I hink I leared tonight why Fox is one of teh most difficult characters

[G-Sword]

Chiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiilllllllllllllll bruuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhh

It's tough love lol

Foxus I'll take a look at it sometime today. It is new years day

 

[Justinian]

As the others in this thread said, Fox is easily a top tier character. He has options for any given scenario. I watched the two For Glory videos you uploaded of your Fox, and I think I see your problem: it's not Fox himself, but your perception of him that's holding you back. You said that you feel like the character has two options: go in or camp with lasers. And in very broad terms, that's true, but those options are incredibly strong: Fox is one of the best CQC fighters in the entire game, and between Blaster and shine, he can easily camp out characters like Villager and Duck Hunt Dog.

The main problem with your Fox that I noticed from your videos is that your Fox feels... static, for lack of a better word. Fox's movement is one of his best assets, and you weren't using it to the fullest. It almost seemed like you were afraid to go in once you saw an opening, and if you ever felt unsafe in the neutral, you rolled away and started shooting lasers. One of Fox's best options to stay safe in the neutral is to just keep moving, because a lot of the cast has a hard time dealing with his slippery mobility. Another thing is that in the event that you did win neutral, you didn't do much with it; you weren't confirming off hits to gain momentum, which is what Fox's game is built on. For example, you would get a dash attack off, but instead of converting into an up tilt, up air, etc. you would just reset to neutral. You also aren't making much use of nair, dair, and jabs, which are some of Fox's combo starters and very good moves in his kit in general. You seemed to be struggling to kill that Ike, but I didn't see you go for a single one of Fox's kill confirms (like the aforementioned soft nair, dair, or jab jab into an up smash). Generally, Fox should be using a kill confirm or an up air to take out a stock once the opponent gets into the triple digits, and if they get past too far past that (like that Ike got up to 150% or more) then you can start using spaced back airs, which are safe on shield and will kill at the ledge at ~110ish% (and would have killed that Ike from anywhere with how much damage he had).

I'm not the best Fox in the world, but I hope I was able to help. Stick with Fox, dude; he's incredibly rewarding once you start to understand him even a little. Good luck!

 

[Foxus]

As the others in this thread said, Fox is easily a top tier character. He has options for any given scenario. I watched the two For Glory videos you uploaded of your Fox, and I think I see your problem: it's not Fox himself, but your perception of him that's holding you back. You said that you feel like the character has two options: go in or camp with lasers. And in very broad terms, that's true, but those options are incredibly strong: Fox is one of the best CQC fighters in the entire game, and between Blaster and shine, he can easily camp out characters like Villager and Duck Hunt Dog.

The main problem with your Fox that I noticed from your videos is that your Fox feels... static, for lack of a better word. Fox's movement is one of his best assets, and you weren't using it to the fullest. It almost seemed like you were afraid to go in once you saw an opening, and if you ever felt unsafe in the neutral, you rolled away and started shooting lasers. One of Fox's best options to stay safe in the neutral is to just keep moving, because a lot of the cast has a hard time dealing with his slippery mobility. Another thing is that in the event that you did win neutral, you didn't do much with it; you weren't confirming off hits to gain momentum, which is what Fox's game is built on. For example, you would get a dash attack off, but instead of converting into an up tilt, up air, etc. you would just reset to neutral. You also aren't making much use of nair, dair, and jabs, which are some of Fox's combo starters and very good moves in his kit in general. You seemed to be struggling to kill that Ike, but I didn't see you go for a single one of Fox's kill confirms (like the aforementioned soft nair, dair, or jab jab into an up smash). Generally, Fox should be using a kill confirm or an up air to take out a stock once the opponent gets into the triple digits, and if they get past too far past that (like that Ike got up to 150% or more) then you can start using spaced back airs, which are safe on shield and will kill at the ledge at ~110ish% (and would have killed that Ike from anywhere with how much damage he had).

I'm not the best Fox in the world, but I hope I was able to help. Stick with Fox, dude; he's incredibly rewarding once you start to understand him even a little. Good luck!

