazard, even if it always comes at a set time.

I would like to know exactly how much it takes to destroy those platforms though. If it has a certain amount of "HP" or something. I saw a post about being able to disable stage hazards for 4 players with a glitch, and if they can work that for tourneys and get rid of the serpent then I might be open to it.

 

[Kidney Thief]

Let's just do the same thing they do in for glory mode for the 3ds and do our own thing with custom moves and more stages in the wiiU version

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Even if it's on a predictable timer, I still think it can interfere too much with the game. It's still a hazard, even if it always comes at a set time.

I would like to know exactly how much it takes to destroy those platforms though. If it has a certain amount of "HP" or something. I saw a post about being able to disable stage hazards for 4 players with a glitch, and if they can work that for tourneys and get rid of the serpent then I might be open to it.

Brief testing shows that the wall sections have roughly 25 HP, give or take a few. One may have up to 30, it was a bit weird.

The reason Lurchthorn being predictable matters is because that way players can plan for it and possibly use it to their advantage. Rosalina's down air is a weak meteor, but it would still be enough to knock someone into the Lurchthorn, which would then knock them back up for additional hits. There's nothing wrong with using the stage to your advantage as long as it doesn't lead to degenerate play. But I feel this discussion is veering a bit off topic maybe, there's already several stage discussion threads.

 

[Gawain]

Problems I see with it so far (after transformation):

-The serpent thing that flies below is huge and can randomly save players from being killed off the bottom.
-The big structure on the top left can box players in and players could camp there if they're at high percent.
-The bottom of the big structure can also ricochet players off of it and down into the pit too easily, or off of the left side of it for kills at too low percents.

It's definitely a cool layout for a stage, but the stage just has too many many elements that are disruptive for competitive play imo. I know the platform in the middle can be destroyed, but I still haven't seen any part of the top left structure be destroyed in the matches I've seen.

I tend to be supportive of a more conservative stage set, and I don't think we should allow stages with hazards or walkoffs just for the sake of variety or to try something new. Just because Sakurai didn't include a lot of stages that are friendly for competitive play doesn't mean we should be reaching for stages that have a lot of really intrusive elements.

My ideal stage list would probably be:

-Battlefield
-Yoshi's
-Prism Tower (since the walkoff is very brief and the stage takes off quickly,I'm fine with it)
-FD and variants without walls
-FD variants with walls

Probably as counterpicks, I'm also open to (but still need to see more of):

-Tomodachi Life
-Mute City (a big if, but I just haven't seen enough of it)

I disagree with the banning of stages simply because they have walls/semi-enclosures. Hyrule Castle in 64 was and still is the hypest stage in the entire game. There are so many cool things you can do with walls that you simply can't do anywhere else. The serpent isn't a whole lot more disrupting or saving than Randal in Yoshi's. The only larger problem is the last point you made, and I still don't think it's worth outright banning the stage.

 

[Piford]

Problems I see with it so far (after transformation):

-The serpent thing that flies below is huge and can randomly save players from being killed off the bottom.
-The big structure on the top left can box players in and players could camp there if they're at high percent.
-The bottom of the big structure can also ricochet players off of it and down into the pit too easily, or off of the left side of it for kills at too low percents.

It's definitely a cool layout for a stage, but the stage just has too many many elements that are disruptive for competitive play imo. I know the platform in the middle can be destroyed, but I still haven't seen any part of the top left structure be destroyed in the matches I've seen.

I tend to be supportive of a more conservative stage set, and I don't think we should allow stages with hazards or walkoffs just for the sake of variety or to try something new. Just because Sakurai didn't include a lot of stages that are friendly for competitive play doesn't mean we should be reaching for stages that have a lot of really intrusive elements.

