I think we should consider reevaluating competitive Smash back to its roots.

[C-SAF]

FD is not a neutral, and unless im not up to date with Smash4 news I heard the only difference between the 3ds and WiiU version was that the stages would be different....so theres no point looking at the 3ds for a stage list at this point.

As for comparing Smash4 to melee, I think its totally valid to do so. Comparing Smash4 to Street Fighter and MC makes no sense. I fell in love with Smash because it was different from those games. If I liked the defensive style of those games I would just play them as the companies who make those games actually support their communities, and new interations of those games retain what made the one before them successful.

 

[KenMeister]

What is everyone's thoughts regarding Tomadatchi Life and Tortimer Island?
Tortimer Island looks like a relaively harmless stage, though the only thing I see being a major concern is the health-healing fruits from the palm trees.
TL on the other hand, seems like a very different stage from what I've seen in other games, and it looks like a good counterpick against heavy projectile campers, since you have multiple floors to work with. The low ceiling might be of concern, but would it be considered broken if someone were to hang out on the bottom-most floor in the stage? I'm trying to think of whether or not there are safe options to deal with that.

 

[Piford]

What is everyone's thoughts regarding Tomadatchi Life and Tortimer Island?
Tortimer Island looks like a relaively harmless stage, though the only thing I see being a major concern is the health-healing fruits from the palm trees.
TL on the other hand, seems like a very different stage from what I've seen in other games, and it looks like a good counterpick against heavy projectile campers, since you have multiple floors to work with. The low ceiling might be of concern, but would it be considered broken if someone were to hang out on the bottom-most floor in the stage? I'm trying to think of whether or not there are safe options to deal with that.

TL is pretty good.

Tortimer's Island is pretty bad unfortunately because of the Random Layout. On top of that, it can spawn fruit that heal you, heal you and give a banana peel, are projectiles, or are bombs (which look the same as projectile ones do). Also beehives can fall on the tree. Occasionally, one or both of the ledges will be ungrabbable. On top of all that you have the shark (swims and does damage) and Kapp'n (Rides his boat across the stage, blocking people under it, also can carry players across the blast line) stage hazards. It really has too many small flaws to make it legal.

 

[KenMeister]

TL is pretty good.

Tortimer's Island is pretty bad unfortunately because of the Random Layout. On top of that, it can spawn fruit that heal you, heal you and give a banana peel, are projectiles, or are bombs (which look the same as projectile ones do). Also beehives can fall on the tree. Occasionally, one or both of the ledges will be ungrabbable. On top of all that you have the shark (swims and does damage) and Kapp'n (Rides his boat across the stage, blocking people under it, also can carry players across the blast line) stage hazards. It really has too many small flaws to make it legal.

Huh, never knew about all those random gimmicks, tells you just how deceiving a stage can look from first glance (lol). I played the stage like once or twice and never knew about the random layouts, which tells you how little I pay attention to the new stages (since I barely play them outside of getting unlockables in Classic/All-Star).
Also, I forgot to Mention Arena Ferox, is it any good, or do the transformations benefit camping way too much, and/or the statues get in the way of making certain approach options?

 

[ZeroJanitor]

I don't know off-hand all of Arena Ferox's layouts but I know at least two of them have pretty substantial caves, and one has breakable statues like Castle Siege

It's not perfect but probably ok for a counterpick

 

[Sleek Media]

TC, you can make as much sense as you want, but it ultimately comes down to this. The "competitive" community only wants Melee. Smash 4 is not Melee. Therefore, the days of Smash 4 in the current "competitive" community are numbered. There was never any question that the people who have heavily invested in Melee for more than a decade would choose it over anything else that came out, no matter how balanced the roster or deep the meta.

