I question the developers testing regarding Zelda.

[Smashfan61]

This may sound irrelevant, but for some reason I just felt like giving out my opinions on this. As a fan of Zelda herself and Zelda being a Secondary main of mine It really saddens me why she got nerfed in this game. As bad as she was in Brawl she had potential. Nair was one of the best attacks Imo, Dtilt was fun to abuse people who walk into and lock them. Even her Smash attacks were decent. It's sad how they nerfed a character with such potential. U smash - this move went from being one of her best moves to being terrible.

I mean they manage to make Dins Fire, DINS FIRE of all things useless! How do you make a useless move more useless? :/ I just don't even know how they came up with that idea. >_>

As bad as she was, she had potential to improve. The only buff she got it looks like were her Farore's Wind, Nayru's Love Her grab is faster and Dair. Don't get me wrong in the right hands she's deadly, but still.

I even feel the Piviot grabbing range was only nerfed because she benefited from it the most. It's like they want Zelda to suck on purpose.

She's been a badly designed character in 3 games in a row. Even Link was buffed in this game. I could also argue Gannondorf in some areas. The fact that they looked at Brawl Zelda and thought she needed Nerfing makes me wonder what kind of balance testing they did for this game. Not to say the game isn't balanced, but really? Nerfing a suffering character just questions the methods of the testing that went through. Worst than Brawl Zelda in her current state, and this is the last thing I would have thought or wanted to happen to her.

And no, I'm not going to change her or anything. I stick with my characters regardless of positions. But still it's really kind of upsetting. What do you guys think am I overreacting or what? Love to hear opinions.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

It's probably because the game isn't just balanced for 1vs1 tournaments.

For sure, she's always been bad in tournament level duels, her design is totally not for this. But she can make some great damages in Free for All, and her reflect becomes obviously more important with items on.
In the case of Din's Fire, the explosion radius may be smaller, but the sweetspot makes it more rewarding.

Basically, I find her better, despite the Up-Smash and the D-tilt (I never was a fan of spamming it anyway), probably because her style suits me even more this style.

Personally, she shines in 2vs2.

 

[Smashfan61]

It's probably because the game isn't just balanced for 1vs1 tournaments.

For sure, she's always been bad in tournament level duels, her design is totally not for this. But she can make some great damages in Free for All, and her reflect becomes obviously more important with items on.
In the case of Din's Fire, the explosion radius may be smaller, but the sweetspot makes it more rewarding.

Basically, I find her better, despite the Up-Smash and the D-tilt (I never was a fan of spamming it anyway), probably because her style suits me even more this style.

Personally, she shines in 2vs2.

I do agree with your statement. I myself get a blast out of playing her in 2v2. However I think that her options shouldn't limit her to just that. It's like she needs a sidekick other wise she's ****ed.

I just wish she had a balance in both, make her weaknesses like being slow and such apply, but give her options that benefit her defensive style.
And the whole sweetspot on Dins Fire I find debatable. While you can get kills if a Cpus runs into it or someone literally walks into it or had poor spot and air dodges, if someone can do all of those perfectly what use does it have? It's too slow and predictable to force approaches, if she's attack with a fast moving projectile say like Pit's Arrows or Sheik's Needles, the move is useless and leaves her open. It also has poor control and makes her helpless in the air.

But that's just my opinion, don't get me wrong I agree with you. But still.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Helplessness in the air is a stupid design choice, I agree. And Mii Gunner's Stealth Bomb have the same problem, so it's not just "we forgot about it".

Zelda is the opportunistic queen of situational moves. Nayru, Din, Farore, Phantom, Lighting Kicks... They are all great IMO but dependant on a good read and situations. Farore against someone charging a laggy projectile, Din's during a recovery, Nayru to punish roll spammers... ect.

To be fair, this is the point of view of a Smash Bros lover, but who will never play too seriously on tournament level. And a low tier lover (not especially in Smash: characters I love in fighting games tends to be low tier. But again, at my level, it doesn't mean that much)

 

[CommanderPepper]

What I want to know is how Zelda's f smash got past QA testing. It seems really obvious that the move does not function normally and yet it is still dysfunctional from time to time after the patch.

