I question the developers testing regarding Zelda.

[Gay Ginger]

Well, usmash only overshadowed utilt imo if you didn't use it for combos. If you did do those usmash combos it might be stale by the time kill percents come around. Utilt was my favorite move for Zelda in Brawl, cuz like..nobody knew it existed lmao. It killed really early at like 110% too and was a great antiair with somewhat quick startup. I'm glad it's been changed into a combo move tho

Oh, and Lightning Kicks? Umm, just make them like Melee or Project M, except don't make them stale eachother. I'd be fine with the ending lag if they revamped them like that.

The ending and land lag wouldn't be so painful if sourspotted LKs had enough knockback to be safe on hit...It's insane that we can hit an opponent and then be wide open to attacks like Ganondorf's and Bowser's forward smashes <_<

 

[meleebrawler]

Well, usmash only overshadowed utilt imo if you didn't use it for combos. If you did do those usmash combos it might be stale by the time kill percents come around. Utilt was my favorite move for Zelda in Brawl, cuz like..nobody knew it existed lmao. It killed really early at like 110% too and was a great antiair with somewhat quick startup. I'm glad it's been changed into a combo move tho

Oh, and Lightning Kicks? Umm, just make them like Melee or Project M, except don't make them stale eachother. I'd be fine with the ending lag if they revamped them like that.

P:M kicks are basically Melee and Brawl kicks mashed together (depends on which sweetspot you get) in
an environment that has L-canceling.

Whatever they may end up doing to kicks in the future, they'll probably make damn sure
that constantly threatening with kicks isn't a thing.

 

[BJN39]

P:M kicks are basically Melee and Brawl kicks mashed together (depends on which sweetspot you get) in
an environment that has L-canceling.

Whatever they may end up doing to kicks in the future, they'll probably make damn sure
that constantly threatening with kicks isn't a thing.

*sigh* I guess you don't know then that the devs of PM already scrapped the critical sweet-spot, in their latest update...

In return they became one cent closer to their Melee design, (the crazy large and strong sweet-spot) but still slightly weaker than Melee, but still very powerful.

 

[meleebrawler]

*sigh* I guess you don't know then that the devs of PM already scrapped the critical sweet-spot, in their latest update...

In return they became one cent closer to their Melee design, (the crazy large and strong sweet-spot) but still slightly weaker than Melee, but still very powerful.

I did not not know about that change, but I wasn't talking about P:M devs, rather Smash 4 devs.
I DID hear that they changed her Din's Fire, but how exactly I don't know either.

Smash 4 devs seem to have a design goal of "there can be no kill move without some risk".
In this they only really failed with Diddy Uair, but you get the idea. I wouldn't expect them to give
Zelda players the ability to make kicks safe themselves anytime soon.

 

[JayWon]

Zelda is fun to play but I do believe every Zelda mains has every right to complain (and very loudly complain) about her current toolkit. In terms of concept she is a lightweight / slow character supposedly trading off with (unreliable) "good" KO power. In summary, the "trade offs" move designs needs to be revisited with some major tweaking because with her current design it is impossible to justify especially when compared to all other characters.
I agree with OP. So many questions indeed. Free-fall after side-b... Why does her Down-B even get destroyed? Maybe make that move more dynamic where she can move out after Down-B while the purple mist containing the soldier is "planted" still floating there and Zelda can release it with another Down-B (similar to Duck Hunt Dog's Down-B). Give her Neutral B 100% super armor / invincibility / more priority at least. I mean why not? Pit's side-B has super armor that's MOVING. Overall not only are the moves slow, inconsistent with all the hitboxes, but all her moves are too similar (and too similarly bad) and serve the exact same purpose and hence she lacks any sort of dynamicness in her options. Sure all characters have potential but honestly, Zelda's potential ceiling is no where near transcendental (compared to Pikachu or Palutena + Lightweight). Idk make her more dynamic somehow? Maybe make her Up-B similar to Metaknight's Down-B, where she has the option to NOT put out her current hitbox but with SIGNIFICANTLY less lag (even less laggier than Palutena's warp). Why not? it would make her more magical if she can warp around crazy relatively unpunishable (Sonic essentially can do this). You think I'm going to hit you with Up-B? Nope gonna teleport behind you and grab you. Idk she needs more dynamic options to balance out her slow dash/walk at least.

