I still don't think we're heading in the right track here.

[phi1ny3]

I think the players that accept the faults that Lucario has will always be better then the ones who are optimistic and think everything Lucario has should be used. There's a reason Lucario is 14th on the Tier list. Sure he can compete with alot of the cast, but he obviously doesn't have as many options as the characters above him.

Quite a true statement, I think everyone within reason knows that lucario isn't "god tier" though. My only pickle with looking at limitations is that it can occasionally get in the way of high level discussion when people just assume their tools are "crap" and ALWAYS compare it to something much better, which is not the point, it's how to find ways around those limits. But I think the bair tangent went without the purpose in mind: We need to assess the best in moves that tend to be a little better but people have no clue in using lol, as well as our "super" moves.
I'm going to disagree with Timbers (no surprise) and say that on paper bair is crap, but actually has a lot more use in terms of actual metagame application, but I do say that he has points to be made and heard, but the main point was that there are moves I've seen people horrendously misuse certain moves without factoring what the move's typical "role" should be based on hitbox area, speed, duration, and other factors. tl;dr we've got differing opinions on moves, which is NOT new to any character's metagame that holds a little more flexibility, but that doesn't mean that the same moves are pointless to define and pour more depth into them. This also applies to our incredible moves, which I've also seen people do "less than stellar" with.

 

[Timbers]

Just because a move CAN be countered doesnt mean it wont work. Thats where mindgames come in. For example, lets say im fighting snake. I fair through his shield, and am about to land behind him. I decide to play it safe and just FFAD to the ground a bit behind him, and shield. I notice as I am landing that he attempts to ftilt me. The next time I fair through his shield crossing over, I could try to hit him with a dair as he is dropping his shield to execute the ftilt. Then he will be wary of trying that tactic, allowing me to explore other options, including bair.


Keep in mind this is just a hypothetical situation, but one that could conceivably happen...

I think sometimes you get too hung up on whether a move can be punished to actually consider the possibility of an opponent NOT choosing the right option for a given situation.

I think too many people believe I play up on theory too much, which isn't the case lol. Fair>bair use to be a part of my mixups, but after being punished so much from it and reaping little benefits as bair is so slow and easy to react to, I slowly shy away from it and as such, formed an opinion on it lol. As it is, using fair against Snake is difficult due to utilt (and to a lesser extent, ftilt) being a very good counter move. Using it and continuing to pressure with a slow move is hard, and a perfect shield on fair actually gives him time to drop shield and utilt you before you can do much of anything, if you decide to fly through his shield. Fair>ffAD/nair is a much more legit mixup than fair>bair ever will be I think, but it's open to debate. Being able to keep them in their shields while staying as lagless as possible is nice.

Essentially, that's what this game is about--its less about "true combos that work every time" and more about forcing your opponent into a situation that is disadvantageous, and trying to elicit a specific response in order to punish it.

Having almost a second of lag above an opponent (fair afterlag, bair startup) I'd consider a disadvantage lol.

Fair>bair was good when people were unaware of how to react to Luc's air game OOS, much like when fsmash walling was amazing or how Luc's dair was super-amazing-awesome.

I'm going to disagree with Timbers (no surprise) and say that on paper bair is crap

How is the move crap on paper? On paper, it's amazing. Long range, high lingering hitbox frames, pseudo wall ability thanks to floaty nature of Luc, etc.

and then you actually play and realize that bair never traps people with it's lingering hitbox because the actual hitbox is so linear that it's ridiculously easy to get around it, and that moves that may lack range will still outdo it due to all the blindspots you have when having your back on the enemy.

There's more but it's a general idea.

 

[Aurasmash14]

I think the players that accept the faults that Lucario has will always be better then the ones who are optimistic and think everything Lucario has should be used. There's a reason Lucario is 14th on the Tier list. Sure he can compete with alot of the cast, but he obviously doesn't have as many options as the characters above him.

and THAT is what i need to start doing. I still do a lot of daring stunts (DT off the ledge anyone?) that i need to stop T_T . anyways he definitely does not have as much options in a fight compared to say, snake. Heck even some lower tier chars can pull cool looking ****. Oh well, if i want to do some crap, I'll just counter pick Falco.