Yeah, I don't know when there is a "opening," its more like shots in the dark. Furthermore, I don't know what "in the neutral" is supposed to mean.
I'm not the other person, so if my opponent is airborne, especially if it is a sword-fighter, why compromise myself to go in with the dude could come in with either a counter or a dair (if Link). I did try going in for a dash attack a couple times, but the dude was shielding each time, so I considered it a lost cause.

My brain only knows how to kill and panic. I'm not a mind-reader.
So yeah, maybe I am scared, but is losing a stock appealing to anyone?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Bro, you have GOT to let go of your pride. Seriously, pride = nothing. Everybody has been demolished at some point, you're not any different from that. Taking a loss is hard, but it's what you do with that loss that makes you a true fighter.

 

[imabaer]

Took a quick look at the Ike video. Note: I'm an extremely crap Fox.

To be blunt, this is 100% a matter of your skill and knowledge level being very low. Your approach is extremely linear, you don't follow up hits, you spam dash attacks, whiff grabs, and you overuse rolls. You're not using tilts, you're spamming smashes, and you're trying to kill way too early.

Until someone who has a clue on what they are doing gets down to giving you suggestions, I'm going to suggest some basic things you can practice.

Short Hopping: Make sure you can do this in your sleep. A lot of your approaches and defensive options are based off of short hopping and throwing out an aerial. Without this, you're playing Rock, Scissors, Paper without Paper. If it seems too easy, move on to the next step, which is landing aerials while doing so. All of Fox's aerials are very useful.

Throwing: Start using Down throw almost exclusively. You can combo into it with aerials at low percentages.

Tilts: If your c stick isn't set to "Attack", considering changing it. Your Up tilt in particular is AMAZING and Forward tilts are great poking tools.

Movement: For now, stop rolling. Period. You're allowed to spot dodge, but play games without using rolls. Eventually you will use them again, but they're a crutch for you right now, and something that anyone worth their salt will punish you for using. Learn what you can do without them. You are also a shark, now: never stop moving.

 

[Justinian]

Bro, you have GOT to let go of your pride. Seriously, pride = nothing. Everybody has been demolished at some point, you're not any different from that. Taking a loss is hard, but it's what you do with that loss that makes you a true fighter.

This. Foxus , it seems like you want to get better at Smash, but refuse to take the necessary steps to get there. You can't get salty over losses; you need to take them as learning experiences. We aren't trying to "publicly humiliate" you, we're trying to help you, but we can only help you as much as you're willing to help yourself, and the first step to doing that is to let go of the ego.

Then, check out some videos of top Fox players and take notes. Take notes on your own games, win or lose. Go out to tournaments, get bodied, and use it as motivation to improve. Oh, and check out Omni's YouTube channel. He has lots of videos about the philosophical / mental side of Smash and how to improve yourself at it, and just last night uploaded a really helpful video for newer players. If you truly want to get better, you'll see that the only obstacle to your improvement is yourself. Once you get over that hump, well... your job will be a lot easier.

 

[luke_atyeo]

that feel when you do a long post and it gets ignored... :<

it seems like you want to get better at Smash, but refuse to take the necessary steps to get there. You can't get salty over losses; you need to take them as learning experiences. We aren't trying to "publicly humiliate" you, we're trying to help you, but we can only help you as much as you're willing to help yourself, and the first step to doing that is to let go of the ego.

this is super important advice, like crazy important

read this foxus, it might help you http://qldsmash.com/Blog/Article/35/how-to-develop-a-strong-competative-mindset

 

[G-Sword]