My ideal stage list would probably be:

-Battlefield
-Yoshi's
-Prism Tower (since the walkoff is very brief and the stage takes off quickly,I'm fine with it)
-FD and variants without walls
-FD variants with walls

Probably as counterpicks, I'm also open to (but still need to see more of):

-Tomodachi Life
-Mute City (a big if, but I just haven't seen enough of it)

I don't see your logic. Lurchthorn is on a timer, while Yoshi's ghosts are random. So if someone gets saved by lurchthorn, it is much more player controlled than being saved on yoshi's. Prism Tower can also save people, but this is again on a timer.

 

[Beninator]

I think for stagse we have
FD
BF
Yoshi's Island
Arena Ferox
Prism Tower
Rainbow Road
Reset Bomb Forrest
Tomodachi Life
Mute City
Brinstar
Corneria
Gaur Plains
3D Land

Not sure about Rainbow Road. Do the cars hit you?

Tomodaci has a layout that I personally find too awkward and not fun, but I guess I don't really have a legit argument against it.

Mute City is trash with it's awful layout. Promotes camping too much, IMO.

Brinstar was legal in Brawl, right? I can't see why, but I guess it should be legal here then, too. But it was banned in Melee, so I dunno.

Corneria is an awful stage and you should feel bad for suggesting it. Chaingrabbing/infinites under the fin, disruptive Arwing lasers. No. Terrible, terrible stage.

Gaur Plains is great, and has some kickass music, but it's a walkoff, which means easy gimps and offscreen camping.

3D Land is an annoying scrolling stage. I guess it could be legal, but I don't see it being used. Ever.

Does N's Castle have any gimmicks? I've not played on there very much, but it looks legit to me.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Not sure about Rainbow Road. Do the cars hit you?

Tomodaci has a layout that I personally find too awkward and not fun, but I guess I don't really have a legit argument against it.

Mute City is trash with it's awful layout. Promotes camping too much, IMO.

Brinstar was legal in Brawl, right? I can't see why, but I guess it should be legal here then, too. But it was banned in Melee, so I dunno.

Corneria is an awful stage and you should feel bad for suggesting it. Chaingrabbing/infinites under the fin, disruptive Arwing lasers. No. Terrible, terrible stage.

Gaur Plains is great, and has some kickass music, but it's a walkoff, which means easy gimps and offscreen camping.

3D Land is an annoying scrolling stage. I guess it could be legal, but I don't see it being used. Ever.

Does N's Castle have any gimmicks? I've not played on there very much, but it looks legit to me.

The cars are a hazard on Rainbow Road but you get a signal well in advance in the form of a giant flashing sign in the middle of the stage. They're also not terribly threatening unless you're already at kill percents.

Mute City's biggest flaw IMO is that the platforms don't have grabbable ledges, which makes recovering a very different experience than usual.

IIRC, chaingrabs and infinites are basically gone so those aren't an issue for Corneria. I don't like it too much personally but if it's banned it won't be for those reasons unless I missed some major development.

Gaur Plains has platforms under the main surface, which may (or may not) make it easier to approach walkoff campers. We'll have to see.

3D Land scrolls but I think the only random part is which platforms get tilted when going through the canyon. It's comparable to Rainbow Cruise in that respect. Also, due to the way it flows, only about half the stage really scrolls, the rest you're just on one of several different platform setups that move through an environment.

Unova Pokemon League has a few hazards going on, but they're telegraphed in advance if you pay attention to the background. The biggest worry is Reshiram, which sets part of the stage on fire for about 10 seconds. The fire itself isn't too damaging but it could possibly blanket the middle if you're really unlucky.

 

[Piford]

Corneria is an awful stage and you should feel bad for suggesting it. Chaingrabbing/infinites under the fin, disruptive Arwing lasers. No. Terrible, terrible stage.

Smash 4 has removed both chaingrabbing and wall infinites. You should feel bad for not doing research.

 

[6thGodBillTrinnen]

I don't see your logic. Lurchthorn is on a timer, while Yoshi's ghosts are random. So if someone gets saved by lurchthorn, it is much more player controlled than being saved on yoshi's. Prism Tower can also save people, but this is again on a timer.