That said, if you want to create a NEW competitive community, then you might have a chance. There are alot of players like me who get no entertainment from watching five thousand Foxes dash dancing around each other, looking for a twitchy opportunity to land a shine spike combo. I'm more impressed by creativity and strategy, and this game offers the potential for loads of it. I'd like to see us break away from the "lifeless stages only" attitude and bring in some of the crazy ones. If the players can't handle that and camp on walk-offs like little *******, then make a "no camping on walk-offs like a little *****" rule. We did it for planking. I'm also in favor of items for some tournaments. Yes, they dramatically alter a match, but that's precisely WHY I like them. No two matches are the same. Can you even tell the difference from one Zero vs Hungrybox match to the next? It's exciting to see someone get totally screwed, fight as hard as they can against the odds (literally), then finally get a chance at a big comeback in the final moments.

I don't think every tournament should be the wild west with stages and items. I think that the current format (no items, static stages) and a new format (items, crazy stages) are equally important. In fact, I want there to be even more formats (custom moves, equipment, etc). I'd like to see people show their skill in all aspects of the game, not just some tiny little fragment.

Finally, I really think we need to do away with double elimination. It takes an insanely long time to finish even a small tournament, and you spend much more of it waiting than actually playing. It's exhausting, and I admit that I actually feel less like playing Smash for a while after a tournament when I should feel pumped up instead. I think that for local tournaments, the Swiss system would be far superior (more games for every player, better assessment of player skill). For big showy tournaments, high stakes single elimination is exciting and easy to watch in a single sitting.

 

[C-SAF]

TC, you can make as much sense as you want, but it ultimately comes down to this. The "competitive" community only wants Melee. Smash 4 is not Melee. Therefore, the days of Smash 4 in the current "competitive" community are numbered. There was never any question that the people who have heavily invested in Melee for more than a decade would choose it over anything else that came out, no matter how balanced the roster or deep the meta.

That said, if you want to create a NEW competitive community, then you might have a chance. There are alot of players like me who get no entertainment from watching five thousand Foxes dash dancing around each other, looking for a twitchy opportunity to land a shine spike combo. I'm more impressed by creativity and strategy, and this game offers the potential for loads of it. I'd like to see us break away from the "lifeless stages only" attitude and bring in some of the crazy ones. If the players can't handle that and camp on walk-offs like little *****es, then make a "no camping on walk-offs like a little *****" rule. We did it for planking. I'm also in favor of items for some tournaments. Yes, they dramatically alter a match, but that's precisely WHY I like them. No two matches are the same. Can you even tell the difference from one Zero vs Hungrybox match to the next? It's exciting to see someone get totally screwed, fight as hard as they can against the odds (literally), then finally get a chance at a big comeback in the final moments.

I don't think every tournament should be the wild west with stages and items. I think that the current format (no items, static stages) and a new format (items, crazy stages) are equally important. In fact, I want there to be even more formats (custom moves, equipment, etc). I'd like to see people show their skill in all aspects of the game, not just some tiny little fragment.

Finally, I really think we need to do away with double elimination. It takes an insanely long time to finish even a small tournament, and you spend much more of it waiting than actually playing. It's exhausting, and I admit that I actually feel less like playing Smash for a while after a tournament when I should feel pumped up instead. I think that for local tournaments, the Swiss system would be far superior (more games for every player, better assessment of player skill). For big showy tournaments, high stakes single elimination is exciting and easy to watch in a single sitting.

Double elimination would be even more important if you want to include crazy random elements. At the highest level nobody wants to feel they got screwed out of a tourney because a baseball bat landed next to there opponent. Crazy **** is fun, but evo being decided by a stage hazard or pokeball would be a buzz kill.

On a side note too, almost everything in the community is fan run, so if enough people liked the game to be played this way it would probably be happening.

 

[Sleek Media]

Double elimination would be even more important if you want to include crazy random elements. At the highest level nobody wants to feel they got screwed out of a tourney because a baseball bat landed next to there opponent. Crazy **** is fun, but evo being decided by a stage hazard or pokeball would be a buzz kill.

On a side note too, almost everything in the community is fan run, so if enough people liked the game to be played this way it would probably be happening.