YES. OF COURSE, I highly discourage people who immediately complain before learning and adapting... But guess what? Diddy Kong players can adapt to you adapting to them but with SUPERIOR TOOLS. How is Zelda supposed to readapt / keep up with the meta developing with her limited toolkits when 75% of her moves are outprioritized and unreliable and do the same thing?

I encourage every Zelda mains to complain LOUDLY and FEROCIOUSLY, anything that gets Sakurai's attention cuz this is borderline criminal.

 

[Gionni]

As someone that played Zelda in Brawl, I don't see much difference, but even if she got nerfed the mechanics of Smash 4 buff her a lot, the only thing is that up air killed sooner in Brawl, but who cares, now you can down throw to up b, and it's awesome

 

[Phenomiracle]

As someone that played Zelda in Brawl, I don't see much difference, but even if she got nerfed the mechanics of Smash 4 buff her a lot, the only thing is that up air killed sooner in Brawl, but who cares, now you can down throw to up b, and it's awesome

Upthrow to Farore's is a lot better.

Differences from Brawl are quite stark. I honestly can't imagine how you don't see them, but whatever.

 

[Lil Puddin]

As someone that played Zelda in Brawl, I don't see much difference, but even if she got nerfed the mechanics of Smash 4 buff her a lot, the only thing is that up air killed sooner in Brawl, but who cares, now you can down throw to up b, and it's awesome

Eh, she changed a lot.

Usmash is harder to land and takes longer to kill with.

Ftilt no longer sends opponents backwards, so it can kill now. (Buff)

Utilt is no longer a surprise kill move.

FW gets double ending lag, but can kill now.

Lkicks can't be spammed.

Naryu's love gets intangible frames and no longer sends opponents in the direction Zelda is facing. (Buff/semi nerf).

Dsmash has less kb and attack range.

Fsmash hits are very janky, but kill power is the same.

Dins are stronger, but now requires precise sweetspot hits and loses range vertically and horizontally.

Dair can now sweetspot on grounded opponents and is generally better.

Uair kb nerf, but it now has a semi-suction effect.

Phantom Knight, nerf as Sheilda, buff as Zelda... Kinda.

Zelda is different than in Brawl. She's no longer a "pls come over here slowly" kind of character. She's a camper punisher and can ruin your day with the best punish in this game, aside from Rest. She's like half Project M and half Brawl Zelda. So the differences should be easy to spot and even feel. She's actually viable, although still nowhere near top tier.

 

[Gionni]

Upthrow to Farore's is a lot better.

Differences from Brawl are quite stark. I honestly can't imagine how you don't see them, but whatever.

Maybe it's because I last played Brawl a long time ago, now I'm starting to see the changes, but I still think she's better here

 

[BJN39]

Uair kb nerf, but it now has a semi-suction effect.

This is entirely false, sorry. There's no bonus hit-boxes or extra data that gives it a suction effect.

Also iirc @ KuroganeHammer reported that there was actually a tiny KB INCREASE on Fsmash.

also adding since it wasn't listed there, FW's decreased startup duration and auto ledge-snap ability seriously improve her recovery.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The only thing about Zelda that got buffed was Farore's and dair. Everything else is literally a worse version of Brawl Zelda's move or ported directly from Brawl.

 

[Lil Puddin]

This is entirely false, sorry. There's no bonus hit-boxes or extra data that gives it a suction effect.

Also iirc @ KuroganeHammer reported that there was actually a tiny KB INCREASE on Fsmash.

also adding since it wasn't listed there, FW's decreased startup duration and auto ledge-snap ability seriously improve her recovery.

Hm, did Usmash's hitbox change at all then? It feels easier to hit with. Although takes longer to kill with which is... An odd choice given its overall speed. It could just as well be the new less floaty mechanics that helps too.

As for Fsmash, that's good. At least it has SOMETHING to make up for the easy to escape hits. I usually still only get kills with it around 100% without rage. But that may be because nearly all of Zeldoo's moves can be easily DI'd diagonally to escape death and smart people don't leave center stage vs Zeldoo. My Little Mac (Marcel/husbando) Amiibo likes to constantly remind me of the easiness by staying alive until about 150%.

 

[Macchiato]

The only thing about Zelda that got buffed was Farore's and dair. Everything else is literally a worse version of Brawl Zelda's move or ported directly from Brawl.

Does up taunt count?

Her grab and Dthrow were buffed. So yay

 

[Yorsh]

I don't really understand why you try to compare zelda in brawl and zelda in sm4sh. She was ridiculously weak offstage in brawl and now she is really strong offstage. So ofc pretty much every other attacks has been nerferd.