Watched it. Like @imabear said... You roll way too much and alot of times for no reason. U also don't use fox's agility to the fullest extent. U don't fox trot, short hop, short/full hop fast fall. U don't use jabs. U don't shield enough for me. U throw out attacks when there is no possible way they are gonna land. Too many smash attacks where u don't do anything special to fake him out. U just throw it out. No combos or punish combos where u land a hit than they try to throw one out or move and u punish them by shielding/moving than attacking. U need to learn how to use shield as a offensive weapon. That's a great key to fox is the shield. It helps him not take damage obviously but allows him to get close and punish depending on the move. U need to learn when to grab and when to jab or ftilt basically the spacing in certain moves. U went for a grab on ike and missed him and he hit u for it when u could of jabbed him easily. Spacing is very important because mostly everyone that fights fox tries to space him out and punish him because of his short range. U need to know when to attack or when to back off because of the spacing but u have to learn timing in your attacks vs the opponents ( how fast can the opponent recover after throwing out this move, do I have enough time to hit him, do I have enough range to be able to hit safely), yours vs opponents positioning. U use lasers as a tool not as a weapon and what by it is that the laser does not rack up tons of damage quickly after one,two or three shots. It needs to be used as a tool to get a little bit of damage here and there but to play mind games to get the opponent to rush u thinking they have enough time to punish but u fool them and avoid the punish. U can blast plenty of lasers in a match but they need to be used wisely. If u have a chance to get a free hit on a opponent vs using lasers hitting them is better because u can follow up with another attack most of the time. U need to watch other fox players that are better than u, take our advice than apply it. U should also practice playing a CPU 9 just to get more of a feel of the game

 

[Foxus]

that feel when you do a long post and it gets ignored... :<





this is super important advice, like crazy important

read this foxus, it might help you http://qldsmash.com/Blog/Article/35/how-to-develop-a-strong-competative-mindset

Good article.

And you didn't waste your mind, nor has anyone in this entire thread. I'm reminded of that one Simpsons episode where Bart asks Lisa is=f she really wanted a challenge (the answer being, "Duh, a challenge I can do.") That, quite wholeheartedly, would be a way of describing me.

 

[Foxus]

Watched it. Like @imabear said... You roll way too much and alot of times for no reason. U also don't use fox's agility to the fullest extent. U don't fox trot, short hop, short/full hop fast fall. U don't use jabs. U don't shield enough for me. U throw out attacks when there is no possible way they are gonna land. Too many smash attacks where u don't do anything special to fake him out. U just throw it out. No combos or punish combos where u land a hit than they try to throw one out or move and u punish them by shielding/moving than attacking. U need to learn how to use shield as a offensive weapon. That's a great key to fox is the shield. It helps him not take damage obviously but allows him to get close and punish depending on the move. U need to learn when to grab and when to jab or ftilt basically the spacing in certain moves. U went for a grab on ike and missed him and he hit u for it when u could of jabbed him easily. Spacing is very important because mostly everyone that fights fox tries to space him out and punish him because of his short range. U need to know when to attack or when to back off because of the spacing but u have to learn timing in your attacks vs the opponents ( how fast can the opponent recover after throwing out this move, do I have enough time to hit him, do I have enough range to be able to hit safely), yours vs opponents positioning. U use lasers as a tool not as a weapon and what by it is that the laser does not rack up tons of damage quickly after one,two or three shots. It needs to be used as a tool to get a little bit of damage here and there but to play mind games to get the opponent to rush u thinking they have enough time to punish but u fool them and avoid the punish. U can blast plenty of lasers in a match but they need to be used wisely. If u have a chance to get a free hit on a opponent vs using lasers hitting them is better because u can follow up with another attack most of the time. U need to watch other fox players that are better than u, take our advice than apply it. U should also practice playing a CPU 9 just to get more of a feel of the game

KAP dude (Kill and Panic), I know I must seem like a broken record typing that, but its real, and embedded in my brain (at the time being).

Just an idea to anyone offering feedback, if you could tell me how to correct the wrongs specifically, over just pointing out the wrongs, that would be great.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

KAP dude (Kill and Panic), I know I must seem like a broken record typing that, but its real, and embedded in my brain (at the time being).

Just an idea to anyone offering feedback, if you could tell me how to correct the wrongs specifically, over just pointing out the wrongs, that would be great.

All you have to do is practice movement and general control of your character. Like, try setting the cpu to 5 and run away from it. Pick a stage like Gamer and something. Don't let the cpu hit you. That's my recommendation.

For attacking, fight a lvl 3 cpu for 15-20 mins. That'll get you right.

For shielding, go on a stage with hazards and make sure to stand still and shield. you should be perfect shielding when you're done. Onett is a good stage for that.

 

[Foxus]

I guess Fox has some clout when it comes to attacking foes in the air (well, up smash or if FE mains be like counter this ****).