You should understand that there is a reason why the NFL playoffs and the Super Bowl get so much more attention than their baseball, hockey, and basketball equivalents. The difference is that the NFL runs single elimination when crowning a champion. It's easy to get excited for and to spectate. Even if you are a passive fan, you can enjoy it with little investment. It would work the same way for smash. Cut the duration of tournaments from 5-8hrs to 2-3hrs, and watch the viewership explode. Nobody will care if the "most skilled" player doesn't win. Well, except for the video game equivalent of the guy who has his team logo plastered all over his house.

 

[Lenus Altair]

I am personally very excited about custom specials and how the general leaning seems to be to allow them in tournaments. That inherently would make the game very different from Melee and probably in a distinctly interesting way.Even if say it becomes standardized that you choose a character/special setup prior to the tournament and are locked into it, that add a lot of metagaming and counterpicking within characters which smash really didn't have before (though perhaps you could argue transform/poke trainer had that element.)

What is really potentially interesting is the idea of counter picking specials. Can you imagine knowing your going against a specific character with your main in the next round and getting to cater your specials to that? If tournies were setup to allow it (say declare characters before a round/match and then getting to choose your saved builds based on who your facing) it would potential be very unique among fighters.

I'm a Pit player and I know my opponent is Rosalina. If she stays as popular a tournament presence as initial impressions would suggest, I may have a Pit built to better fight her, like say using his piercing arrow to shot through Luma potentially hurting them both (yes there is gravity pull but just a thought.)

Regardless how custom moves are integrated into smash tournies, they will be defining how the game differs from it's predecessors just as much if not more so then system changes.

 

[Sleek Media]

I like the idea of double blind custom moves. You might know I main Mario, but do you assume I'll be bringing a gust cape or a shocking cape? It could matter a lot to your main, and even change a counter pick to my favor if you guess wrong.

What's really nice about that is that it adds a layer to the meta for top players (knowing your opponent), so everyone has something to like.

 

[hell-dew]

Tisland should NEVER be even considered for competitive on top of all the already pretty annoying gimmicks the camera on that stage is horrid. it zooms way out whenever the boat come making it insanely annoying to play on I would argue rainbow road or japes over that crap >.> both of which im not a big fan of but are still almost usable.

 

[deepseadiva]

I understand the desire to not stick with the current rules just because that's the way it always was, but that ISN'T the way it always was. These rules were forged over YEARS of competitive play. They embody a huge amount of time and effort.

Glad this was said. This community has grown up a lot, and as much as we really do need to approach each game "fresh", they knowledge we've built up is a very important tool to getting to the most accurate tests of skill we can get.

Importantly, we need to include as much of the game as possible, while yes removing the huge amount of random already in it. We're searching for a specific version, and that will come with time, and hopefully with a "whittling away" approach, rather than banning loads and loads from the start.

 

[Mataata]

A thousand times yes. People need to just bury Melee and completely switch over to Smash 4, along with all the new rules and play styles that brings. It's soooo good and fresh and it's time they moved on and stopped judging other games based on the old one that plays nothing like the rest of them.

 

[kchamp523]

A thousand times yes. People need to just bury Melee and completely switch over to Smash 4, along with all the new rules and play styles that brings. It's soooo good and fresh and it's time they moved on and stopped judging other games based on the old one that plays nothing like the rest of them.

Umm, so why can't people play what they enjoy?

 

[Sleek Media]

That's his point. We don't want to be held back by Melee anymore. If you want to continue playing it fine, just don't expect everyone to get on board with trying to twist Smash 4 into a game that's two generations old.

 

[otter]

You should understand that there is a reason why the NFL playoffs and the Super Bowl get so much more attention than their baseball, hockey, and basketball equivalents. The difference is that the NFL runs single elimination when crowning a champion. It's easy to get excited for and to spectate. Even if you are a passive fan, you can enjoy it with little investment. It would work the same way for smash. Cut the duration of tournaments from 5-8hrs to 2-3hrs, and watch the viewership explode. Nobody will care if the "most skilled" player doesn't win. Well, except for the video game equivalent of the guy who has his team logo plastered all over his house.