 

[ZombieBran]

What I want to know is how Zelda's f smash got past QA testing. It seems really obvious that the move does not function normally and yet it is still dysfunctional from time to time after the patch.

Meanwhile Link's got fixed.

I am starting to think that Zelda and DH were purposely designed with crappy smashes. After all, Samus' literally broken combo was intentional.

 

[Smashfan61]

Helplessness in the air is a stupid design choice, I agree. And Mii Gunner's Stealth Bomb have the same problem, so it's not just "we forgot about it".

Zelda is the opportunistic queen of situational moves. Nayru, Din, Farore, Phantom, Lighting Kicks... They are all great IMO but dependant on a good read and situations. Farore against someone charging a laggy projectile, Din's during a recovery, Nayru to punish roll spammers... ect.

To be fair, this is the point of view of a Smash Bros lover, but who will never play too seriously on tournament level. And a low tier lover (not especially in Smash: characters I love in fighting games tends to be low tier. But again, at my level, it doesn't mean that much)

Yeah I can totally get where you're coming from. I'm not competitive level either. I'm training to be. And I still like Zelda yes, her being a main will not change. Though Pikachu, Pit and Shulk are my primary mains. I'm more of just frustrated with the treatment of her character. Especially since she has potential.

I don't mind Zelda have situational moves, just I don't think her entire moveset should be based around it. Naryu's Love was always one of her better moves that's good to use. And her Lightning Kicks should only be Bair and Fair should work in a different way. Kind of odd two of her ariels has the same utility.

 

[Smashfan61]

What I want to know is how Zelda's f smash got past QA testing. It seems really obvious that the move does not function normally and yet it is still dysfunctional from time to time after the patch.

Her F Smash was fine, it just need a bigger blast radius or bigger range. But now how did the idea come to make people randomly fall out of it? :/

 

[Toroth]

I agree with what you said, it is sad that she's worse than she was in brawl

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Yeah I can totally get where you're coming from. I'm not competitive level either. I'm training to be. And I still like Zelda yes, her being a main will not change. Though Pikachu, Pit and Shulk are my primary mains. I'm more of just frustrated with the treatment of her character. Especially since she has potential.

I don't mind Zelda have situational moves, just I don't think her entire moveset should be based around it. Naryu's Love was always one of her better moves that's good to use. And her Lightning Kicks should only be Bair and Fair should work in a different way. Kind of odd two of her ariels has the same utility.

Personnally, she will always be my primary main. Robin and Ganondorf comes after that. Because I love mages, it's simple as that.

Her moves are probably why her gameplay is suited to me. She clearly isn't a character easy to use at first, and through the situational aspect, there's some versatility.
Of course, what Zelda really lack is speed, and this alone makes her going down in the tier list.

About Fair and Bair, they may be both hard to connect correctly, but it makes her kinda dangerous, no matter what direction she is going. I actually like it. I wonder why Bair is faster though...

 

[Darklightjg1]

She's a very read-heavy character. My problem (besides people randomly falling out of the smashes which should be fixed, no question) is when you're behind and pretty much have to approach, but the opponent doesn't have to worry about any of your zoning tools. If her side B or down B specials were at least non-committal like some other characters' specials, I think she'd have a better time fighting overall.

 

[Phenomiracle]

I wonder why Bair is faster though...

For her Fair, she spins herself once before kicking with her left boot.

For her Bair, she just thrusts her right boot as hard as she can behind her.

 

[Smashfan61]

She's a very read-heavy character. My problem (besides people randomly falling out of the smashes which should be fixed, no question) is when you're behind and pretty much have to approach, but the opponent doesn't have to worry about any of your zoning tools. If her side B or down B specials were at least non-committal like some other characters' specials, I think she'd have a better time fighting overall.

I don't mind the fact she's a read heavy character. I just hate how her moves don't compliment that. And I agree. Imagine her Side Special working like Ness PK Thunder where you can harass people with it and move while doing so while adding maybe the explosion. Idk, it's just a nice thought. lol And Down B was a very great idea, I just wish it didn't have to be charged to get full use out of it. It should have full range with the whole Phantom attacking and the sword tip for Shield pressure or something. That's just my opinion.

And I agree with your statement.