Coming off of FG tonight, you would have seen my point why Pikachu and Fox are relatively close when it coems to speed, the gap being much smaller than that graph another user put up (the speed needs to be tested again). Sonic and Capt Falcon would be challenge because of well, speed. Zero Suit Samus or Shiek are probably also good to compare Fox's speed to. Sorry, but Fox doesn't move at the speed of light. Pikachu moves a bit faster than she/he did in Brawl. Fox also has reasonable end lag on the Fox Illusion and with his grab, which if removed, would help better represent his proclaimed status as a top tier.

Still seem to struggle with Marth after a sex change though (you know who I'm referring to), and Shulk (only if I could grab that Monodo sword and ***** slap that Beach Boy).

 

[EpicSonicLatios]

It works both ways. You could also say that the difference between fox and Mac isn't super big, or the difference between fox and falcon. Also, these stats are reliable and are for smash 4. Check out my smash corners run speed video if you don't believe me. Also, how would the data be from brawl if it included little Mac?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I guess Fox has some clout when it comes to attacking foes in the air (well, up smash or if FE mains be like counter this ****).

Coming off of FG tonight, you would have seen my point why Pikachu and Fox are relatively close when it coems to speed, the gap being much smaller than that graph another user put up (the speed needs to be tested again). Sonic and Capt Falcon would be challenge because of well, speed. Zero Suit Samus or Shiek are probably also good to compare Fox's speed to. Sorry, but Fox doesn't move at the speed of light. Pikachu moves a bit faster than she/he did in Brawl. Fox also has reasonable end lag on the Fox Illusion and with his grab, which if removed, would help better represent his proclaimed status as a top tier.

Still seem to struggle with Marth after a sex change though (you know who I'm referring to), and Shulk (only if I could grab that Monodo sword and ***** slap that Beach Boy).

Just keep playing. And go tournies

 

[ZeroJanitor]

Fox also has reasonable end lag on the Fox Illusion

You can do an Illusion immediately after a jump (i.e. when you're just barely off the ground) and you can act out of it much sooner than a grounded Illusion.

 

[Top Boss]

I think Fox is top 5-10 in terms of difficulty and top 10 in the tier list. Back to the original topic, this is why I think Fox is difficult:
*somewhat short range
*short active frames on most moves
*Recovery
*Has tons of different options that need to be kept in mind and need to be able to be used on the spot
*requires solid fundamentals
*heavily dependent on matchup knowledge(knowing the opponent's frame data. countering certain things, etc).
*Doesn't have a specific kill confirm you can just fish for(like a generic throw setup).
*His few kill moves are very risky to throw out
*Gets punished super hard(which can make bad habits completely ruin your gameplay).
*His mobility can make him hard to control
*DEMANDS PRECISION, CREATIVITY, MIXUPS, ADAPTATION(yes, this is important)
*one of the best users of the more difficult techniques(perfect pivots and whatnot)
*ETC

 

[AvengerV]

Coming from a Fox and Diddy main, I think Fox is easily Top 10. I think that Diddy is slightly better than Fox but not by much.

 

[DavefromOntario]

Hold on there partner, just where are you getting that idea from?

Fox's attacks are close range, so he attacks aren't going to go far.
Cloud Fox is toast
Sonic poses Fox a reasonable challenge

Fox is a mid-tier character at best, and I doubt any charts or stats ranking him above that. He is just not high tier material. I laughed at the "You're doing something wrong" in referencing Link. Getting around Link's projectiles, yes, otherwise Fox is more than likely dead meat (well, with the Link, Link, but the Toon Link).

Fox, like Mario for example, is truly effective when you can get in and stay in for the kill, otherwise like Mario,you have to spam your way in. Fox moves as fast, and no faster than Pikachu (which is why someone at the speed of Pikachu and slower is a fair matchup for Fox, thus why Cloud and Sonic are out of the question).

I'll give it to Fox for the recovery bit, his recovery is much better than Yoshi's, let alone Little Mac's, although in some ways in how Fox is setup, you could compare him to Little Mac, just not in recoveries though.
I think you're giving Fox a wee bit too much credit.

lol this post

 

[Baby_Sneak]

lol this post

The user is really new to comp play is all.

