~ I don't see the logic in the Ness argument ~

[Luke Groundwalker]

*crosses fingers*

Certainly hope so, he'd make a perfect alt. for Lucas.

 

[Kirby knight]

America had a violently negative reaction when it found out that Nintendo's new console was named the "Wii". Imagine if they brought over a character named "Poo".

Yeah, I know. That's the point I was trying to make.

Aww, see? The perfect alt costume ^_^

-Knight

 

[GreenKirby]

I too, don't see the logic with this argument.

They look alike: Unless your vision is so bad that you can't tell that one is wearing a hat and has dark hair while the other is a blond and lacks hat, they're not that alike. I guess Marth is gone since Ike is a blue haired swordsman

Clones: Look Lucas' pictures. Are they EXACTLY like Ness' moves so far? And even if they are, Luigification people. Duh!

Ness was due to be dropped in Melee: OK, so this has the most backup. But what's to say that will still happen in Brawl? For all we know, Sakurai could have changed his mind by then.

 

[Kirby knight]

For all we know, Sakurai could have changed his mind by then.

And he could of not changed his mind; only time will tell if Ness returns. What reason would Sakurai have for changing his mind anyway?

Would you rather see:

Lucas and Ness
or
Lucas and The Masked Man?

I'd rather see the more unique set; not some character who'd be perfectly fine as an alt costume.

-Knight

 

[burrito]

I shall reiterate my point that I believe Lucas is just an update to Ness. In the same way that TP Link is and update to OOT link or TP Zelda is an update to OOT Zelda. I don't see anyone
asking for OOT Link to be added to Brawl as a seperate character.

also, there aren't even that many probable earthbound characters left. there's Claus and Ness. if someone like Poo (if that's even his name) got in, it would be insane... not to mention stupid. Minority characters aren't bad, but minority characters from a minor franchise isn't really sane.

Since when is Poo a minority character? You've played Earthbound, right? He's one of the four Heroes. Any one of the heroes from Mother 1, 2, 3 (except for Ninten) would make more interesting characters than just adding Ness.

 

[Sinn]

I just wanna point out that Poo is still a character I'm hoping gets in because of his whole mirror ability. This is something that no other character in the game has yet: the ability to use his opponent's entire moveset instead of his own. Besides, he was a great character from EarthBound.

What they SHOULD do is give all of Ness's specials to the newcomer Paula (or Lucas, depending on if he actually USES those moves...). Did anyone else notice that Ness was more like a cleric than a mage? He had healing, transportation, and status inducing spells...and Holy. Paula was the black mage...and Poo was an elitist red mage in monks' clothing.

 

[burrito]

What they SHOULD do is give all of Ness's specials to the newcomer Paula (or Lucas, depending on if he actually USES those moves...). Did anyone else notice that Ness was more like a cleric than a mage? He had healing, transportation, and status inducing spells...and Holy. Paula was the black mage...and Poo was an elitist red mage in monks' clothing.

Yeah, well that's mostly true. Ness did have PK Rockin. Why didn't they give him PK Rockin in Smash Bros.? It was his signature move

 

[Brawlman]

Because when Ness is in Brawl, he'll use PK Rockin Omega as his Final Smash. XP

 

[Big-Cat]

Yeah, well that's mostly true. Ness did have PK Rockin. Why didn't they give him PK Rockin in Smash Bros.? It was his signature move

Good question. They probably couldn't think how it would be executed since the MOTHER games are fought first person. Oh well, it'll be a great final smash.

BTW, who ever did that Ness photoshop, can you do a Ninten one.

Also, I thought I'd say this: If Paula, or Jeff are to be playable, then they should have Ana and Loid as alts.

 

[ZenJestr]

if it boiled down to it who would you rather see?

Ridley
Sonic
Krystal
Claus
Kumatora
Takamaru
Sukapon
Captain Olimar
Lucario
Isaac
Lip
Jill
Midna

or Ness? if you had to pick one of those characters listed up there or Ness...who would you rather have?