 

[Zylach]

As a Zelda main since Brawl and one that participated with her in local tournaments (I'm in Wisconsin where they are almost non-existent) I can say that Zelda wasn't nerfed from Brawl to Sm4sh. Her playstyle has changed somewhat and I feel like she works better in the new engine than she did in brawl. That said, I'm not expecting to see her at the top of any tier list ever and that's fine with me. I do agree with several points that have been made here though. Din's is definitely next to useless in 1v1's. I've been able to get kills with it (something I did extremely rarely in brawl might I add) when hitting an opponent as they land or when they are recovering (I'll usually throw out phantom then use Din's if they're still offstage).

The fact that Zelda's grab was strengthened from Brawl instantly makes her a better character. In brawl, her grab game was non-existent because she couldn't catch anyone before they were gone. Now, she can actually shield-grab effectively adding to her OoS options and giving her a small combo game. I also agree that usmash is basically garbage now. I used to use usmash OoS all the time in brawl and will only use it now if I'm ABSOLUTELY certain I'll hit with it when using fsmash would be slightly too risky (getting a read on someone getting up from the ledge for instance. It'll catch jumps and simple get-ups and should end before a roll can be acted out of, beware the ledge hop though).

Yes, she is a read heavy character especially in getting kills. This is something that she struggles with because she either has to get a hard read on the opponent (fsmash, usmash, FW) or get a hard read on the opponent WHILE being pinpoint accurate (fair, bair, dair, uair). Zelda is a difficult character to play well and that's part of the reason people consider her "low tier." Yes, I'd like it if her phantom was storable, yes I'd like it if she had guaranteed combos into kills, yes I'd like it if she couldn't be juggled so easily. However, she does make up for several of her weaknesses (something all characters have btw and something Sakurai intended to juggle with strengths in development) with tremendous strengths. While it is difficult to land a killing blow, killing blows come earlier for Zelda than other characters. Zelda has one of the best recoveries in the game thanks to the new ledge mechanics. Her OoS game is really good and rollers beware of her multihit arsenal. Zelda isn't a standard character to play effectively and I think that's where some of the hate stems from. I still can't use several characters because I've become so adapted to Zelda's playstyle (Even "high tier," "easy to play characters" like Yoshi and Lucario feel so awkward to me and I flail around like a 5 year old using them).

I had been struggling to understand how Zelda could get out of low tier in this game until a few days ago when I started playing her a little differently (I literally talk out loud to myself about what the opponent is doing and how I ought to be challenging what they're doing) and I can actually see her being middle tier in this game. Ultimately, I feel like she can still be a threat to the upper tiers which, I believe, is a testament to Sakurai's focus on balance in this game. She just needs a non-standard point of view perhaps.

Sorry about the length of this. I'm a passionate Zelda player and have been a supporter of her not being low tier for a long time so I feel like I have a lot to say on this subject.

 

[Meru.]

What I hate is that people just seem to be getting out of Up B randomly. Even if I hit with the first hit, they can often still DI to the sides and avoid the second hit. Now, I'm pretty sure my opponents are not DI'ing away on purpose, but instead just happen to keep their control stick to the left or the right. However, if DI'ing away from the second hit does become a thing (and if you can indeed escape from the second hit by merely DI'ing, it likely will become a thing), it will be desastrous. Her strongest option, and probably the only reason she isn't complete garbage, will not only be taken away from her, but even if you hit with the first it you may even get punished for it.

As for those who say you can follow their DI and teleport into them, I wish you good luck. Hitconfirming Farore's Wind is already very hard since you have to react quickly depending on whether you hit them with your first hit or not. If you not only have to react to that, but also follow their DI and then teleport correctly according to their DI... that's very close to impossible for someone with a human reaction time, if not just impossible.