 

[phi1ny3]

But looking at it's stats about it not outlasting AD and putting "the floaty" factor in is what I consider evaluating it without considering other factors that don't get looked at "on paper". Bair has power and good range, it's arguably one of his earliest killing aerials and will trade will all but a few of the longest ranged aerials in the game, especially good against an MK who's mispaced a fair since obviously the bair is far better in the trade (MK gets only one slash, lucario gets his full hit, it's why marth's fair is better vs. MK's fair in terms of tradeoff). Just one scenario of what bair can do okay in (such as forcing a jump pattern with BAS/AS then trying the bair, or edgeguarding because of nair's obvious lack of viability offstage).
Look, the point is there are moves to be explored and we've obviously exhausted DT, ES, and all those in every aspect, but I feel there is discussion to be invested in overlooked moves like lucario's tilts and aerials. I'm done with the "bair war", maybe it would be good in the moveset discussion thread or something lol.

 

[Aurasmash14]

I'm done with the "bair war", maybe it would be good in the moveset discussion thread or something lol.

you better hope 2skilld has been taking notes.

 

[Timbers]

But looking at it's stats about it not outlasting AD and putting "the floaty" factor in is what I consider evaluating it without considering other factors that don't get looked at "on paper". Bair has power and good range, it's arguably one of his earliest killing aerials and will trade will all but a few of the longest ranged aerials in the game, especially good against an MK who's mispaced a fair since obviously the bair is far better in the trade (MK gets only one slash, lucario gets his full hit, it's why marth's fair is better vs. MK's fair in terms of tradeoff). Just one scenario of what bair can do okay in (such as forcing a jump pattern with BAS/AS then trying the bair, or edgeguarding because of nair's obvious lack of viability offstage).
Look, the point is there are moves to be explored and we've obviously exhausted DT, ES, and all those in every aspect, but I feel there is discussion to be invested in overlooked moves like lucario's tilts and aerials. I'm done with the "bair war", maybe it would be good in the moveset discussion thread or something lol.

tl;dr but MK uses vertical spacing much more often than horizontal while onstage. Setting up bairs is kind of asking to get punished by dair/uair/shuttleloop/nado, but whatever lol. I don't want to talk about this anymore.

 

[Mota]

here this is the close combat combo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdIR9pEkAoo

I am uneducated in the ways of Lucario, but that was ****.

Is it guaranteed ?

 

[Aurasmash14]

I am uneducated in the ways of Lucario, but that was ****.

Is it guaranteed ?

nope. they can DI out of it, but if your good with the spacing, and use it as a surprise, they wont be breaking out soon.

 

[phi1ny3]

It allows basically one more option ooFP, one that gives you a little more options afterward, unfortunately lots of characters can DI out of it (I still need to test it on DK and one other char).

 

[Aurasmash14]

It allows basically one more option ooFP, one that gives you a little more options afterward, unfortunately lots of characters can DI out of it (I still need to test it on DK and one other char).

It never really got as epic as we thought it would, but ya it was something at least.

 

[phi1ny3]

One thing that I do know is that jab -> grab is really reliable, so that's one more viable use for it, but the problem is that most of lucario's throws don't allow much FP regrab, if at all.
But it does help make FP a little better of a pseudo-CG.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Lucario's throws always lead to the aerials, except maybe Bthrow.

 

[phi1ny3]

One thing I actually like to do with bthrow at mid/low %'s is vs. heavies (once again, no surprise because I play with a bowser regularly) is that they'll almost always try to input something so that the bthrow doesn't turn into a "tech chase" (they usually fall into the laying position by default regardless of DI) especially when you walk/dash towards them, and you have a small window of time where you can try to grab again -> bthrow.

 

[Aurasmash14]

I play with a yoshi regularly, but that never worked for me.. oh yes i have a small question, how much of lucario's grab game have we explored? we exhausted moves like ES and AS already, lets get with grabs!

 

[phi1ny3]

Heavies, as in ginormous hurtboxes.
Doesn't work on smaller ones really :\
Grabs would be good, but we've explored uthrow pretty heavily imo lol, I think I'll look into dthrow some more.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Yeah. Dthrow hasnt been explored through and through yet, if only because of its susceptibility to DI.

 

[phi1ny3]

Against heavies once again, it functions as a more damaging uthrow, you can still string with it as far as I've worked with it even if they DI, and it's helped a lot.

 

[Alus]

OK how long is this Bloggish thread gunna go?

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, I think it's kind of done.

 

[D. Disciple]

I'm actually surprised it's been up this long. Usually my threads die out within the day

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This thread was a nice read.

I'll stay optimistic with Lucario, being pessimistic doesn't suite me well.

 

[phi1ny3]

You still gotta admit his weaknesses exist and will hold you back on certain aspects though.
But theorizing/blahblah at highest levels of play is nearly like your opponent can read your mind, which for lucario is frankly depressing to discuss. Hence why I don't like entirely discussing in the MU thread for me.

 

[D. Disciple]

Honestly I don't like the MU thread at all. It's a nice thing to have, but I feel discouraged whenever I look at it lol.

