I don't understand, what's with more dk nerfs?

[itsaxelol]

I really don't get it. I understand my mewtwo getting hit, even though I'm not happy about it. But dk too? What?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well man, everyone got hit. Well, everyone except my man Ganon, really. Even Falco and Fox were not immune to this. I can't really explain the damage reduction on aerials but Nair intangibility was pretty strange.

 

[DK-RULES]

I hear you. I do like aerial up B landing much improved as he doesn't fall anymore as an easy prey. That was the obvious improvement. Need to play a lot more to really measure pros and cons on this.

 

[themoonsloth]

Did they increase the time it takes to act out of dash attack? I use that a lot to chain into nair and now it just doesnt work

 

[Albinodong]

I'm not too happy about the nerfs. DK feels very different, at first I thought it was just something I had to get used to, but after playing 10 matches, then switching over to my secondaries I'm now sure: DK is a lot worse.

I really don't get it, I think we can all agree that DK and Ganon were a lot alike in 3.02. Ganon got some real nice buffs. Before 3.5 came out I hoped for some slight buffs. Now I'm just hoping for a quick patch which reverts DK to the way he was in 3.02. Untill then I'll main Roy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy about 3.5 as a whole. The game plays way smoother and the added content is great. I just don't like the DK changes.

 

[CyberZixx]

What is so bad about them? The grab change makes sense, it was rather silly before and Dk gets a lot from a grab. Nair lost intangibility which was also really random and not needed. Everything else seems like minor aerial nerfs. Maybe to make his throw conversions a little less punishing?

 

[Albinodong]

I'm not saying DK is bottom tier now. I'm saying that the nerfs were unnecessary, and compared to Ganon, unfair. It might just be me, but DK feels slower and a tad weaker. Probably because his dash attack jump cancel got removed, which I really loved to use.

 

[CyberZixx]

Personally I felt DK was a nice deal better than Ganon in 3.02 so I see the changes. I was miffed by changes to my characters yesterday but today i'm understanding them more. The goal overall was to reduce cheese are overpowered stuff to focus more on fundimentals and player skills. All characters outside of Fox/Falco got that treatment.

 

[robosteven]

Aren't throws better now because release point fixes though?

 

[Cpt.]

What is so bad about them? The grab change makes sense, it was rather silly before and Dk gets a lot from a grab. Nair lost intangibility which was also really random and not needed. Everything else seems like minor aerial nerfs. Maybe to make his throw conversions a little less punishing?

I disagree. DK's main play style is based on his grab. He also has huge arms.

I felt like DK was good in PM 3.02. Probably perfect. I don't see why they changed him at all really.

 

[Spank3d]

I disagree. DK's main play style is based on his grab. He also has huge arms.

I felt like DK was good in PM 3.02. Probably perfect. I don't see why they changed him at all really.

I think you're entirely correct in saying that DK was "probably perfect". I understand the need for fixing collision points with his grabs, but I entirely disagree with taking away the intangibility on his Neutral Air. It gives him a much tougher time to approach certain characters (I played in a tournament yesterday, and found it nigh impossible to get in on a Falco I played).

While it's not immediately noticeable, you start to see certain things that you can no longer do with his Neutral Air. I would politely ask the PM Devs why they made this change if I knew any of them.

Overall, I'm still very happy with the way 3.5 has turned out so far, and will continue to main DK, regardless of nerfs and buffs upcoming.

 

[Planet Piss]

Here are my interpretations thus far:

1) This was not mentioned in the official change log, but the initial hit on grounded up+B seems to have less vertical range. It's my favorite and often go-to KO move, and it seemed, during a tournament last weekend, that it was more difficult for me to tech chase KO opponents who landed on PS2 and Battlefield platforms.
1.5) In terms of the recovery changes, the differences with up+b come as a double-edged sword.

