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You can test it on Walk-Off Stages.
Ike gets KO'd if the tip of his sword touches the blastzone by doing ftilt. Or with Marth's NeutralB. It's not the same as in other Smash games. (not sure if it's really the sword or the hurtbox because it's hard to tell, but it's definitely not some ECB)
You can test it on Walk-Off Stages.
Ike gets KO'd if the tip of his sword touches the blastzone by doing ftilt. Or with Marth's NeutralB. It's not the same as in other Smash games. (not sure if it's really the sword or the hurtbox because it's hard to tell, but it's definitely not some ESB)
I can test momentarily but in cases like these, those moves would be altering the size of a character's ECB enough that they collide with the blastline, thus resulting in a KO. Keep in mind the tip of Ike's sword has absolutely no hurtbox at all.
Edit: Notice how Ike steps forward and jets his body outward whenever he does his forward tilt. During these frames his ECB extends horizontally, thus making him collide with the blastzone if spaced correctly.
Wait if that were true wouldnt it be possible to be KO'd by using a sword through a very thin wall next to a custom stage blastzone? Wouldnt that be a perfect way to see whos correct or no? Because the tip of ikes sword goes through walls.
Wait if that were true wouldnt it be possible to be KO'd by using a sword through a very thin wall next to a custom stage blastzone? Wouldnt that be a perfect way to see whos correct or no? Because the tip of ikes sword goes through walls.
That would be a simple way to show it off, but it wouldn't show too much. If Yikarur believes it's the hurtbox, Ike's hitboxes would barely (if not ever) cross the wall, and only for a breif moment. Hitboxes on the other hand would go though the wall, but nothing other than that would really happen.
If Ike's ECB would collides with the wall, doing a forward-tilt near the wall would push him back slightly away from the wall and the sword moving though the wall briefly would never kill him.
Yoshis side B is probably the best momentum cancel in the game. Ive tested it on many custom stages and regular stages. You can even cancel the momentum of getting hit by lava at 999% if Yoshi slides off the platform on the custom stage (which makes him able to get out of hitstun while at the speed he was launched) and I tested this with many things but Yoshis side B seems like the only one who cancels momentum to 0 on frame 1 while his side B actually shrinks his hitbox. You can test yourself but make sure you use the right method.
Is the OP gonna update? Or atleast look into it? I know for a fact his side B does make him last longer if done correctly. If you do it wrong Yoshi can actually die earlier.
I can test momentarily but in cases like these, those moves would be altering the size of a character's ECB enough that they collide with the blastline, thus resulting in a KO. Keep in mind the tip of Ike's sword has absolutely no hurtbox at all.
Edit: Notice how Ike steps forward and jets his body outward whenever he does his forward tilt. During these frames his ECB extends horizontally, thus making him collide with the blastzone if spaced correctly.
While research we tested stuff like jumping with dedede at walkoff stages or fairing with sheik on walkoff stages.
They both died while performing the move, so something is "shifting" which causes them to die earlier/later- Whether it's the hurtbox shifting or ECB stuff.. doesn't really matter imo. You can call it what you want
Since there is no debug mode hurtbox shifting sounds nice we just named it like that
Its probably just both. Yoshis jabs(which has a hurtbox at the very end of the jab too) makes yoshi die way to far away from the walkoff blastzone then she should. Or his side smash for example. The but the jab and side smash ebfs or whatever doesnt shift very far and dosnt effect his nose, leg and foot. Thats why his jabs, side smash and nose can go slightly through walls or the ground.
In otherwords yika was right.
Woo, ZSS! Cool research! I tested an interesting combination of moves a while back. It turns out that air dodges are one of the fastest actions a player can take out of getting hit. Air dodges can only be interrupted be zair.
So I tried air dodge to zair to see if it yielded stronger player DI during the zair animation.
It didn't.
But I figured that would be an interesting, though small, contribution to this work.
Sonic's Neutral-B (Homing attack) has absolutely no horizontal movement so wouldn't that be the best option to momentum cancel for him? Can someone test this?
Sonic's Neutral-B (Homing attack) has absolutely no horizontal movement so wouldn't that be the best option to momentum cancel for him? Can someone test this?
maybe if you're not in hitstun at all when you do it, however if you try to activate it while in hitstun it would probably still have some of the momentum while you do the attack, and also doesn't allow you to influence at all during the animation. I know this at least happens with Fox and his shine. It might shift the hurtbox down since he's sorta ducking when he does it
Are you sure Kirby's down special does nothing to momentum cancel? If not, would there be a way to launch one's self sideways while doing it for a ridiculous, hard to hurt, full body projectile?