Yea but Yoshi's is just one platform on the side of the stage, as opposed to a huge slow moving hazard that covers like half of the bottom of the stage. Moving platforms and stuff like that are fine, but this is different from a platform.

 

[Loki]

General rules: I dont see whats wrong with taking old rules as a base to formulate these new rules. This way we work around stuff that has worked in the past and just needs to be adjusted to fit the new meta. Why start from 0 when we have strong, fundamented bases to start from?
As far as rules go regarding stage-picking and counter-picking, I kind of agree. We should see this in new eyes but still, there's no reason to completelly discard past rulings if they work for this meta and can be applied here.

Stages: No. Pure flat stages are not more balanced than ever. In this game the air-to-ground transition is heavily punished because of air-dodge nerf and overall landing lag. Also, there's a handful of characters that really shine on flat stages, like Mac... this is also why you see so many Mac's and struggle against them in general in For Glory. I have nothing against flat stages but platforms should not be discarded nor discouraged. Platforms offer lots of options and intersting gameplays when interacted with them.

As for my stage suggestions...
Battlefield
Final destinations (and omega variants without walls all the way to the bottom)
Jungle Japes (the water is way stronger now but... dunno, I like this stage. A bit campy tough)
Yoshi Island
Prism Tower
Magiant (as long as something can be done regarding birdman)
Arena ferox
Reset bomb forest
Tortimer island
Boxing ring (1v1 the lights cant be that much of an issue. Walk-offs are seemingly something we'll have to live with this smash.)
Gaur plain (rather small and once again, walk-offs, but still an intersting stage that needs testing)
Tomodachi life (It has no hassards and its gimmick is pretty neglectable...)
Pac-maze (Has a pretty intersting layout and the ghosts arent so disruptive... but might pull miracle saves on launched people. Needs testing but worth considering. Stage gimmick is rather controllable and aint that game-breaking)

Stage count: 13
A healty number to work around. Some might simply not be considered, but overall I think that in the long run, around 9 at least will be really plausible.

Customs: How can we keep two equiations balanced?... imagine x+y+3=x+2y-5. How do can we add stuff to these equations while keeping them balanced?, simple, add the same thing on both sides (x+y+3+z=x+2y-5+z)... OR we can take out a common element from them (y+3=2y-5)
My point is, as we can add something to both sides of an equation to try to keep it balanced (in this case, provide both contestans with equipments) we can as well, for simplicity's sake, take them away from both sides. Equipments carry on lots of variable changes to the game that from a competitive stand-point is impossible to keep track and is overall unhealty. First of all, they change basic aspects of characters, like speed, jump, weight, % output, Knockback and more. Also, there's no fixed values to this because of the random nature of equipments, therefore a player would need to constantly adjust to new variables fight after fight; multiply that for X where X is the total number of entrants in a tourney... it is simply impossible for someone to adjust that quickly and that many times. This all meaning that, more than skill, equipment optimization would be the priority wich again, from a figthing game perspective is unhealty.

As for custom moves, I see them way more plausible than equipments because these are the same all across the board, also, their pros and cons are usually balanced (in a much more logical and sistematical maner than equipments). As far as tournaments go, it is WAY EASIER to register a character under a format of:

Robin: 2311

Because of how customs moves are catalogued, it is pretty easy and quick to understand what this means (In the example, Robin has thunder+, firewall, stock elwind and stock nosferatu). With equipments however this is not the case... given again the random nature of equipments, the best we can do is say:

Robin: +83 strenght, -35 defence, +49 speed
*reduced landing lag
*quicker smash attacks
*Critical hit chance

Wich is, right now, impossible to understand. Each of these stats changes affect every character different because they alter the characters in a scaled fashion. Again, apply this case to dozens to hundreds of participants... its impossible to timely adjust one-self solely based on skill. And all of this without even having mentioned cheese about equipments with special bonuses... these things simply dont work from a figthing game stand-point of even grounds. If we want even grounds, we might as well eliminate variables instead of adding them to both sides.