 

[Foxus]

lol this post

Dave, I don't appreciate posts like those.

By the way, you wouldn't happen to be a "David larusci" that commented on the Fox vs Ike video on my YouTube channel, did you? Sorry if this seems below the belt, just seems a bit coincidental (the David on there commenting, "scrub fox lolz.")

 

[DavefromOntario]

Dave, I don't appreciate posts like those.

By the way, you wouldn't happen to be a "David larusci" that commented on the Fox vs Ike video on my YouTube channel, did you? Sorry if this seems below the belt, just seems a bit coincidental (the David on there commenting, "scrub fox lolz.")

my bad, sorry m8, i didnt think u were serious with ur post above. wont happen again

 

[luke_atyeo]

Dave, I don't appreciate posts like those.

By the way, you wouldn't happen to be a "David larusci" that commented on the Fox vs Ike video on my YouTube channel, did you? Sorry if this seems below the belt, just seems a bit coincidental (the David on there commenting, "scrub fox lolz.")

Foxus, I dont appreciate posts like those

 

[Foxus]

Foxus, I dont appreciate posts like those

I was just asking.

 

[Curleh_Mustache]

Fox is a high tier character in many ways
Pros:
Fast character
Long distance recovery
Very aggressive
Can beat projectiles because of reflector
Easy to rack up damage with blaster
Can easily juggle any character with u-tilt and u-air
Fast attacks
difficult to juggle due to fast fall speed

Cons:
Predictable recovery
Combo meat
light character
Not really good at edge guarding

 

[Foxus]

Wow, never knew Fox was so popular. Mainly doubted it due to Nintendo putting the franchise on the back burner, then when they bring it up, its a 64 reboot. I would think Mario, Link, Zelda or even Yoshi would be more popular. Probably behind Pacman and Villager in terms of recovery, Fox is up there. When you say combo meat, ironically enough I've thought Pikachu is a good contender for that position. The garb plus thundershock can have Fox like a deer in the headlights.

Trying taking what I would name a Pomeranian up once. It's how I know.

 

[luke_atyeo]

I'm pretty close to believing foxus isn't a real person

 

[DavefromOntario]

I'm pretty close to believing foxus isn't a real person

thats what i thought 2

 

[Foxus]

I'm pretty close to believing foxus isn't a real person

I'm as real as I'll get out. And i wasn't blowing smoke when I said I didn't know Fox, well as a Smash fighter, was so popular (I don't know how popular Fox as a Nintendo character overall in comparison to say Mario, Pikachu or Link). You can say "Oh yeah, I main Mario," or "Oh yeah, I main Kirby" but you can say "Oh yeah, I main Fox" and I'll say, "Oh, really?"

 

[luke_atyeo]

ok lets test your theory

Oh yeah, I main Fox

 

[Top Boss]

I MAIN FOX

 

[Nubber]

Lol, of course we main fox that why we are here.

 

[JesusMorpheus]

The thing about Fox is he requires a lot of precision to even be played decently. I watched your game against that Ike and there are so many times where you could have done better options. Between like 15-30%, you could have dash attacked into up tilt strings, which could have led into reverse f tilt, nair, or possibly bair. At kill percents past 120, there were a few times where Ike did something unsafe which could have resulted in you taking his stock with run up up smash, but you opted for the safer option, such as a grab or dash attack. The whole video was me wondering why I wasn't seeing any up smashes. Forward smash is something i saw a lot of. It is a high risk, low reward type of move in that while it may have a bit of range, it is pretty bad at killing. There were also times where you just straight up shot lasers and resulted in you getting punished. While lasers are a great projectile, I wouldn't use it that much as they aren't like they used to be.

The point i am trying to make here is that before you start bashing a character, maybe you could try researching how to play the character optimally before having an opinion on them. Yes Fox is a very difficult character to learn, but the payoff is amazing once you learn all of his confirms and neat set ups. All it takes is practice and some time. I would recommend watching some tournament matches online so you can have a solid foundation of how Fox can be played.