Competitive smash is a test of skill, not a distraction between beer commercials.

 

[Sleek Media]

Competitive smash is a test of skill, not a distraction between beer commercials.

How can I be an elite hardcore mad skillz gamer like you???

 

[C-SAF]

You should understand that there is a reason why the NFL playoffs and the Super Bowl get so much more attention than their baseball, hockey, and basketball equivalents. The difference is that the NFL runs single elimination when crowning a champion. It's easy to get excited for and to spectate. Even if you are a passive fan, you can enjoy it with little investment. It would work the same way for smash. Cut the duration of tournaments from 5-8hrs to 2-3hrs, and watch the viewership explode. Nobody will care if the "most skilled" player doesn't win. Well, except for the video game equivalent of the guy who has his team logo plastered all over his house.

Talking to a HUGE baseball fan here (GO KC WORLD SERIES OR BUST!), and baseball is not that far from football in ratings now, but it actually brings in more money in viewership (not merchandise). That's because of volume. 162 games and full post season series means more occasions to draw viewers negates the fact that they have less per game (although its not much less once the World Series starts).

Smash would fit this model better because its viewership will never "explode". Even with Smash4 being mainstream for the moment, only the tiniest amount of that audience will tune in for tournaments. Volume of matches for the hardcore smash fan is better one game elimination that would really attract barely anyone extra. Unless you could advertise the literal crap out of it like the NFL, people who don't follow smash will not tune in because there is more at stake suddenly.

None of that matters anyway though, as viewership has never been the primary focus for tournaments. The players care if the "most skilled" player wins. They actually care a lot. Make a tournament where players feel cheated and they will not go. Even if you tell them they will bring more viewers in, they will not care, its not like they are paid to be there (like NFL or MLB). Other tournaments that are fair will be run and the unfair model will cease to exist. It already happened with melee and that is the best reason to emulate its success.

 

[C-SAF]

How can I be an elite hardcore mad skillz gamer like you???

Play the game for a bit and get pissed off when you lose to crappier players because of random factors. Its a one step program.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

There isn't anything noble about bringing the game "back to its roots". Items are stupid. It only takes a couple matches to realize that.

 

[SupremeSuperiorStick]

TC, you can make as much sense as you want, but it ultimately comes down to this. The "competitive" community only wants Melee. Smash 4 is not Melee. Therefore, the days of Smash 4 in the current "competitive" community are numbered. There was never any question that the people who have heavily invested in Melee for more than a decade would choose it over anything else that came out, no matter how balanced the roster or deep the meta.

That said, if you want to create a NEW competitive community, then you might have a chance. There are alot of players like me who get no entertainment from watching five thousand Foxes dash dancing around each other, looking for a twitchy opportunity to land a shine spike combo. I'm more impressed by creativity and strategy, and this game offers the potential for loads of it. I'd like to see us break away from the "lifeless stages only" attitude and bring in some of the crazy ones. If the players can't handle that and camp on walk-offs like little *****es, then make a "no camping on walk-offs like a little *****" rule. We did it for planking. I'm also in favor of items for some tournaments. Yes, they dramatically alter a match, but that's precisely WHY I like them. No two matches are the same. Can you even tell the difference from one Zero vs Hungrybox match to the next? It's exciting to see someone get totally screwed, fight as hard as they can against the odds (literally), then finally get a chance at a big comeback in the final moments.

I don't think every tournament should be the wild west with stages and items. I think that the current format (no items, static stages) and a new format (items, crazy stages) are equally important. In fact, I want there to be even more formats (custom moves, equipment, etc). I'd like to see people show their skill in all aspects of the game, not just some tiny little fragment.

Finally, I really think we need to do away with double elimination. It takes an insanely long time to finish even a small tournament, and you spend much more of it waiting than actually playing. It's exhausting, and I admit that I actually feel less like playing Smash for a while after a tournament when I should feel pumped up instead. I think that for local tournaments, the Swiss system would be far superior (more games for every player, better assessment of player skill). For big showy tournaments, high stakes single elimination is exciting and easy to watch in a single sitting.