--pros:
The momentum boost doesn't make a huge difference in DK's ability to escape pursuers, because most characters already have enough speed and/or range to punish an on-stage recovery. The most common way for DK to foil an edgeguard by going onstage is to switch up timings so that DK can up+b through opponents rather than above them. This buff of sorts makes it slightly more reliable to recover high, which was never a completely solid go-to option, but just another recovery mix-up. Generally, DK players have to do some kind of player-player conditioning to make it back against knowledgeable, fast edgeguarders; his recovery can be excellent or obvious depending on the amount adaptation, from both sides, which happens naturally during sets. The most consistently reliable ways for DK to recover were/are:

a: Recovering low, hugging the stage, and following-up an in-place ledge tech with an immediate up+b which may result in a stage spike or table-turning edgeguard situation, but at the very least, returns a good bit of damage to whomever tried to attack (every hit of up+b can do a pretty significant bit of damage), and can give DK center-stage control, essentially skipping neutral in many occasions.
b: Continuously building height with upward DI and recovering so high that the opponent can't tell where he will land. Fast-fall mixups and 'fading back' Silent Spectre style can even guarantee punishes against opponents who still think that they can punish DK after he has returned to the stage. The new up+b momentum boost makes the second recovery option I listed more viable.​

--Less recovery time makes it harder for opponents to react to DK's recovery decision, easier for DK to successfully gimp quick-recovering characters like Wolf, and harder for opponents to punish grounded up +b
--Aerial up+b (if I read the change log right) hits two frames earlier, which is a monumental buff in DK's ability to escape combos.
--cons:
--DK is now far easier to edgehog; grabbing the ledge and rolling on is almost guaranteed to work, whereas before, strict timing was necessary.
--Less recovery distance (obvious)
​

2) Nair invulnerability (or whatever it's called) was somewhat superfluous to begin with; the move has a fair amount of range, and it can still blast through annoying projectiles like Lucas' forward+b and fireballs. As for overcoming Falco's laser game: powersheid (running powershield is easier for DK), mix-up rolls, and use platforms. If you think that the nair armor helped any MU in a meaningful way, then you're probably playing DK too gimmicky. It was helpful, but more bull**** for opponents than anything. Utilizing mixups in neutral and in DI is more valuable, by far, then relying on your opponent to mess up spacing. Armor frames can't protect you from smart opponents who stay at a safe distance and avoid getting hit altogether. Besides, things like DK's old nair make me feel less legit -- the game gave me a kill or an opening which I actually messed up on spacing-wise but got anyway -- which is why I even main this character.
3. Knockback reduction kind of blows, but it's also a double-edged sword. (I hit a DDD with a fair at a high percent and it looked like it sour-spotted. The DDD went nowhere. I don't know much about the new fair yet, but a sourspot makes sense and simply forces the DK to actually aim the move) However, since recovery nerfs are abound, this should even out somewhat.
If there's one thing I've never felt OK about in regards to DK, it's the fact that his nair was often a win-win DI-mixup. DI away and get edgeguarded or die outright, or try to survive and get killed anyway. Nair was (and, somewhat, still is), at almost every percent, at once an extremely reliable kill move and an extremely reliable combo move. Some characters, however, could escape with good DI and not die, but now, the reduction in knockback allows for easier combo follow-ups, and the plentiful recovery nerfs make it remain a viable DI mixup, however less absolute than before.

In a nutshell:
-Faster, yet more easily edgehogged recovery
-Stronger aerial combo game, weaker aerial kill game (barring specials)
-Heavier reliance on careful planning and aiming moves as opposed to relying solely on punish game and opponent blunders
-Heavier reliance on ground-based KO options
-DELICIOUS waveland improvements

I'm not sure about anything else.
I don't think nerfing DK was necessary for brokenness, but I think the PMBR is trying to get players of every character to work harder. I'm still going to go all DK at every tournament.

 

[Jake The Preacher]

I disagree. DK's main play style is based on his grab. He also has huge arms.

I felt like DK was good in PM 3.02. Probably perfect. I don't see why they changed him at all really.

