I play this character exclusively because people say she sucks.

[LightLV]

I mean, Marth does seem to have better frame data on his aerials, he has better range, and the tipper means he easily KOs better than she does in most situations, even by accident.

My only drive to play Lucina is because she effectively seems worse than Marth. Everytime i lose a close match at high percents, I wish i was playing marth because i'd have probably won.

 

[LIQUID12A]

There is a difference between "she sucks" and "she's outclassed".

If she sucked, very few would play her because she sucked. But as a slightly downgraded clone of what is a good character, she doesn't exactly qualify for suck status unless the original character is similarly bad.

The term I'd use, as said above, is outclassed. Marth is undoubtedly better at damage dealing with the tipper and all that, which Lucina falters in.

Thus, outclassed. I won't try and convince you, but this is how I see it.

 

[LightLV]

Actually, that's pretty sound logic, you're right. Outclassed is a better term. I wouldn't play her at all if i actually think she sucked. I still generally win more than i lose using her.

I guess a better rephrase would be, 'I only play this character to find a strength she has that Marth doesn't'. Which i assume is supposed to be reliability. Hopefully she sees some improvements in a balance patch.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Just to add on to my point, a comparison of "suck" vs "outclassed".

>

Pikachu and Pichu in Melee. The difference is very clear. Pichu deals damage to itself and is weaker than Pikachu despite having a few solid niches in agility, some KO power and shorter landing lag. A clear example of suck.

>

Marth and Lucina in Smash 4. Marth has the tipper for extra damage and safer attacks on shield, while Lucina has consistent damage on all parts of her sword and a very slightly smaller hitbox due to her height. These traits are very much inferior to Marth, but by themselves, still make Lucina a solid character for inexperienced players or those not willing to commit to hitting the tip of a virtual sword(like me). An example of outclassed.

Just getting it clearer in case you may have needed it.

 

[IzE]

But they both can be Great Lords *shot*

 

[Beast Boy]

I mean, Marth does seem to have better frame data on his aerials, he has better range, and the tipper means he easily KOs better than she does in most situations, even by accident.

My only drive to play Lucina is because she effectively seems worse than Marth. Everytime i lose a close match at high percents, I wish i was playing marth because i'd have probably won.

Marth and Lucina's frame data is exactly the same, their range is also pretty much the same. Marth can hit slightly higher above his head because he is taller than Lucina but it's the same in comparison to their height. This also gives Lucina the benefit of being slightly harder to hit with some moves as her hurtbox isn't quite as high.

As for KO's: On the edge Marth's tippered forward smash will kill at about 60% against most characters and his non-tipper will kill at about 100%, whereas Lucina's forward smash will kill at about a flat 80% no matter what part of the blade you hit with. The same goes for damage on normal attacks, it goes Marth's tipper > Lucina's attacks > Marth's non-tipper. It's physically possible to kill with Marth at lower percentages than Lucina, but no matter how good of a player you are you can never have absolutely perfect spacing. That means you can never be guaranteed to hit a tipper. (I also think Lucina's counter hits a bit harder but not 100% on that)

In a game where both of these characters have little to no combos I actually think Lucina is slightly better. The only way to kill with either characters is through hard reads and punishing unsafe attacks/rolls and getting these kills are easier and more reliable with Lucina. You'll also probably rack up more damage with her naturally as most attacks you do won't be tippers. Marth may have an advantage on some stages depending on platform height because of his slightly higher reach and I do find his meteor smash a little easier to hit but I still think Lucina is better.

 

[Moydow]

Marth's un-tippered hits are safer on shield though, so if you really are getting more non-tippers than tippers, that alone should make Marth better. What this means is, if your attack gets shielded by an opponent, Marth after a non-tippered hit can act faster than Lucina, 100% of the time, due to having less hit-lag. If it takes Lucina longer to act out of a blocked move, that gives the opponent more time to punish than they would have against Marth.

http://smashboards.com/threads/before-you-ask-the-differences-between-marth-and-lucina.376180/

4. Lucina does not have hitlag modifiers on her attacks while Marth does.
You can read up a proper explanation elsewhere, but in short Marth's sourspot attacks are made safer on shield due to a modifier that Lucina does not have, negating her extra damage advantage that would otherwise equate to more safety. Marth's sweetspot attacks are modified negatively for him, but the higher damage and shield knock back difference is pretty noticeable, still resulting in tippers/sweetspots being safer on shields than Lucina spacing at the same distance. The difference may not seem massive, 2-3 frames extra disadvantage for Lucina over Marth's sourspots, but that can be the difference between winning and losing.
Lucina is not easier to be aggressive with for this very reason.