Edit: wow my grammar was ********

 

[Meek Moths]

What I hate is that people just seem to be getting out of Up B randomly. Even if I hit with the first hit, they can often still DI to the sides and avoid the second hit. Now, I'm pretty sure my opponents are not DI'ing away on purposing, but instead just happen to keep their control stick to the left or the right. However, if DI'ing away from the second hit does become a thing (and if you can indeed escape from the second hit by merely DI'ing, it likely will become a thing), it will be desastrous. Her strongest option, and probably the only reason she isn't completely will not only be taken away from her, but even if you hit with the first it you may even get punished with it.

meh, i never really liked the farore ladder combo and im still not able to incorporate it into my playstyle. it's very risk vs reward so i do it only when im 100% sure it's gonna land, and even then i would rather opt for more reliable ways to kill.

im not saying it's bad but if you dont do it you're not really at disadvantage

 

[ZombieBran]

im not saying it's bad but if you dont do it you're not really at disadvantage

tbh you are. It's her earliest kill outside of charged broken shield punish smashes (which never happen) or offstage bair/fair/dair.

Opponent hit your shield unsafely? FW OOS BOOM DEAD.

 

[Zylach]

You're definitely at a disadvantage if Farore's Elevator isn't utilized. At the very least, the threat of it should be there so the opponent clams up when they're above 70% knowing that the next hit could be a killing blow. The fact that it's DI-able makes it a lot less respectable as a weapon for Zelda and also means she can't get the ludicrously early kills that make her so powerful in this game. Tbh, the later in the game's life, the worse it will get for this move. Considering it was designed specifically with this function in mind, the fact that it will become obsolete because it doesn't perform it's main function is really sad. If I had the reaction time to read and change direction into the opponent's DI, I wouldn't be agreeing with the others on this point but I'm human. It takes some inhuman reaction time to catch an opponent's DI out of FW1. It wouldn't be so bad if we could get a pattern down. Are they DI'ing only left when I hit confirm FW1? Then, I'll just aim left. This can't happen because if we miss FW2 even once, the punishment is so high, it's not worth the risk. I've been utilizing it less and less since the Wii U release. Still works great on noobs though

 

[Gay Ginger]

I just fought a bunch of matches against a pretty good Shulk on FG and he escaped the Elevator 3/4 times I managed to land FW1

 

[Meek Moths]

i prefer to not take the risk and im completely fine with it

 

[Potpourri]

Brawlda + SSB4 buffed recovery + SSB4 Farores shenanigans + any other buffs she got in this game = Solid Mid Tier Character imo

Is that too much to ask for?

 

[Gay Ginger]

Brawlda + SSB4 buffed recovery + SSB4 Farores shenanigans + any other buffs she got in this game = Solid Mid Tier Character imo

Is that too much to ask for?

Evidently, yes.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

For her Fair, she spins herself once before kicking with her left boot.

For her Bair, she just thrusts her right boot as hard as she can behind her.

zelda used to just lift her heel back for Bair now she does this weird pelvic thrust as hard as she can behind her for Bair now...no wonder it lags severly...

 

[Phenomiracle]

zelda used to just lift her heel back for Bair now she does this weird pelvic thrust as hard as she can behind her for Bair now...no wonder it lags severly...

I mean, the need for the pelvic thrust makes sense from a physical perspective.

Lag still isn't justified. If Zelda is able to draw herself in and thrust out for a kick in only 6 frames, there's no reason she need 25 frames to recover.

Twenty-five mothertrucking frames. Give me a break.

 

[BJN39]

I mean, the need for the pelvic thrust makes sense from a physical perspective.

Lag still isn't justified. If Zelda is able to draw herself in and thrust out for a kick in only 6 frames, there's no reason she need 25 frames to recover.

Twenty-five mothertrucking frames. Give me a break.

Actually, it's 43 frames, AT THE LEAST.

 

[*JuriHan*]

Every1 moaning about her f-smash but for me it's her f-tilt that infuriates me... the dead zone when I miss potential KOs and her arm goes right through my opponent how does that even get past QA smh.

 

[Meek Moths]

Every1 moaning about her f-smash but for me it's her f-tilt that infuriates me... the dead zone when I miss potential KOs and her arm goes right through my opponent how does that even get past QA smh.

this might me just my feeling but i feel it's fixed in the wii u version

 

[CommanderPepper]

The problem is that this game has is that there are over 50 characters. Each of these characters need to be tested. This means to test all of their moves and special moves. Not to mention all the other content in the game. I think the dev didn't have enough time/resources to test everything in the game.

 

[Gay Ginger]

this might me just my feeling but i feel it's fixed in the wii u version

Sadly, it is not. I only have the Wii U version and I've noticed its dead zone. We can hope they fix it with a patch, but I'm not holding my breath for any improvements to Zelda...