Comparison: Its not about making this game more "Meleeish", its about making it overall better. The meta is on diapers and has lots and lots of potential on many aspects, therefore we should indulge on said potentials and explore every nook and crany to shape this game's meta in a way that is best enjoyed by pros, casuals and spectators alike. This way its life expectancy, popularity and tournament attendance will improve and grow... wich is what we all should be aiming for, independently on the possibility of that turning this game in a melee-alike or not.

 

[6thGodBillTrinnen]

I disagree with the banning of stages simply because they have walls/semi-enclosures. Hyrule Castle in 64 was and still is the hypest stage in the entire game. There are so many cool things you can do with walls that you simply can't do anywhere else. The serpent isn't a whole lot more disrupting or saving than Randal in Yoshi's. The only larger problem is the last point you made, and I still don't think it's worth outright banning the stage.

Well it's not really just one thing, it's a combination of all of the things.

The serpent is more disruptive than something like Randall, which is basically just a small moving platform. It basically walls off half of a given part of the stage, and it moves slowly enough that I think it's a big deal. I understand how others wouldn't, but I lean towards the conservative side for stages.

 

[Gawain]

Well it's not really just one thing, it's a combination of all of the things.

The serpent is more disruptive than something like Randall, which is basically just a small moving platform. It basically walls off half of a given part of the stage, and it moves slowly enough that I think it's a big deal. I understand how others wouldn't, but I lean towards the conservative side for stages.

Fair enough reasoning. Still, I feel like we're missing out on some serious crazy stuff by limiting stages to just flat planes with non-collidable platforms.

 

[Dragoomba]

Only omega stages I would ban are the PAC Maze and Pictochat, and only if fighting Greninja. Greninja's shadow sneak is OP on shadowless stages.

Then it's a counterpick, lol. This was the same situation with Snake's C4 on Lylat in Brawl.

 

[ryuu seika]

Then it's a counterpick, lol. This was the same situation with Snake's C4 on Lylat in Brawl.

Except Lylat was a unique stage, whereas these are just slight variations on FD that add little to the game besides this visual difficulty.

 

[Nintymat]

Boxing ring (1v1 the lights cant be that much of an issue. Walk-offs are seemingly something we'll have to live with this smash.)

I'm sorry, but absolutely ****ing not. We don't need to force ourselves to use bad stages for the sake of stage variety, even if we end up using only battlefield for every single Smash 4 game ever.

Walk-offs are stupid for competitive play, promote camping, and should be avoided. Same with lights at the top.

In reality, for Smash to be played competitively we only NEED at a minimum:

One neutral stage with 0 platforms
One neutral stage with some platforms

And on of course we have both of those in BF and FD. Anything else is simply a bonus.

 

[Roxas215]

Anyone who is saying neutral stages should all be flat are delusional. It's been proven time and time again BF is so much better then FD.

 

[Piford]

I'm sorry, but absolutely ****ing not. We don't need to force ourselves to use bad stages for the sake of stage variety, even if we end up using only battlefield for every single Smash 4 game ever.

Walk-offs are stupid for competitive play, promote camping, and should be avoided. Same with lights at the top.

In reality, for Smash to be played competitively we only NEED at a minimum:

One neutral stage with 0 platforms
One neutral stage with some platforms

And on of course we have both of those in BF and FD. Anything else is simply a bonus.

But we need more stage variety. More stages adds balance to the game, and adds to the game being competitive. You're right that we shouldn't add bad stages, but we can't be limited in what we pick. Also no stages are neutral, as every stage gives advantages to some characters. Final Destination is not even close to neutral. I personally agree that Boxing Ring is a bad stage, but not simple because it has walk-offs.