It's not all about racking up damage, you know.
Besides, if you are playing Marth, with enough practice you will eventually begin to land more tippers (though I agree you're not going to tipper 100% of the time), and tippers are pretty damn strong in this game. And the ability to get kills so much earlier means the (potentially) slower rate of damage build-up is mostly a non-issue. Why would you want to bother getting the opponent up to 80+%, when you can kill them with a tipper at 60% and be done with it?

 

[Robertman2]

Marth's un-tippered hits are safer on shield though, so if you really are getting more non-tippers than tippers, that alone should make Marth better. What this means is, if your attack gets shielded by an opponent, Marth after a non-tippered hit can act faster than Lucina, 100% of the time, due to having less hit-lag. If it takes Lucina longer to act out of a blocked move, that gives the opponent more time to punish than they would have against Marth.

http://smashboards.com/threads/before-you-ask-the-differences-between-marth-and-lucina.376180/


It's not all about racking up damage, you know.
Besides, if you are playing Marth, with enough practice you will eventually begin to land more tippers (though I agree you're not going to tipper 100% of the time), and tippers are pretty damn strong in this game. And the ability to get kills so much earlier means the (potentially) slower rate of damage build-up is mostly a non-issue. Why would you want to bother getting the opponent up to 80+%, when you can kill them with a tipper at 60% and be done with it?

Because there's quite a bit of luck in tippers. Lucina is more reliable.

 

[Moydow]

Because there's quite a bit of luck in tippers. Lucina is more reliable.

That's not how it works. Lucina's "most optimal" play style is identical to Marth's: space out the opponent and keep them at sword's length away. Essentially, you're trying to keep them at what is Marth's tipper range. The difference between their swords means that while Lucina will punish you less for bad spacing, Marth rewards you far more for good spacing. So if you're playing Lucina "correctly", you will almost certainly have better luck with Marth, simply because tippers. It's not luck, it's skill.

 

[Robertman2]

That's not how it works. Lucina's "most optimal" play style is identical to Marth's: space out the opponent and keep them at sword's length away. Essentially, you're trying to keep them at what is Marth's tipper range. The difference between their swords means that while Lucina will punish you less for bad spacing, Marth rewards you far more for good spacing. So if you're playing Lucina "correctly", you will almost certainly have better luck with Marth, simply because tippers. It's not luck, it's skill.

Her optimal playstyle for now. It's still too early to say for sure. Remember how was considered OP in Melee at first? Things like this do change.

 

[Emblem Lord]

@ Moydow

Stop. lol. just trust me.

stop

 

[Moydow]

@ Moydow

Stop. lol. just trust me.

stop

Yes? Why, was I wrong? If I am, please correct me, I don't want to be responsible for spreading misinformation.

 

[LightLV]

Yes? Why, was I wrong? If I am, please correct me, I don't want to be responsible for spreading misinformation.

No, everything you said makes logical sense, hence the premise of this topic.

The only way for what you said to be false is if Lucina, under practical conditions, can do something that Marth cant. Nothing like that has been seen yet, she shares all the same animations and attacks save shield breaker, and even that is stronger on Marth at tipper range.

Lucina's damage seems to be, at best, a mere 1% higher (SOMETIMES LESS) than Marth's sourspot abilities, and marth's tipper moves are generally 2-3% stronger. None of her moves have different properties than Marth's which literally just makes her a permanently nerfed marth. Her landing lag is even identical.

She should have just used Roy's mechanics at the very least. The extra damage you'd get from sourspots while playing Lucina would be negated within 1 or 2 lucky tippers in the course of a stock, not to mention Marth's ability to kill way earlier. I don't think the balance team is very good at clones anymore.

 

[warionumbah2]

Yes? Why, was I wrong? If I am, please correct me, I don't want to be responsible for spreading misinformation.

I don't think you said anything wrong he's telling you to stop since you're arguing with a bias fanboy who clearly doesn't know Marth(he literally said landing tippers are luck based when as you said is pure skill).lightv layed it down nicely.

 

[LightLV]

They need to just give Lucina about a 3-4 frame reduction on her landing lag normals, and turn her into a combo-oriented version of Marth. Either that, or buff her specials, make her normals do more shield damage, something. Because going off marth as a template, she really isn't good at anything.