We tested everything with the A button + Controlstick, since u can buffer aerials with A no matter whats on your cstick.. Buffering out of knockback with cstick is kinda weird :/
Are you sure Kirby's down special does nothing to momentum cancel? If not, would there be a way to launch one's self sideways while doing it for a ridiculous, hard to hurt, full body projectile?
I've found a few new things about this (horizontal only):
[I'll post quotes from me where you see the % a characters gets KO'd from an attack (there are 2 for everyone since I tested with different moves (Luigi bthrow and Mewtwo bthrow)]
Here's a quote of my full post in case anyone wants to know it more specific:
It actually did make a difference even at lower %.
Cloud: 143 % (147 % with fully charged limit)
__________
Alright so... horizontally, moves will have different results depending on the angle the move hits at I guess. Which makes things more complicated concerning the survival of the characters.
For example I tested:
- Mewtwos bthrow:
DK dies at 142 %, Bowser at 141 % (with doublejump: 146 %)
- With Luigis bthrow I get these results:
DK dies at 143 %, Bowser dies at 149 % (with doublejump: 155 %)
Why is it like that? I have no idea besides guessing the angle a move hits towards matters a lot? Then again Mewtwos bthrow has 47 and Luigis has 45, so it isn't really that big of a difference.
Oh well, I still wanted to see more to see any kind of lead that shows why there are such differences... though it didn't help finding out anything for that, but the results are still pretty interesting.
Tested: KO-% of the characters, if Luigi bthrows them (on the left edge of Battlefields Omega Stage (Wii U)). No Rage (Training Mode). Opponent DIs (0°, to survive longer)!
Very Heavy 1. Bowser: 149 % (with doublejump 155 %)
2. Dedede: 148 % (with dair 149 %)
3. DK: 144 % (with uair 145 %) [with doublejump or upB he gets KO'd at 142!]
4. Yoshi: 143 % (-)
5. Wario: 142 % (with doublejump 143 %, with fair 145 %)
6. Charizard: 140 % (with doublejump or fair 145 %)
Mewtwo 53. Mewtwo: 108 % (with doublejump 112 %, with sideB 113 %, with fair 115 %)
(average % (without moves to help): 127.4)
As you can see, some heavy characters who would usually live longer are pretty far down.
I also found out a few new tricks for surviving while playing around with hurtbox shifting.
The most interesting ones are probably:
2. Dedede: 148 % (with dair 149 %) 21. Samus: 128 % (with doublejump 130 %, with downB 131 %) 42. MetaKnight: 121 % (with uair 122 %)
Since Luigis bthrow and Mewtwos bthrow bring such different results I really want to test Mewtwos bthrow again (while also trying out the new momentum cancels / hurtbox shifting), so I'll probably do that in the near future to compare them.
Of course that doesn't cover every move / angle moves can hit, so don't except this to be 100 % accurate for all of them.
The Mewtwo bthrow data will probably show nicely how different all of these numbers are so stay tuned (in the meantime you can look at the previous Mewtwo bthrow data which is currently still in the OP in a spoiler).
I really wasn't sure what to do with these different results and if it's even worth doing all of this since it changes for other moves. It actually took me about 5 hours pretty much nonstop testing to complete Luigis bthrow list, but I learned quite a bit during the process so it was really interesting for me.
I hope you'll enjoy it as well and keep the data in mind. Sometimes hitting opponents to the sides has such different results that it won't always be the best choice to try to KO your opponent sideways.
Edit:
Mewtwos list:
Tested: KO-% of the characters, if Mewtwo Bthrows them (on the left edge of Battlefields Omega Stage (Wii U)). No Rage (Training Mode). Opponent DIs (180°, to survive longer)!
Super Heavy 1. DK: 142 % (-) [uair doesn't help | he gets KO'd at 141 with doublejump or upB]
2. Bowser: 141 % (with doublejump 146 %)
Very Heavy 3. Dedede: 137 % (with dair 139 %)
4. ROB: 133 % (-)
5. Charizard: 131 % (with fair 134 %, with doublejump 136 %)
5. Yoshi: 131 % (-)
My results are probably not even set in stone for sure. I'm guessing they could change depending on the % you test with (really strong moves could show different results, same with really weak ones), but it should be a good guideline.