In sm4sh she is a weaker onstage, but she gets :
- one of the best meteor smash
- one of the best upB (kills at 70%, very good recovery)
- a really strong neutral B
- a downB which can force the opponant to recover lower than expected, so it makes the Dair easier to land.
Worth trade if you ask me.

 

[Lil Puddin]

Does up taunt count?

Her grab and Dthrow were buffed. So yay

Yes. Up taunt is Zeldoo summed up in 2 seconds. Sparkles. Magic. Faboolissness. 2op

As for the grab speed, it's slightly better and Dthrow is very nice. Especially because it lets you stall to come up with a good strategy. My fav is low % Dthrow near the edge, Bair, and then Phantom Knight to make them recover low or hit them again with his sword or Fair/Uair. Dair if they recover low or drop down Fair if they try to diagonally reach the ledge. It's very potent online and good offline if you don't do it every time your opponent is off stage.

I don't really understand why you try to compare zelda in brawl and zelda in sm4sh. She was ridiculously weak offstage in brawl and now she is really strong offstage. So ofc pretty much every other attacks has been nerferd.

In sm4sh she is a weaker onstage, but she gets :
- one of the best meteor smash
- one of the best upB (kills at 70%, very good recovery)
- a really strong neutral B
- a downB which can force the opponant to recover lower than expected, so it makes the Dair easier to land.
Worth trade if you ask me.

This guy gets it. There's a reason why this Zelda is more viable than Brawlda. Also, moves on paper/isolated are not the same as moves in game. Looking at Zeldoo's moves alone makes it easy to assume she is stiff and laggy. She kind of is if you spam Lkicks and smashes. But in the game she has a chilled out funky flow of faboolissness. Unfabulous people lack the ability to see Zelda's chilled out fabooliss groove. It's not their fault tho. *puts on wig to perform Zelda's classy hair flip*

 

[Crudedude]

Honestly when they reveal there will be no more shelda it was heartbreaking but when they show cased sheik's move it was like, "okay these moves are pretty op." and bouncing fish is sheik's butter and bread move that compliments her set very well and covers her in her area of low kill moves. But what did Zelda get? Another channeling projectile like seriously! seriously? In what way does phantom strike fit into zelda's theme or give her what she needs? "Ooo look out i'm standing still in front of you I like do with din's fire to send a projectile at you. Oooo." Lazy. If anything they should've given zelda Hylia's harp, would fit the theme better. But enough of her down b. Zelda in general is better in smash 4 because she's not so dead in the air so there are reason now to jump other than to move, nair or uair. Also her moves (most of them) are faster which is what zelda needed. However I wonder why they nerf her down smash for it was prefect in brawl but that goes for her smash in general. it's like when developer came to zelda they said "***** please."

 

[Phenomiracle]

Worth trade if you ask me.

Except there shouldn't have been any tradeoffs in the first place.

Zelda should have only received buffs; there's literally no way to argue otherwise. The nerfs are all indefensible.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I like how all the other Zelda characters had all of their problems fixed with a ton of buffs and nearly no nerfs but Zelda received a few buffs, a ton of nerfs, and none of her problems fixed. She definitely needed buffs and no nerfs.

 

[Macchiato]

I like how all the other Zelda characters had all of their problems fixed with a ton of buffs and nearly no nerfs but Zelda received a few buffs, a ton of nerfs, and none of her problems fixed. She definitely needed buffs and no nerfs.

Yeah but the buffs were big. The nerfs were small.

 

[Brinzy]

USmash nerf wasn't small.

Din's nerf wasn't small (although lolDin's).

Nair nerf wasn't small.

Most of the others, sure. Small or not however, they shouldn't have happened just so they could justify Farore's.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Nayru's tho?

pretty much brawl naryu's with -4% damage and doesn't send people only forward

 

[Brinzy]

I don't really understand why you try to compare zelda in brawl and zelda in sm4sh. She was ridiculously weak offstage in brawl and now she is really strong offstage. So ofc pretty much every other attacks has been nerferd.

In sm4sh she is a weaker onstage, but she gets :
- one of the best meteor smash
- one of the best upB (kills at 70%, very good recovery)
- a really strong neutral B
- a downB which can force the opponant to recover lower than expected, so it makes the Dair easier to land.
Worth trade if you ask me.

