Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

Yeah lol thank God Ganon is much more simplistic than fox.

 

[Swagic]

Please that extensive. It won't be that complex. But that would be nice.

Oh, you can delete a bunch of old/useless threads (aka most of them) please just read them before you delete... We don't need another gimpy incident.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I won't be deleting anything quite yet. Got a lot of reading to do in order to know what to do as a mod.

 

[Swagic]

Okay. Be nice if that happened at some point, though. Although I understand, goal #1 is to be a mod longer than Ace.

 

[-ACE-]

Unsticky >>>>>> delete.

 

[Swagic]

Oh, by the way, PSA to the dozen or so new Ganons we've picked up- don't bother trying to read every thread on this board. If it's locked, ignore it. Most of these threads are actually pretty useless.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Here's my ideas for how to use your mod powers for good around here. Some of this stuff you can do easily. Other stuff will take time. RedmanSSBM

-Unsticky and sticky certain things. Don't delete any threads unless they have absolutely nothing to do with Melee Ganon.
-Create a thread that links to some useful threads/posts and sticky it.
-Reorganize or create a new video archive.
-Take all the best posts from this thread and put them in a new thread. The Ganon boards Hall of fame so to speak.
-Categorize those posts. (matchups, edgeguarding, DI, etc.) Create sub categories.
-Ban all Sheik mains and anyone here who changes mains.

 

[Swagic]

-Ban all Sheik mains and anyone here who changes mains.

This might be the most useful mod power

 

[RedmanSSBM]

-Ban all Sheik mains and anyone here who changes mains.

I'm still maining Falcon btw, so I guess I better ban myself

I like the other suggestions though. Some of them might take a lot of time but could be very beneficial.

 

[-ACE-]

-Ban all Sheik mains

ROFL. ****ing agreed.

FULL BLOWN BAN.

 

[Swagic]

I was at a tourney yesterday listening to someone (Who clearly doesn't play him) trying to teach someone else about Falcon/Ganon. He said, directly, "fsmash is your best tool. Just keep using it." I almost died of laughter. I haven't been around that long (about 6 months as of like last week), but I do know that's not true.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I think the hardest thing will be getting all of the golden nuggets of Ganon info that are in the 646 pages of this thread and putting them into a single sticky that links to all of them. I can see that taking the most time for sure.

 

[-ACE-]

Fsmash is in the running for Ganons worst move LOL. I'm so glad since I started shield dropping, if I miss a drop I just spot dodge instead of accidental fsmash. That really gets you bodied.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

The only time I know fsmash is actually useful is if you hard read a floatie is trying to trade with you or land or something and an fsmash will kill. Also as a finisher for chaingrabbing Sheik.

Completely useless otherwise.

 

[-ACE-]

It has uses, like ending sheik cg. But that's the only really good purpose it has. At least utilt is optimal for broken shield and rest punish, and you can edgeguard with it. Also if you Amsah tech rest, warlock punch is optimal after tournament winner/ledgedash +dashjump.

 

[Waldoring]

Fsmash beats Marth's fsmash if timed correctly because of the pullback/step forward each character does. Not amazingly useful, but pretty funny.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Okay, so I was browsing through this thread's old pages and I came across some code that Magus wrote for percents that you can get the crotch-box oh upsmash to combo, assuming your opponent doesn't DI.

To quote Magus directly:

Hitting them up and off the top at the higher ranges isn't the only way to kill them with the u-smash after a stomp. The timing is more difficult, but you can also charge into the crotch hit at lower percents to kill or set up an edgeguard off the side. Stomp to u-smash KO also works on a few other characters, but the ranges are smaller and are stage dependant.



All damages are before the d-air and with it doing the full 22%. If it's stale the percents listed will be lower by however much less damage the stomp does. The numbers are also when the stomp hits just before landing and the u-smash is started immediately out of the l-cancel lag. If it hits high and/or the u-smash is started late the numbers needed to kill would be higher obviously. Doesn't work if they DI the stomp horizontally.

Top Leg Hit (90°)
Largest hitbox on the outer part of his leg. Farthest vertical and horizontal reach. Sends straight up. Reaches through all lower platforms so only the top platforms can mess it up.

Middle Thigh Hit (80°)
Smallest hitbox along his thigh. In the middle vertically and farthest towards his back horizontally. Sends mostly up but slightly away (same angle as Fox's u-smash). Same power as the top hit but if they DI it inwards for a crotch hit or top hit they'll go almost straight up and die a bit sooner.

Bottom Crotch Hit (45°)
2nd largest hitbox centered in the area in front of his junk. Lowest vertically and in the middle horizontally. Sends diagonally up and away with about the same power as Marth's tipped f-smash. If they DI this outwards for DI on the other hits or trying to techroll away they're pretty much dead. The window to get CF with this hit between them hitting the ground and being able to tech while being below the thigh hitbox is pretty small compared to Fox/Falco.

Below is the code from that post that actually shows the data with the correct colors. I just pasted the code into here and changed it to BB code editor, and then changed it back to rich text editor, and it somehow made it work.