Edit: (That marth isn't better at)

 

[Severn]

Yes? Why, was I wrong? If I am, please correct me, I don't want to be responsible for spreading misinformation.

Everything you said is correct. I think he is just telling you to stop because there is no point in arguing with people who are biased towards their waifu and don't accept facts, pretty much the main reason why Lucina boards lacks any constructive discussions.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Everything you said is correct. I think he is just telling you to stop because there is no point in arguing with people who are biased towards their waifu and don't accept facts, pretty much the main reason why Lucina boards lacks any constructive discussions.

Eh, I'll admit this is true(if not for myself), but I'll say that I dont join the competitive discussion because I see myself as casual.

I won't and don't expect to change your view on it, but I'm just throwing in my two cents.

 

[Beast Boy]

Side B is such an important tool for Marth and Lucina and should be your go to punish in most situations. You're generally going to be racking up more % with this move as a Lucina player. That reliable damage is pretty beneficially and not to be ignored.

 

[Robertman2]

I don't think you said anything wrong he's telling you to stop since you're arguing with a bias fanboy who clearly doesn't know Marth(he literally said landing tippers are luck based when as you said is pure skill).lightv layed it down nicely.

I mained Marth in Melee, Brawl, and PM. It could be the fact I've always had trouble landing tippers that I think it's luck based. And it really is too early to tell.

 

[warionumbah2]

I mained Marth in Melee, Brawl, and PM. It could be the fact I've always had trouble landing tippers that I think it's luck based. And it really is too early to tell.

then you didn't do a good job with him if you lack skill to utilise the tippers then wow. Especially since you apparently main him in the past incarnations, tippers are not luck based it's you who creates an opening it's you who spaces correctly. But stick to your false assumptions I don't care anymore.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yes? Why, was I wrong? If I am, please correct me, I don't want to be responsible for spreading misinformation.

Your intellect is wasted on those who refuse to listen. Take it from someone who has been in the scene for over a decade. Dont waste time trying to beat truth into people that are desperate to hold onto falsehoods.

 

[Folt]

I mained Marth in Melee, Brawl, and PM. It could be the fact I've always had trouble landing tippers that I think it's luck based. And it really is too early to tell.

Landing tippers pretty much relies on knowing Marth's effetive max range and reading your opponent's behavior, and keeping space between you and the opponent, all of which relies on training and skill, and Marth's moveset as made for these things. Because Lucina is a 1:1 clone besides her balanced attacks means that she also benefits from the same things as Marth, with the difference being that she has traded away the strength of tippers in return for not whiffing her attacks.

The thing is that having tipped attacks rewards Marth far more than whiffed atttacks punish him, whereas Lucina's balanced attacks leads her to trade what essentially is a big reward for playing the way she's supposed to play as for the "advantage" of not getting punished percent-wise if she screws up, which is an unfair tradeoff for Lucina because Marth doesn't really care about the fact that his attacks can deal less percentile damage: A good solid tipper ensures that even low percents can be put to good use for setting up gimps or killing.

As nothing in regards to ways to play her differently in high play has been found, this renders her a more solid character than Roy because of who she's cloned from and because the properties that differ her from her parent also differentiates her from Roy for the better, but Marth will always be the better choice of the two because his properties simply make him better and more suited to the advantages the moveset gives him.

 

[Undrdog]

Because there's quite a bit of luck in tippers. Lucina is more reliable.

Eh? That's like saying winning isn't based on skill, rather an RNG decision at the results screen.

But more to the point, while it may be more obnoxious trying to space the tipper without spacing ATs such as wavedashing, it's far from being out of the control of the player. Plenty of Marth mains have no trouble with it. I myself have never mained Marth but at the same time can tipper on a consistent basis. Further proof comes from simply searching for Ken on YouTube.

 

[Reila]

Eh... Playing a character because they are supposedly bad is almost as lame as playing a character be they are "top tier".

 

[Naroghin]

Except that one supposes lots of real work and problem solving while the other supposes ease of winning.

However, I agree.

 

[LightLV]

You think so? I personally kind of like the handicap.

 

[Naroghin]

Trust me, as a Link main I definitely understand the joy of rising above the tier list and grabbing victory from the jaws of defeat; it is admittedly part of why I work so hard at Link in smash, but it's not because of the handicap that I stay with the character. The reason to do something isn't necessarily the reason to work hard at that same thing.