I didn't see this earlier.

Her off-stage game is not that improved. I keep reading about this, but I don't understand where it comes from. Whenever I went off stage after an opponent in Brawl, I always made sure I could make it back anyway. It is easier to recover, but it isn't any easier to aggressively keep opponents from recovering.

Her aerials function exactly the same but do less damage overall, and Phantom off stage is not good, no matter how often I see Zelda players using it. It's slow, it's easily telegraphed, and it only works on really awful/predictable recoveries in very specific scenarios.

It absolutely does not warrant the nerfs she got. Why did all the other low tiers get wide buffs across the boards with few to no nerfs while Zelda literally got like six big nerfs for a new (mediocre) down B and kill power on Up B? Sure, her recovery was massively improved, but so was everyone else's.

Zelda has heavyweight characteristics across the board without any of the benefits of a heavyweight. She's still light. Her kill potential is still shaky. She doesn't actually have good aerials like all the other heavyweights. She can't force approaches, deter against shielding, or approach like literally every other heavyweight. I guess she can recover better than most heavyweights though, oh boy.

The character is garbage. I love her, but she's absolute garbage and has had nothing going for her for nearly 15 years now. If this game lasts another 6 years, make that 21. 21 years of being terrible. Internalize that for a moment.

 

[Yorsh]

Well, I guess it depends of the matchup, the skill of the players involved etc.

In brawl, I played mostly against a better player than me, who mains MK and Marth. Against those characters, it's basically a suicide to follow them offstage with zelda (safe upB, will most likely send you under the stage). Even against other characters, I believe that it's really risky : a single random hit can end your stock if it sends you in a bad spot for up B (then or you can't make it back because you are under the stage, or the guy grab the ledge before you do so and you are ****ed). Moreover, if you fail, the guy will most likely come back on stage before you (because the up B in Brawl is really slow), and I guess we agree to say that she is really easy to edge guard in Brawl.
Let's say you won't get hit and you won't fail, you still have to be carefull to not go by yourself somewhere you will have troubles to recover from, and your opponant knows that, so it's easy for him to anticipate your movements.

On the other hand in sm4sh, as you said it's easier to come back on stage. You can basically go where you want, you will still be able to upB safely and grab the edge (and he can't steal it from you). It allows you to be less predicatble with your offstage game, and you can get hit without dying.
About the DownB, my way to use it is to create a wall in front of the edge (I use it from the stage, and I don't try to hit the guy with it, I just want the soldier to be there) so the guy can't go through it. This way he is easier to spike (because it limits his options). You can also use it against some UpB (still from the stage), when they try to come back from the low/side, they can't go through it so they can't grab the ledge (works really well against link, shulk etc.).

In a game where it's hard to end a stock early, if you have one of the safest upB and one of the best spike, you are really scary offstage imo : one spike can win the game.

 

[Fujon]

pretty much brawl naryu's with -4% damage and doesn't send people only forward

This one actually hits people in the air though.

 

[BJN39]

This one actually hits people in the air though.

H-hold on, your account's posts were spam cleaned by someone (couldn't find your posts here and in the social.) but you weren't banneT??

 

[KuroganeHammer]

H-hold on, your account's posts were spam cleaned by someone (couldn't find your posts here and in the social.) but you weren't banneT??

They probably didn't click the bank checkbox cuz bad

This one actually hits people in the air though.

I guesssssssss

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

The more I think about it, and more I think that Zelda's aerial game works a lot better with Melee's airdodge mechanics.

I don't think we should go back to that, but at least to the "one dodge per jump" thing. Being helpless is stupidly punishing (same goes for Din), but you wouldn't see people dodging indefinitely until they touch the ground, at least.

Anyway, Zelda sure isn't suited for the 1vs1 competitive side, but I don't see her awful just because of that side of the game. Her only real problem to me is her approach, and she obviously is difficult to play because of the precision needed.

This and escapable smashes, of course. Still a shame. And Din's freefall.

 

[Brinzy]

Well, I guess it depends of the matchup, the skill of the players involved etc.

If we're talking Zelda on stage vs. them off stage, then I agree wholeheartedly that she's pretty strong here. Once her opponent is in a bad position, it's very dangerous for them to make a mistake.

I guess what I am trying to say here is the same things that could kill her in Brawl (an early Up B from certain characters hitting her, someone with better aerials that can basically recover at any time, etc) can still kill her here. You're just less likely to run into that issue because the majority of the strong characters this time around don't have Metaknight's Up B... so in a way you are correct.