I agree with you, DK's main thing is grabs, and shortening his grab range really cripples him, and I say cripples rather than weakens for a reason. I watched some vids of my DK and from the distance I got some shield grabs and JC grabs, it could be argued that his grab range was broken. But DK RELIES on grab game severely, if he can't get X amount of grabs in one game, he can't win, guaranteed. And if you cripple his chances of getting said grabs, that cripples his chances of winning. Not to mention those grab combos involve aerials, with Nair and Fair being strong kill moves, and Bair being the holy DK bair, nerfing those in damage and knockback continually cripples him even more. Recovery, I'd have to do more experimenting with it but for now I don't like it only because I'm not used to it. Overall, he's definitely been crippled severely

 

[Scuba Steve]

I like how usually the more notable the player, the less worried they are by the changes to their character

 

[Strong Badam]

PSA: If most of your grabs came from shield grabs, the grab range reduction shouldn't matter to you. His changes should be considered in the context of the game engine as well; in 3.5, Shield ASDI was added, which makes DK capable of moving forward slightly when his shield is hit. This allows him to grab things that would otherwise be safe on his shield.

While I don't think DK was particularly powerful in 3.02, he was certainly nowhere near Ganondorf's level of unviability. Additionally, 3.5's changes are not exclusively tailored toward balance, and far more often an improvement in character design, with a change in character viability being a byproduct. Regardless of DK's (lack of) tournament potency, he still had superfluous and overpowering attributes that were excessive and unnecessary. 3.5 removed/toned those down and he is now a less extreme character because of that. A worse character, but less extreme all the same. I personally feel his overall strength relative to the cast as a whole is increased in 3.5 due to some (but certainly not all) would-be counters to him being weakened in the same vein as he was, to greater extents.

That said I still do not plan to use the character very often. I understand that's not very reassuring to you guys when I'm trying to defend the changes, but I personally find my other characters much more enjoyable to play, and in the vast majority of cases at least as good or better choices in terms of matchup than DK.

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

I think the only thing I truly am upset about is the loss of Dash Attack-Jump Cancel on the ground, DA-JC to grounded UpB or Grab were amazing options that helped me get in against certain characters.

 

[Planet Piss]

Here are some (more) specific strategies I've found useful.

--Aerial up+b is absolutely incredible for gimps. It's now like it was in Melee. With the up+b of previous versions, the other hits of the move would stop opponents from taking real knockback, but now it's a frame 2 combo finisher that doubles as a recovery in a game where recoveries, in general, aren't as potent.
--Wavelanding was always difficult to use as extensively as, say, Falcon, who has a lot of traction yet still makes great use of sliding around. This is a great improvement.
--Combos out of aerial attacks into GP are more prevalent due to KB reduction
--Nair and bair, in general, are better for combos; weak nair seems easier to hit, and the DI mixup on the weak hit/strong hit split is enough to guarantee fair spikes and follow-ups in general.
--(This may have already been a feature, but I didn't notice it if it was) DK can slide into grounded forward+b if he has ran past dash dance distance. This is mostly cheese, but I'm finding it very easy to hit people with this move in many different scenarios.
--The new up+b momentum boost makes it less easy to SD by rising too high while recovering offstage with your back to the ledge.
--Giant Punch feels amazing. The hitbox ignores hurtboxes with respect to its new intangibility, so it doesn't stop for an hour to add damage. It powers right through everything.

I'm starting to think that DK wasn't even truly nerfed. It's a little easier to edgehog him, he gets less "random" KOs, and he has to watch his spacing a little more, but that's all I can see as detrimental to his effectiveness. I'm more inclined to say, in terms of the entire roster, that he was buffed. He just feels so much more round and less Cheese The Character. Overall, the most frustrating things about this character, such as his inability to grab ledge (after up+b) when turned around and slightly above the ledge, and his inability to waveland as well as other characters, have been resolved, and the only areas in which he is hurt are areas that rewarded cheesy playstyles. DK can still zero-death the **** out of every character.