 

[Robertman2]

It's why I dabble in Puff. Takes hard work to play her.

 

[LucinaNab1]

One of my bigger reasons for playing Lucina main is simply that I enjoy female characters over male ones, or else I would probably simply choose Marth. Their performance differences mean little to me. Besides, I really like her character in Awakening, so I support her as a character and not just a Smash player.

 

[DrCactus]

I see nothing wrong with that. Low tier heroes are what make the community fun imo.
I really do think Lucina was poorly thought out balance wise. But I want to try and make her work. I need a change of pace from playing heavys all these years anyway.
(also, as sad as it sounds, I've learned more about playing Lucina from reading the Marth Sub forum, than this sub forum. Still love ya guys though)

 

[LucinaNab1]

I read something somewhere, perhaps a FAQ or personal article, that said something along the lines of Lucina possessing slightly faster animations on some of her attacks, although she still has the same frame data as Marth. It definitely feels this way to me, as my hand to eye coordination is trying to tell me that Marth just has a "slower" feel for some reason. Maybe it's the visual thing that I just described.

To me, visual animation is not the same as the mathematical aspects of frame data. It could be something as minor as slightly different positioning of her 3D model. For some reason, she just feels a bit faster, if only slightly.

Overall, I just really like Lucina as a character, and I've long wanted a female swordsman in Smash. It took me 13 years to finally get my wish!

 

[LightLV]

Trust me, as a Link main I definitely understand the joy of rising above the tier list and grabbing victory from the jaws of defeat; it is admittedly part of why I work so hard at Link in smash, but it's not because of the handicap that I stay with the character. The reason to do something isn't necessarily the reason to work hard at that same thing.

Well you should be RIIIGHTTT at home in this game. Link is absurdly strong in Smash 4.

To be completely fair? Lucina IS better at Marth than some things in any given matchup. The issue with her is that those strengths can't stand up to Marth's strengths in the overall picture. Perfecting her strengths will never make her stronger than Marth, who can get lucky with his mechanics and do better than her. I don't think this fact renders her unviable though, which just puts her in an awkward spot.

 

[LucinaNab1]

I personally feel that I have a determined drive to improve my skills with Lucina, however, the path has a lot of frustration and anger at this point. I will have to deal with that before I can really focus on what I need to do next.

 

[LightLV]

In the end...I feel like all Lucina players will just jump ship to Marth anyway. The moment I realized I could legit murder people with Marth at ~40%, I realized Lucina just wasn't worth the trouble.

 

[LucinaNab1]

I've gotten a few good tipper kills with Marth while trying him out.

I'm still determined to work on my skills with Lucina. 'Cause then I can stand with her and say, "This is the Hero King?"

 

[Saclam]

In the end...I feel like all Lucina players will just jump ship to Marth anyway. The moment I realized I could legit murder people with Marth at ~40%, I realized Lucina just wasn't worth the trouble.

That might be the case but there is always gonna be someone who sticks with a character despite being outclass or bad,thats what loyalty is.

Look at Zelda,bad for 3 games in a row and yet everytime I see one,they make her look like a top tier juggernaut with all these tricks and tech that I have never even seen before.

 

[OldmanKarp]

It's because she's so low on most people's tier lists that she is appealing. My goal is to make bracket at an APEX or EVO level tournament with Lucina alone (I know how ridiculously hard this is but it'd be fun to try).

 

[LucinaNab1]

I've gotten into some pretty good fights and made some pretty nice comebacks with Lucina. However, I'm very critical of my performance, get frustrated easily, and know I could be doing better on my punish and edge guarding game. I've won my first two contributions to the current conquest, and still, I find myself frustrated...

It's a game after all, at my age, a part of me questions whether I really should be taking the time to work on this at all. At the end of the day, it wouldn't matter if I was the best Lucina player in the world, it would gain me nothing. Except the ability to win tournaments I couldn't even make it to.

 

[Tino]

The main reason why I play Lucina is because I absolutely like her as a character and the role she portrayed in Awakening. How similar she plays compared to Marth in Smash Bros. doesn't mean anything to me so I just jumped right in and picked her over him. I will say she isn't an easy character to master and I'm still working on improving my skills with her.

 

[Deleted member]

I love and enjoy playing as Lucina and I could care less what tier she belongs in. She was a great character in Awakening and she feels good to play as in Smash. I play as Marth too and is also one of my mains but I like Lucina a bit more as she does feel kinda lighter.