 

[Fujon]

H-hold on, your account's posts were spam cleaned by someone (couldn't find your posts here and in the social.) but you weren't banneT??

Even Red Tyrants show sympathy sometimes.

 

[DNeon]

Just for reference, would pretty much everybody be onbaord with removal of freefall from Din's?

And would Zelda be better off with just a different down B or being able to charge Phantom?

 

[Brinzy]

There's literally no reason her Side B should put her in freefall. It's a laggy attack that wouldn't break the game anyway. Besides, say if she could do this... you could use Din's Blaze to cover a safe area for her to get back to the stage. I think it would legitimately be a much better edgeguard than off-stage Phantom if it didn't put her in freefall.

That and I hate how my fat fingers cause me to Din's instead of Farore's.

I think her current down B is lackluster, but a redesign of the ability would still do her a lot of good. If it somehow actually forced approaches, that would massively improve her gameplay by 1) having a threatening projectile, 2) having something that actually protects her, and 3) having something that forces the enemy to approach a certain way so she can actually use her defensive options.

These two changes - plus a redesign on fair to make it semi-decent for approaching and some more speed - would be enough. Project M style Zelda would be the best bet, but I could settle for small changes.

 

[PUK]

Let's imagine a phantom which travel all the stage, and the longer you charge, the faster it is. It wouldn't be gamebreaking and not illogic too as a minion should do that at least. And mechakoopa are not op

 

[DNeon]

I think her current down B is lackluster, but a redesign of the ability would still do her a lot of good. If it somehow actually forced approaches, that would massively improve her gameplay by 1) having a threatening projectile, 2) having something that actually protects her, and 3) having something that forces the enemy to approach a certain way so she can actually use her defensive options.

What if instead of swiping upwards in an uppercut motion the phantom swung downwards and a bit behind, like a Marth fair that pushed backwards if hit a certain way. I know conceptualising these changes is stupid, since it wouldn't happen, but would that fix it?

Let's imagine a phantom which travel all the stage, and the longer you charge, the faster it is. It wouldn't be gamebreaking and not illogic too as a minion should do that at least. And mechakoopa are not op

Given the size, how does one dodge it? Do Zelda's all then just not charge it and walk behind the massive slow moving "hitbox" to frame trap opponents? I don't know how this would work

 

[PUK]

Well you have a thing with 13hp: destroy it without commit is really easy for a big part of the cast. You can Shield the hit and still be able to escape Zelda attack, but the point is it pressures , and Zelda don't have tool to do that.

 

[Zylach]

Just for reference, would pretty much everybody be onbaord with removal of freefall from Din's?

And would Zelda be better off with just a different down B or being able to charge Phantom?

In all honesty, if Din's didn't put Zelda in freefall, she would be better. Granted, Din's isn't a great move anyway but just removing that fixes so many problems like accidentally using Din's offstage which happens more often than it should I feel. It would probably remain an edgeguarding mechanic though since using it onstage against an onstage opponent rarely gets Zelda any advantage, in fact, it usually gets her into a disadvantageous position because the opponent closes distance and/or punishes the wicked endlag.

What I think would make Zelda a legitimate mid/high tier threat would be if she could store phantom and use it whenever. Very few characters have moves that require charging in one spot and auto-releasing a mid-range projectile. The only other examples I can think of are Megaman's fsmash and Ness' PK flash. MM's fully charged fsmash charges for the same amount of time as a fully charged phantom (I believe, I haven't tested this) but goes farther and has significantly more kill potential. He might have the same amount of endlag as Zelda does on phantom as well. Meanwhile, Ness' PK flash goes a longer distance as well, has significantly more kill potential and less endlag I believe. Phantom is honestly mediocre at best but being able to store it makes it infinitely more useful and not broken at all. If a store-able fully charged phantom seems broken, than so is a fully charged charge beam, and thoron, and aura sphere. Besides all those attacks are long range projectiles and can't be killed by attacking them effectively making them better than a store-able phantom. I honestly don't see a problem here.

 

[PUK]

It would make Zelda mid tier, and it would wreak havoc. Even palutena the goddess of light would be powerless in front of this calamity.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Making the Phantom storable would honestly help her so much. I'm sure this isn't something too hard for the developers to do, so maybe it could be patched in in the future...? #optimism

 

[Zylach]

Store-able phantom #PetitionSakurai