 

[Sinn]

Because when Ness is in Brawl, he'll use PK Rockin Omega as his Final Smash. XP

True that. Though I must say, I'd be surprised if they thought out that far ahead when they made the first game that, "Maybe one day we'll have full screen attacks." Still...it's kinda hard to conceptualize that move. I mean...all it looks like in the game is a bunch of red, yellow and blue lights.

 

[Kirby knight]

if it boiled down to it who would you rather see?

Ridley
Sonic
Krystal
Claus
Kumatora
Takamaru
Sukapon
Captain Olimar
Lucario
Isaac
Lip
Jill
Midna

or Ness? if you had to pick one of those characters listed up there or Ness...who would you rather have?

What a dumb list. At least if your going to make some sort of logical list against Ness's inclusion you should only have characters that are from the Earthbound/MOTHER series. :/ using characters that aren't even related...is dumb.

I have what to be "logical" reasons as to why Ness won't be in but this is... just stupid.

-Knight

 

[Brawlman]

True that. Though I must say, I'd be surprised if they thought out that far ahead when they made the first game that, "Maybe one day we'll have full screen attacks." Still...it's kinda hard to conceptualize that move. I mean...all it looks like in the game is a bunch of red, yellow and blue lights.

And that could be what happens! A display of multicolored explosions covering the entire screen!

 

[burrito]

Because when Ness is in Brawl, he'll use PK Rockin Omega as his Final Smash. XP

If he were in, that would be pretty awesome. Not awesome enough to put him in brawl, though.

 

[Big-Cat]

What a dumb list. At least if your going to make some sort of logical list against Ness's inclusion you should only have characters that are from the Earthbound/MOTHER series. :/ using characters that aren't even related...is dumb.

I have what to be "logical" reasons as to why Ness won't be in but this is... just stupid.

-Knight

Then let's change that list to this, note, Claus is not an option and this based off of the poll:

Paula
Jeff
Poo
Kumatora

or Ness? if you had to pick one of those characters listed up there or Ness...who would you rather have?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Then let's change that list to this, note, Claus is not an option and this based off of the poll:

Paula
Jeff
Poo
Kumatora

or Ness? if you had to pick one of those characters listed up there or Ness...who would you rather have?

Ness 100% of course

 

[Big-Cat]

Ness 100% of course

Explain or

*in Ganon voice*

YOU MUST DIE!!!!

 

[Kirby knight]

Then let's change that list to this, note, Claus is not an option and this based off of the poll:

Paula
Jeff
Poo
Kumatora

or Ness? if you had to pick one of those characters listed up there or Ness...who would you rather have?

With the additon of Lucas, I would rather have any of those characters more than Ness ( >_> though I am slighly bias towards Poo considering he's my favorite MOTHER/Earthbound character), because they bring much more uniqueness to the table than Ness would if he were to be included. (Though Paula may have lost some of what made her unique because Ness stole some of her moves).

So if I had to pick one it would have to be Poo. I could think of an amazing moveset that Sakurai could make him by utilzing his Starstorm, Brainshock and Mirror ablities. He even could incoporate his "Sword of Kings" into the moveset.

-Knight

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Explain or

*in Ganon voice*

YOU MUST DIE!!!!

Paula - Paula would only be good if Ness was in...But, with the fact that Ness uses the abilities she has in Smash...It would turn out to be a Smash Ness clone that uses frying pans instead of bats...

Jeff - I don't like Jeff at all...He's better than I though...though annoying that I have to keep buying his stuff...but has a horrible design. Also, again without Ness...It would be weird...

Poo - Poo's only good with PK starstorm...Nothing else...They could maybe be creative with Mirror...But in Earthbound, Mirror is worthless...Plus, same with the others

Kumatora - Don't really care for this character at all...

Claus is the only character worthy of being another Mother rep other than Ness

 

[LavisFiend]

@burrito: Read my post carefully. First and foremost, half of their struggles regarding Melee was the small amount of time they had to create it. Brawl has double the developing time. I am not making Sakurai out to be an all powerful being, YOU intrepreted it that way.

Secondly, you did not intrepret the point of my past post correctly, so I will explain.