 

[Spank3d]

Additionally, 3.5's changes are not exclusively tailored toward balance, and far more often an improvement in character design, with a change in character viability being a byproduct. Regardless of DK's (lack of) tournament potency, he still had superfluous and overpowering attributes that were excessive and unnecessary. 3.5 removed/toned those down and he is now a less extreme character because of that. A worse character, but less extreme all the same. I personally feel his overall strength relative to the cast as a whole is increased in 3.5 due to some (but certainly not all) would-be counters to him being weakened in the same vein as he was, to greater extents.

That makes sense after sitting down and mulling it over for a few minutes. I appreciate your explanation Strong Bad, it brings to mind the ideal of having players work hard to achieve the best with their characters, not having the character do all the work (which honestly I think is the entire point of DK, well.. that and smashing the living **** out of the cast).

Also, thanks J$ for all the juicy tidbits. I'm looking forward to meeting/playing when I get back to Eagle!

 

[Oracle]

initially thought dk would be horrible but they kept a lot of his best tools like down b and cargo stuff. If youre losing with dk, you probably arent poob comboing enough

 

[Jake The Preacher]

So after watching POOB play PM and kinda whack Sora, I no longer doubt 3.5 DK

 

[TreK]

Can someone explain to me the advantage of the new jab ? I see everyone call it a buff but people keep getting away when I hit them with it :C

 

[Planet Piss]

Can someone explain to me the advantage of the new jab ? I see everyone call it a buff but people keep getting away when I hit them with it :C

It already wasn't a true combo. Most chars of 3.0 could get out of a follow-up, after the uppercut ,with combo DI, so I haven't noticed much of a difference. I think the angle is five degrees more in DK's favor, which is very minute. Try replacing the second hit with a dtilt to punish the DI.

Do you mean escaping the first hit?

Also it's nice to see another Idahomie DK. Spank3d, are you on the Idaho Smash FB page?

 

[Spank3d]

Also it's nice to see another Idahomie DK. Spank3d, are you on the Idaho Smash FB page?

Yea, on the Idaho page and all but don't check it too often now. I showed up at Qraq's house a few times over the summer, then came back down to Utah for school. Been trying to rise in the ranks of the Utah scene

 

[Jake The Preacher]

Do we have any idea or data on how much smaller his standing/ JC grab range is compared to 3.02?

 

[Strong Badam]

In in-game units (standing grab):

3.02 (and every previous public release of PM):
Minimum Y: -1.4
Maximum Y: 12.6
Minimum X: 0.25
Maximum X: 22.5

3.5:
Minimum Y: 1.6
Maximum Y: 9.6
Minimum X: 2.5
Maximum X: 19.5

A few for comparison (Maximum X):
Fox - 12.16
Falco - 13.36
Sheik - 14.46
Roy - 17.81
Marth - 18.73
DDD - 20.91

 

[Taytertot]

So Im curious if all you DK mains think that DK will still remain a hard counter to roy? As ive seen thus far, its very difficult for roy to win against DK due to the amount of grab combos DK has on roy and im wondering if the DK nerfs will change that? My guess is no it wont change it.

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't think DK was a hard counter to Roy in 3.02 at high level and certainly not in 3.5. Was 55-45 DK in 3.02 IMO. Prob even or maybe in Roy's favor in 3.5.

 

[POOB]

Dont listen to this guy. Sethlon lives in his region and makes every matchup seem to be in roy's favor

 

[Strong Badam]

I live nowhere near Sethlon yet =P

 

[Jake The Preacher]

Ugh, the closest big name to me is Reflex and that's still a state away. But I'm cool with not getting bodied by professionals

 

[Taytertot]

I don't think DK was a hard counter to Roy in 3.02 at high level and certainly not in 3.5. Was 55-45 DK in 3.02 IMO. Prob even or maybe in Roy's favor in 3.5.

really? huh. ok. I guess maybe Im judging the MU in the wrong way because the matches I really noticed it being hard for roy was sethlon vs m2k but it is m2k so i shouldnt be surprised.

 

[Jake The Preacher]

Hey StrongBad if I dropped you a few videos of my DK from 3.02 can you tell me what you think of it and how you think I can do with the 3.5 DK?