 

[ZombieBran]

Fsmash is more rage inducing because it's unreliably unreliable. Ftilt's dead zone is constant (and on the Wii U version)

The problem is that this game has is that there are over 50 characters. Each of these characters need to be tested. This means to test all of their moves and special moves. Not to mention all the other content in the game. I think the dev didn't have enough time/resources to test everything in the game.

They definitely had the resources =P

 

[Phenomiracle]

There quite a few attacks in this game that have inexplicable dead zones.

Hell, Little Mac's Fsmash has one right in front of him.

 

[ZombieBran]

There quite a few attacks in this game that have inexplicable dead zones.

Hell, Little Mac's Fsmash has one right in front of him.

They wanted to clean up the hitboxes I guess.
Which is okay but then they make stuff like Diddy and it's just silly.

 

[Lavani]

After finding out today that Greninja's dead zones are Z axis related, I think that might be the case for certain other characters too.

But I'm too lazy to look into it myself.

EDIT: Just kidding ftilt still has a blind spot on Flat Zone

 

[Smashfan61]

Sadly, it is not. I only have the Wii U version and I've noticed its dead zone. We can hope they fix it with a patch, but I'm not holding my breath for any improvements to Zelda...

Me either. It's sad, Zelda actually had a lot of potential despite her abysmal position. Now they won't even care unless it's important. Which in Zelda's case I don't see. :/

 

[Zylach]

It's funny we bring up the dead zone in ftilt because quite a few characters have dead zones. I play Ike every now and again and his ftilt has a dead zone too though this is not a problem as often as Zelda's ftilt is. I was considering why they wouldn't fix something so simple and comparable to something they've already fixed: Metaknight's visuals. The whole reason they changed Metaknight's visuals was because the visuals didn't match the actual hitboxes (and, consequently, our expectations) which led to whiffed attacks. The same thing is happening to characters with these dead zones and the same logic should be applied to these circumstances, the visuals don't match our expectations.

So, why fix Metaknight and not these other characters that have the same problem? The only real difference is, instead of fixing the visuals to match the hitboxes (which, in this case, would essentially be removing Zelda's arm entirely), they would just have to extend the hitbox to include her arm because, let's face it, the magic hurts, but being clothes-lined hurts too. I've become wary about using this move for fear of it whiffing when the opponent is clearly supposed to get hit and that takes away a reliable late percent kill move.

Sakurai said he won't release patches except for big problem fixes. He should notice all these little problems and call it one big problem and just release a patch to fix these things, no balance patches, no content patches, just give us a polished game is all I ask.

 

[ZombieBran]

After finding out today that Greninja's dead zones are Z axis related, I think that might be the case for certain other characters too.

But I'm too lazy to look into it myself.

EDIT: Just kidding ftilt still has a blind spot on Flat Zone

I've seen enough sad Marths to know about the Z axis in Smash.

Didn't think about Flat Zone, whoa.

 

[Meru.]

Sigh...

Say farewell to Zelda's only good move.

 

[BJN39]

Sigh...

Say farewell to Zelda's only good move.

I actually didn't get the point you were trying to make with this vid, (It didn't load up to a time, if it was supposed to?) lol. Mind elaborating on what move you meant?

 

[Phenomiracle]

I actually didn't get the point you were trying to make with this vid, (It didn't load up to a time, if it was supposed to?) lol. Mind elaborating on what move you meant?

Elevator. Dabuz DIed Nairo's first hit well enough to miss the reappearance's hitbox. Had he landed it, Nairo would have won and the set would have gone to a Game 3. Zelda taking a game off of Rosalina in any competitive set is worth watching and studying (then again, Nairo's Zelda is worth studying regardless).

Something still tells me that DI could be reacted to in time to land the second hit. I'm going to try this with my fiancee later this week.

 

[Gay Ginger]

I actually didn't get the point you were trying to make with this vid, (It didn't load up to a time, if it was supposed to?) lol. Mind elaborating on what move you meant?

It's Rosalina DI'ing and avoiding the 2nd hit from the Elevator

Edit: Phenomiracle beat me to it lol