DK can survive longer at pretty high % with uair. And doublejumping and upBing can KO him sometimes if he's too near to the blastzone.
DK: 144 % (with uair 145 %) [with doublejump or upB he gets KO'd at 142!]
With a different attack to KO DK he died at 142 %, and there the %-difference wasn't big enough for uair to help him to stay alive longer. He still died earlier with doublejump or upB, though.
DK: 142 % (-) [uair doesn't help | he gets KO'd at 141 with doublejump or upB]
With Dedede I survived longer if I used dair:
Dedede: 148 % (with dair 149 %)
Dedede: 137 % (with dair 139 %)
Luigi can survive longer with fair or doublejump sometimes:
Luigi: 132 % (with doublejump or fair 133 %)
Luigi: 124 % (with doublejump or fair 125 %)
Same with Peach:
Peach: 117 % (with doublejump or fair 119 %)
Peach: 122 % (with doublejump or fair 123 %)
Your tests show that Rosalina doesn't live longer with fair, but with doublejump she does (which is what I had from my previous testings (though I never tested fair)), but now I got:
Doublejump didn't seem to help at all. Fair helps a lot, but downB is still the best.
For Samus you didn't list anything, I found out this:
Samus: 128 % (with doublejump or uair 130 %, with downB 131 %)
Samus: 129 % (with doublejump or uair 131 %, with downB 132 %)
She survives the longest with downB (which seems to be the best option), since her hurtbox gets so small. Doublejump can help as well, but there shouldn't be a need to use it since you can always downB.
For Pit you didn't list anything, while Dark Pit only lives longer with fair, but I got these results:
Pit: 121 % (with doublejump or fair 124 %)
Dark Pit: 121 % (with doublejump or fair 124 %)
Pit: 125 % (with doublejump or fair 127 %)
Dark Pit: 125 % (with doublejump or fair 127 %)
They were always the same and doublejump or fair helped to survive (fair seems to be the best option to avoid wasting jumps).
For Palutena you have doublejump and fair as +1, on one of my results she lives longer with doublejump:
Palutena: 118 % (with fair 119 %, with doublejump 120 %)
Palutena: 123 % (with doublejump or fair 124 %)
So doublejump probably helps the most?
For Marth you have fair, doublejump and upB listed, I have more accurate results again I guess:
Marth: 122 % (with fair or upB 126 %, with doublejump 127 %)
Marth: 119 % (with upB 121 %, with doublejump or fair 122 %)
So it seems that doublejump > fair > upB.
You listed Duck Hunt as having +1 for doublejump and fair, I got more accurate results:
This one is really tricky. I guess for the 2nd one the % difference wasn't big enough for uair to help. I have no idea why jump helps at lower %, but I guess he had more time to do it before reaching the blastzone.
Jumping seems to be the safest bet here I guess? Maybe it could be looked into with weaker attacks to see more differences.
Just tested and neither uair nor dair helped anything. Fair is the only one that seems to help, he moves his whole body forward for the attack, so it makes sense that it does.
Man I imagined it would help more than 1-2% for most characters. Guess it's not as useful as I thought as this will hardly ever help. Might be worth doing, but a jump can be way more valuable while someone is trying to edgeguard you.
How do you test this? Considering we are still looking for any momentum canceling with Bayonetta, Corrin, and for some reason no one has figured out if Cloud as anything yet? Someone tell me how to test this or test it themselves plz. This will help alot, especially with Bayonetta because she is light af
Well we might add the new dlcs to the list. For now, just use some move that barely kills.. go in training mode and always add 1 percent until the character dies. then at the percent he dies try using moves, jump or something else to survive longer. pretty simple actually
How do you test this? Considering we are still looking for any momentum canceling with Bayonetta, Corrin, and for some reason no one has figured out if Cloud as anything yet? Someone tell me how to test this or test it themselves plz. This will help alot, especially with Bayonetta because she is light af
It says to the sides Lucario can use fair or doublejump to live longer (I had the same results in my own testings).
Doublejump helps a tiny bit more than fair.
Just try to hold back to the stage and spam jump or fair if you don't know the timing or watch the video in the OP to get a general idea.
The OP has it listed as 1 % longer with fair and 2 % longer with doublejump.
My results are these:
(first number is KO % without fair or doublejump) Lucario: 123 % (fair 125 %, doublejump 127 %)
(second one is tested with a different (stronger) move to hit Lucario away) Lucario: 129 % (fair 132 %, doublejump 133 %)
Obviously the differences will be bigger with moves that have less knockback, though angle or something like that might also play a role.