I was speaking out against the "taking up room" argument. It's BS. People are stuck on the fact that there is a locked limit regarding the roster, which is NOT true. Ness would not be taking "room" from other characters as the overall roster number would adjust accordingly to allow that person in. Point? If a character is going to get in, they will get in, REGARDLESS of the overall # of the slots.

Next time, know what the person is arguing before bringing up things unrelated to the argument.

 

[burrito]

@burrito: Read my post carefully.

Next time, know what the person is arguing before bringing up things unrelated to the argument.

*rolls eyes* Riiiigghhttt. I will be the judge of who should have read whose post more carefully.

First and foremost, half of their struggles regarding Melee was the small amount of time they had to create it. Brawl has double the developing time.

The development time is not even the half of their struggles. There are many other things that are factored in.

I am not making Sakurai out to be an all powerful being, YOU intrepreted it that way.

I never said that you were making Sakurai out be an all powerful being. I said that if you happen to believe that there was no character limit and the only characters who do not make it in are characters that Sakurai doesn't deem "worthy", than you must be in some sort of fantasy land where Sakurai is an all powerful being. I never asserted that you were making that point, that's up to yourself to decide.

Secondly, you did not intrepret the point of my past post correctly, so I will explain.

I was speaking out against the "taking up room" argument. It's BS. People are stuck on the fact that there is a locked limit regarding the roster, which is NOT true. Ness would not be taking "room" from other characters as the overall roster number would adjust accordingly to allow that person in. Point? If a character is going to get in, they will get in, REGARDLESS of the overall # of the slots.

Actually, it seems that I interpretted your post exactly as it was said. There is going to be a limit on the roster, in fact Sakurai says:
"For argument's sake, no matter how much staff there is, with just manpower we can’t just put in everything, and as my own job [read: workload] does not decrease, there is a limit."
Sakurai says himself that there will be a limit to the amount of characters in Brawl. Unfortunately, there probably will be some characters whom Sakurai wanted to add into Brawl, but couldn't. That's just the way things work.

Let's take Ness as an example. Let's say that Ness is added to Brawl, whoopee. Sakurai plans on adding... Claus (for example) as well. First, Ness needs to be remodeled. Secondly, a moveset will be created from scratch for Ness. Third, sounds need to be added. Fourth of all, Ness is added to subspace emissary, trophies are created, etc. Last and most importantly, Ness needs
to be tested and balanced. Other characters moves need to be tweaked to be balanced against Ness as well. Each time a character is added the work to balance the game increases exponentially, as every time the variety of characters increases, the game becomes harder to balance. All of these processes need to be watched over by Sakurai increasing his (I assume) already stressful workload. Now when it comes time to add in Claus, whoops, they wasted too much time, resources, and work. Plus things like the subspace emissary are already established as they are. Claus isn't added to the final product because extra time was taken to add Ness.

MY point? Some characters are not going to get in, the amount of characters in the roster is a very important part of making this decision. Although, there is no literal limit on the amount of character slots, there is a limit workload-wise, time-wise, and balance-wise.

Sakurai's imagination extends leaps and bounds after the roster growth expires. If it were a perfect world there would be 60+ characters in the Smash Bros. roster.

 

[volbound1700]

Doesn't Ness use a bat and yo-yo while Lucas doesn't

They could have different move sets.

 

[burrito]

Doesn't Ness use a bat and yo-yo while Lucas doesn't

They could have different move sets.

Lucas DOES in fact use a bat and a yo-yo in Mother 3, although his weapon of choice is a 2 by 4. Lucas and Ness are very similar characters.

 

[The Great Morphologous]

Technically, wouldn't Jeff just be a clone of Snake?

 

[Big-Cat]

Technically, wouldn't Jeff just be a clone of Snake?

Nerd=Kick-*** spy?

 

[Brawlman]

Nerd=Kick-*** spy?

Yesh!

 

[Big-Cat]

Yesh!

Does that mean Otakon would be a great spy?

That's one of the few things I know about the series.

 

[Timotee]

Wow, I can't believe I 'read' through all that. Granted, I just wanted to see if the points I like were made, and they weren't.