 

[EpicSonicLatios]

ok lets test your theory

Oh yeah, I main Fox

What the heck happened to this thread?

 

[Foxus]

What the heck happened to this thread?

Its called transitioning from using Yoshi circa Melee to Fox in Smash 4. Obviously one here didn't think I was legit.

That being said, I probably became too accustomed to Yoshi's ability to go all in (effectively) at once over bait and punish. Probably is why using Fox is like speaking Deutsch at the moment. Now that I think about it, if Yoshi's recovery was better, I probably would not have created this thread.

 

[Foxus]

Question though, how different is Yoshi as a fighter in comparison to Fox? Any similarities in terms of fighting style?

That may be part of my problem.

 

[EpicSonicLatios]

That shouldn't make a huge difference. They are actually pretty similar, both with good mobility (although with yoshi being more airspeed centered and fox more ground speed centered), short range, a good combo game, and they both have problems with killing (Yoshi's might even be worse than fox's, because he doesn't have aerial>smash kill combos like fox does). Although yoshi is worse at baiting than fox, I don't really think his approach game is stellar either. His neutral is heavily based around his aerials, specifically fair, and his eggs, which give him a good long range game. Ultimately I think if you try to go hard rushdown with either character, it wouldn't be a terribly pretty result. But you are right about fox being more about baiting. Also, Yoshi's recovery isn't that bad. In fact, he and fox are probably somewhat close together in overall recovery strength, considering everything that matters. Yoshi's play style shouldn't really hurt you in the transition from one to the other, I think it's just that you need to practice more with fox to use him in a way that uses his strengths, which have all been listed above at some point in this thread.

 

[EPM]

Yoshi's recovery is amazing :S

 

[Baby_Sneak]

That shouldn't make a huge difference. They are actually pretty similar, both with good mobility (although with yoshi being more airspeed centered and fox more ground speed centered), short range, a good combo game, and they both have problems with killing (Yoshi's might even be worse than fox's, because he doesn't have aerial>smash kill combos like fox does). Although yoshi is worse at baiting than fox, I don't really think his approach game is stellar either. His neutral is heavily based around his aerials, specifically fair, and his eggs, which give him a good long range game. Ultimately I think if you try to go hard rushdown with either character, it wouldn't be a terribly pretty result. But you are right about fox being more about baiting. Also, Yoshi's recovery isn't that bad. In fact, he and fox are probably somewhat close together in overall recovery strength, considering everything that matters. Yoshi's play style shouldn't really hurt you in the transition from one to the other, I think it's just that you need to practice more with fox to use him in a way that uses his strengths, which have all been listed above at some point in this thread.

They don't play similar really. Playing yoshi at a higher level requires abusing his mobility with b reversals and wavebouncing. Like, yoshi' mobility is his core when it comes to his gameplay. Fox isn't like that. He's more explosive and sudden than yoshi' more consistent, "I'll never stop moving" type of

 

[luke_atyeo]

They don't play similar really. Playing yoshi at a higher level requires abusing his mobility with b reversals and wavebouncing. Like, yoshi' mobility is his core when it comes to his gameplay. Fox isn't like that. He's more explosive and sudden than yoshi' more consistent, "I'll never stop moving" type of

actually, as a bait and punish character, fox is all about his mobility, weave in and weave out, dont stop moving.
Mobility is deffs core to fox as well, its a different kind of mobility, but the practical applications are similar.

 

[DavemanCozy]

To take up in Smash (yes, I let the title bleed into the message).

There's an edit button. I don't know what I'd do without it myself.

Fox is a flawed character. You have two options with Fox, either get up close and personal (which is a horribly bad idea if you are facing of the Link's or Cloud, let alone Shulk) or you roll and spam the hell out of his blaster to rack up damage, Either way, Fox is a combative character. Losing just about every single match in For Glory, I came to the conclusion that:

Nah, not falling for this. I'm gonna stop reading there. This isn't worth replying to with an answer. You can look for it yourself. Just go to the sticky'd threads at the top of this board, or go to Youtube and look up "Fox Smash 4."

None of you guys should fall for troll-bait like this. Seriously, I'm surprised this hasn't been locked by Mav.