It says to the sides Lucario can use fair or doublejump to live longer (I had the same results in my own testings).
Doublejump helps a tiny bit more than fair.
Just try to hold back to the stage and spam jump or fair if you don't know the timing or watch the video in the OP to get a general idea.
The OP has it listed as 1 % longer with fair and 2 % longer with doublejump.
My results are these:
(first number is KO % without fair or doublejump) Lucario: 123 % (fair 125 %, doublejump 127 %)
(second one is tested with a different (stronger) move to hit Lucario away) Lucario: 129 % (fair 132 %, doublejump 133 %)
Obviously the differences will be bigger with moves that have less knockback, though angle or something like that might also play a role.
I just watched the OP vid and scanned through the OP post and forgive me if I am mistaken or missed something, but do these tricks to survive longer only apply to the side blast zones? The vid shows fighters getting launched horizontally towards the side blast zone.
What about a move that launches you straight up? Suppose you get thrown up from mewtwo's upthrow - If your hitstun ends before you touch the top blast zone but you're about to hit it and get KO'd, is there any move (like jump or fair) you can do to survive a few percent longer? Was this ever tested?
I just watched the OP vid and scanned through the OP post and forgive me if I am mistaken or missed something, but do these tricks to survive longer only apply to the side blast zones? The vid shows fighters getting launched horizontally towards the side blast zone.
What about a move that launches you straight up? Suppose you get thrown up from mewtwo's upthrow - If your hitstun ends before you touch the top blast zone but you're about to hit it and get KO'd, is there any move (like jump or fair) you can do to survive a few percent longer? Was this ever tested?
Most of the time hitstun won't end if you die off the top. If it does, then it's likely possible that some moves could help to shift your hurtbox lower. I don't think it was ever tested super thoroughly and as I said it's almost always the case that you just can't do anything before dying off the top. Just make sure you DI / vector well to survive longer. I think I've tried testing it but not seeing any point / way to be able to do anything really.
(in Brawl it was best to use an aerial and immediately inputting a fastfall to lower your upwards momentum, but like I said it doesn't seem that you have time to even initiate any aerial in Smash4, since there's more hitstun)
So I looked at lucario and olimar B stick thingy not only do you die earlier you also don't get any momentum
(on smashvile with luigi back throw EDIT: the %'s is when you live un less i say otherwise)
Lucario: 
127% di in
128% di in Fair
130% di in jump
115% di in SideB (just don't SideB in the blast line)
Olimar: 
120% di in
121% di in Fair
119% di in jump
119% di in SideB
Lucario is 99 units heavy and olimar 79 units. Simple math and we have 20 units that's a lot right? But it's just 7% in game, but that's not all! Pikachu dies at 120% while olimar dies at 121% and both are 79 units heavy.
Olimar has an max air speed of 0.82
Pikachu has an max air speed of 0.9118
That's 0.0918 almost 0.1 that I think is why pikachu dies 1% earlier. Also in that weight tier are kurby and fox
Fox's air speed is 0.96 and dies at 114%
Kurby's air speed is 0.8 and he dies at 121% ~ 122%
Fox is fast faller so more data yay
Olimar 1.35
Pikachu 1.55
Kurby 1.23
Fox 2.05
The faster you fall the earlier you die of luigi's back throw. Wich is logical because you have less vertical knock back.
So it's fall speed and air speed with weight times knock back? Idk
Also found out that olimar randomly dies sometimes at 120% just di'ing in, and kurby at 121%. Something with the spinning animation?
And like I said wave bouncing and B reversing out of hit stun won't get you any momentum. Tried it a lot but I just fall straight down every time.
You could di out at the end of hit stun and use that to reverse your momentum but it's already "your" momentum and not your opponents knock back.
Turned out to be more then move momentum canceling xD
Hi all. Recently I started experimenting with airdodging and how it influences survivability. Though detrimental when launched horizontally, it has proven to be exceptional when dealing with vertical knockback. Some characters will actually survive a percent or two longer if they mash airdodge when being sent to the ceiling, while others will die sooner, and though some players seem to be aware of this fact, no easily discoverable table existed displaying the survivability results of every character mashing airdodge. So, I tested all the characters in a high knockback situation, posted a short video about it, and compiled all the results:
+2% +1% 0%
Everyone Else -1%
-2%
(The cause is probably the same as mashing jump while flying toward a side blast line, so I thought it appropriate to include it in this thread.)