Ness uses a slingshot, which I don't recall seeing on the weapons list in mother 3. The yo-yo in Earthbound is Ness only, not an everybody weapon like in Mother 3.

But I think my favorite point is the picture of Lucas actually using a move. The graphic looks familiar, it looks like psi magnet, but Ness never, ever did a move like that, holding it out in front of him. It's not his fair, that uses 2 hands. Could it be psycho shield? Psycho counter? It could give Lucas the ability to fire that same projectile once, or for a time, or even just add the damage, knockback, or both to his next special. Lucas has moves Ness didn't, Ness has ones Lucas doesn't. Psi magnet and Psycho counter are 2 good examples. There are other attacks they could take from the offensive casters still.

If you really think Sakurai couldn't make an original character out of Lucas, how can you even be looking forward to this game?

 

[raphtmarqui]

Ness's chances arent too good at this point.

 

[ZenJestr]

zomg! Ness and Lucas are clones! BRAWL SUX!!!

seriously how attacks look isnt a nice arguement...

a whole bunch of people had different A moves during the transition of S64-Melee...

 

[pikachun00b7]

Because he's the same ****ing thing as Lucas. God does it really matter if he has black hair or blonde hair?? Yes, that's a great idea let's waste another roster slot with a character that's already pratically in the game. I hope Ness gets the boot and Sakurai is out of his mind if they put him in along with Lucas.

Do you know what clones are in melee?

 

[burrito]

For further discussion of this topic, I suggest you use this thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=118891

 

[Tingle_Stole_My_Pants]

Yikes!

Good lord... I sign up on the Smash World Forums because everyone says it's so much better than the Nintendo Forums, and what's the first thread I check? A debate on whether Ness will be booted because Lucas happens to look similar to him. This is sad. I guess people will be people...

Well, here's my take on the situation: Yes, a garnet looks like a ruby, but that doesn't mean you can sell it to someone for the same price. Yay for vague wisdom chunks! Basically, Lucas looking like Ness means everything that Mario looking like Luigi does, and that Link looking like Young Link does, and that Kirby looking like Jigglypuff does, and that Peach looking kind of like Zelda does, and all those other similarities that mean jack squat. It took me almost a year to get past Jigglypuff's similarity to Kirby and figure out they were nothing alike (note that this was in SSB64). For the longest time I couldn't tell the difference between Link and Young Link (note that this was about 5-6 years ago). Remember complaining about how the clones were "OMGZORZ JUST LEIK ECH OTHR!?!", only to figure out that they only LOOKED like each other, and they really played like two totally different characters? Believe it or not, there's more differences between Mario and Dr. Mario than you'd think. Somebody who's played Dr. Mario for years and never touched Mario would be completely thrown off by those seemingly slight differences. (I know from first-hand experience. That was a bad match...)

In less words, two characters looking similar doesn't mean they are the same character. Saying it does is the same as painting up a random person to look like a famous pop star and expecting them to sing just like them. Ain't gonna happen. It's so easy to tweak just a few variables and change one character into something completely different. I don't care if Lucas has better hair, he's not Ness. Case in point: He has no backpack to carry the baseball bat and infamous Yo-Yo around in. How high do you have to be to say he'll be a clone without having those items to use smash attacks with? Sure, there's hammerspace, but after the commotion Melee caused Sakurai would have to be nuts to make two characters so similar again. Case in point: So far, there isn't a single character revealed on Smash Bros. Dojo who has an appearance or special attack graphic that resembles any of the other characters. (note that I said 'so far'. Let's wait and see.)

And last but not least, Sakurai's quotes have been known to be misleading for a very long time. I've seen countless situations where one person claimed that a quote meant one thing, only to be humiliated just a few days later. I'm sure something like that has happened around here before, too.

We can bicker and argue 'til kingdom come, but the only way anyone will know at all (as opposed to guessing) is when it says so on the pretty little web site, or somebody's holding that disk in their hands.

Is it just me, or does anyone else refer to Dec. 3rd as "Kingdom Come"? =P