 

[phi1ny3]

The winds of change are a-blowin'...

 

[D. Disciple]

All in all whenever I play a certain character. I either feel comfortable playing against them with Lucario or not, and if so that'll determine how well I will perform.

Just need to get over that hump of beating Snakes, then I work my way back to the peak of the mountain where my Lucario belongs.

 

[Aurasmash14]

The winds of change are a-blowin'...

Let's hope its not just a small breeze this time.

 

[Timbers]

nope. they can DI out of it, but if your good with the spacing, and use it as a surprise, they wont be breaking out soon.

half the characters in this game can mash A and punish you with their nair. lol. It's not a difficult thing to deal with.

It never really got as epic as we thought it would, but ya it was something at least.

jab cancelling isn't new, we already know what it does and what it did.

You still gotta admit his weaknesses exist and will hold you back on certain aspects though.
But theorizing/blahblah at highest levels of play is nearly like your opponent can read your mind, which for lucario is frankly depressing to discuss. Hence why I don't like entirely discussing in the MU thread for me.

pressing airdodge or shield isn't something you can only achieve in high level play lol.

 

[phi1ny3]

Reading those isn't "high level" either lol.

You cannot win. I have the higher ground!
Frankly, I think this should die down.

 

[Alus]

Now now now, You know what he said!

Let's all leave this pathetic thread!

 

[D. Disciple]

Why must my thread be pathetic?

 

[ckm]

Lol, I read your post with an angry tone. Sorry I assumed.

Also, Meta's (insert any move) makes everyone want to lie in front of an approaching truck. Tornado can stop a G&W bucket spill, wtf...

its cool. internet discussions fail again T-T

i had no idea tornado stopped bucket, thats ********.

 

[ckm]

I think too many people believe I play up on theory too much, which isn't the case lol. Fair>bair use to be a part of my mixups, but after being punished so much from it and reaping little benefits as bair is so slow and easy to react to, I slowly shy away from it and as such, formed an opinion on it lol. As it is, using fair against Snake is difficult due to utilt (and to a lesser extent, ftilt) being a very good counter move. Using it and continuing to pressure with a slow move is hard, and a perfect shield on fair actually gives him time to drop shield and utilt you before you can do much of anything, if you decide to fly through his shield. Fair>ffAD/nair is a much more legit mixup than fair>bair ever will be I think, but it's open to debate. Being able to keep them in their shields while staying as lagless as possible is nice.



Having almost a second of lag above an opponent (fair afterlag, bair startup) I'd consider a disadvantage lol.

Fair>bair was good when people were unaware of how to react to Luc's air game OOS, much like when fsmash walling was amazing or how Luc's dair was super-amazing-awesome.

I agree with much of your post--your logic is solid, in a sense. fair>bair is indeed a punishable move.

I am not arguing that though. I'm merely saying that it can be a decent addition to your shield pressure game, and shouldn't be ignored simply because it can be countered.

 

[Alus]

i had no idea tornado stopped bucket, thats ********.

Wait... wtf?

 

[phi1ny3]

why Must My Thread Be Pathetic?

THEY MAD

Spoiler

10mads

 

[D. Disciple]

THEY MAD

Spoiler

10mads

VERY! Nah I'm chill

 

[Alus]

THEY MAD

Spoiler

10mads

NO U
10lolsImHungryIAmGunnaSeeWhatIsForLunch

 

[phi1ny3]

VERY!

NO U
10lolsImHungryIAmGunnaSeeWhatIsForLunch

now U MAD.

 

[RT]

its cool. internet discussions fail again T-T

i had no idea tornado stopped bucket, thats ********.

Wait... wtf?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMSsQuSa5no#t=3m33s

Meta Knight may not break the game, but he's getting pretty close...

 

[Zucco]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMSsQuSa5no#t=3m33s

Meta Knight may not break the game, but he's getting pretty close...

This is Hilarious

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You still gotta admit his weaknesses exist and will hold you back on certain aspects though.
But theorizing/blahblah at highest levels of play is nearly like your opponent can read your mind, which for lucario is frankly depressing to discuss. Hence why I don't like entirely discussing in the MU thread for me.

Optimism or rather looking in that sort of light, is to admit your weaknesses while looking for a brighter future where you can overcome them and do what you wish to set out to do, doing good with Lucario/Link for me.

I admit Lucario and especially Link have flaws that can hold them back from being as good as other characters, we just face the truth and keep moving. Being pessimistic won't get you anywhere in improving your abilities or improving the moral of other who want to do the same, it stales the characters meta game.

That's how I see it.

edit: wtf, metaknight.