There's a good reason why items are banned, and it's not like we didn't give them a chance either. Remember Brawl at Evo 2008? Yeah... I'm usually open to change, but not something that will almost certainly change the scene for the worse.

Custom Moves, honestly seem like a great idea. In the Street Fighter scene I'm pretty sure you can choose from both your Ultra Combos, it isn't strictly tied to one, so I doubt custom moves would be too much different.

Oh and I think we should give Equipment a chance, but not in regular tournaments. I would rather prefer them to be showcased at Side-Tournaments.

 

[Sleek Media]

Yes, they did have items at Evo 2008 and Ken was a finalist "despite" their presence, and despite Marth not being particularly strong with them (except the smash ball of course). I'm not saying make EVERY tournament have all items. I'm saying to add some variety, and make some tournaments with the current format, and others with new formats (items, FFA, etc). Why would you be so strongly opposed to diversifying the competitive format, unless you are actually afraid that the current format would be replaced by one of the new formats?

 

[Conda]

Yes, they did have items at Evo 2008 and Ken was a finalist "despite" their presence, and despite Marth not being particularly strong with them (except the smash ball of course). I'm not saying make EVERY tournament have all items. I'm saying to add some variety, and make some tournaments with the current format, and others with new formats (items, FFA, etc). Why would you be so strongly opposed to diversifying the competitive format, unless you are actually afraid that the current format would be replaced by one of the new formats?

Start running tournaments locally with this ruleset and, if it is a superior setup that encourages players to compete from all over the nation and improve their skills more than the current rules, then your ruleset will catch on.

Otherwise, there is nothing we can tell TOs to do just because we want it done for our amusement.

Also, 'items off' has nothing to do with melee. Bringing melee up is off-topic as it itself is not the series' roots. And 'roots' means nothing, as we've grown positively through the past decade. Bringing the game to its roots means to de-evolve the ruleset and throw out a decade of experience. Just to entertain you with random item drops?

 

[Loki]

I wonder who are the really fixated people regarding melee... as far as I can tell, Melee purists will stay there and end up minding their own business as they always have. It´s most likely those who hate melee who keep bringing it up.

"Those who forget their past are bound to make the same mistakes again and again"

As it has been mentioned again and again, its not about turning this game into a melee-clone, however why should we start everything from zero when we have what has been worked from the rough to daimonds trough plenty of years? And with this I mean rule-set. I am not saying we should use Melee´s and/or Brawl´s rules point-by-point, however we should start working from those and then adjust them rules to better work with the developing meta-game of Smash4. Why throw away a decade of data, tournament experience and stadistics when we can simply work around what is SOLIDLY stablished and that works for a goddamned reason?

 

[Sleek Media]

Because Smash4 has a completely different set of mechanics than Melee and Brawl?

Because there's no reason to have one ruleset master race?

Because people like to play with variety?

Because the "time perfected" rules have been around for just over 5 measley years? Compare to sports and non-video game games which have been refined over the course of decades or even hundreds of years.

Oops. Sorry, I did that common sense thing again.

 

[C-SAF]

Because Smash4 has a completely different set of mechanics than Melee and Brawl?

Because there's no reason to have one ruleset master race?

Because people like to play with variety?

Because the "time perfected" rules have been around for just over 5 measley years? Compare to sports and non-video game games which have been refined over the course of decades or even hundreds of years.

Oops. Sorry, I did that common sense thing again.

Sports that have been around for "hundreds of years" do not redefine themselves every 5 years, they work off and adjust the rules to suit the changing sport. Your common sense should see that.

There is no master race either, only a practical set of rules that came from the community. The community makes the rules they want to play by and then plays by them. You can organize tournaments however you want, nobody polices the rules you put in place, but if players begin to think them unfair they wont attend your tournament.

Also, you should try to tone down the attitude. If your going to be TOing tournaments with an ass-backwards rule set, it would be advised to at least not insult those who attend them.