Falco
YS [Lands on Plat-1 7+(inside)/12+(outside); Plat-2 33+]
PS [Lands on Plat-1 9+]
BF [Lands on Plat-1 12+; Plat-2 46+]
FoD [Lands on Plat-1 0+/13+(varies); Plat-2 34+]
DL [Lands on Plat-1 17+; Plat-2 43+]


Top Leg Hit (90°)
Combo: 19-63

KO Ranges (DI Up&Towards / DI Towards or Away)
33/35 - 63 (PS Rock-Top)
37/40 - 63 (YS Plat-2)
41/43 - 63 (YS Plat-1)
41/43 - 63 (BF Plat-2)
43/44 - 63 (PS Plat-1)
43/45 - 63 (FoD Plat-2)
* 45/47 - 63 (YS Base)
45/47 - 63 (BF Plat-1)
* 47/48 - 63 (PS Base)
* 47/49 - 63 (FD Base)
* 49/51 - 63 (BF Base)
49/51 - 63 (DL Plat-2)
* 50/51 - 63 (FoD Base)
51/53 - 63 (DL Plat-1)
* 54/56 - 63 (DL Base)


Bottom Crotch Hit (45°)
Combo: 13-51

KO Ranges (DI Away / DI Towards / DI Up&Towards)
13(-P)/25(GP)/35(-P) - 51 (YS 1/4 Length)
13(--)/25(G-)/36(G-) - 51 (FoD 1/4 Length)
13(GP)/26(GP)/39(GP) - 51 (BF 1/4 Length)
13(--)/27(G-)/38(G-) - 51 (FD 1/4 Length)
13(--)/28(GP)/39(GP) - 51 (DL 1/4 Length)
13(GP)/29(GP)/42(-P) - 51 (PS 1/4 Length)
* 13(G-)/31(G-)/41(-P) - 51 (YS Center)
* 13(G-)/32(G-)/45(-P) - 51 (FoD Center)
* 15(G-)/33(G-)/47(-P) - 51 (BF Center)
* 18(G-)/34(G-)/51(GP) - 51 (DL Center)
* 20(G-)/37(G-)/49(G-) - 51 (FD Center)
* 21(G-)/37(G-)/50(--) - 51 (PS Center)

G:Edgehogged starting from this percent. If blank they either die from the blastzone or can't reach the edge.
P:Stomp at this percent will put them above a platform on that part of the stage and can't be done from the floor.


Fox
YS [Lands on Plat-1 15+(inside)/21+(outside); Plat-2 37+]
PS [Lands on Plat-1 18+]
BF [Lands on Plat-1 21+; Plat-2 46+]
FoD [Lands on Plat-1 0+/21+(varies); Plat-2 38+]
DL [Lands on Plat-1 25+; Plat-2 44+]


Top Leg Hit (90°)
Combo: 20-55

KO Ranges (DI Up&Towards / DI Towards or Away)
30/33 - 55 (PS Rock-Top)
33/35 - 55 (YS Plat-2)
37/38 - 55 (YS Plat-1)
37/39 - 55 (BF Plat-2)
38/40 - 55 (PS Plat-1)
38/40 - 55 (FoD Plat-2)
* 40/42 - 55 (YS Base)
40/42 - 55 (BF Plat-1)
* 41/43 - 55 (PS Base)
* 42/44 - 55 (FD Base)
* 44/45 - 55 (BF Base)
* 44/45 - 55 (FoD Base)
44/45 - 55 (DL Plat-2)
45/47 - 55 (DL Plat-1)
* 48/50 - 55 (DL Base)


Bottom Crotch Hit (45°)
Combo: 14-43

KO Ranges (DI Away / DI Towards / DI Up&Towards)
14(--)/25(-P)/32(-P) - 43 (YS 1/4 Length)
14(G-)/29(--)/36(--) - 43 (FoD 1/4 Length)
* 18(G-)/30(--)/38(-P) - 43 (YS Center)
14(G-)/30(GP)/41(-P) - 43 (BF 1/4 Length)
14(G-)/30(G-)/43(--) - 43 (FD 1/4 Length)
14(G-)/32(GP)/--(--) - 43 (DL 1/4 Length)
18(GP)/33(-P)/41(-P) - 43 (PS 1/4 Length)
* 20(G-)/35(--)/43(-P) - 43 (FoD Center)
* 21(G-)/36(G-)/--(--) - 43 (BF Center)
* 22(G-)/39(G-)/--(--) - 43 (DL Center)
* 23(G-)/39(G-)/--(--) - 43 (FD Center)
* 24(G-)/40(--)/--(--) - 43 (PS Center)

G:Edgehogged starting from this percent. If blank they either die from the blastzone or can't reach the edge.
P:Stomp at this percent will put them above a platform on that part of the stage and can't be done from the floor.


Captain Falcon
YS [Lands on Plat-1 0+(inside)/7+(outside); Plat-2 29+]
PS [Lands on Plat-1 3+]
BF [Lands on Plat-1 7+; Plat-2 43+]
FoD [Lands on Plat-1 0+/7+(varies); Plat-2 30+]
DL [Lands on Plat-1 12+; Plat-2 40+]


Top Leg Hit (90°)
Combo: 15-66

KO Ranges (DI Up&Towards / DI Towards or Away)
35/37 - 66 (PS Rock-Top)
40/42 - 66 (YS Plat-2)
44/47 - 66 (YS Plat-1)
45/47 - 66 (BF Plat-2)
47/49 - 66 (PS Plat-1)
47/49 - 66 (FoD Plat-2)
* 49/52 - 66 (YS Base)
50/52 - 66 (BF Plat-1)
* 51/53 - 66 (PS Base)
* 52/55 - 66 (FD Base)
* 54/56 - 66 (BF Base)
54/56 - 66 (DL Plat-2)
* 55/57 - 66 (FoD Base)
57/59 - 66 (DL Plat-1)
* 61/64 - 66 (DL Base)


Bottom Crotch Hit (45°)
Combo: 8-46

KO Ranges (DI Away / DI Towards / DI Up&Towards)
18(GP)/33(-P)/41(-P) - 46 (YS 1/4 Length)
14(G-)/39(-P)/--(--) - 46 (FoD 1/4 Length)
* 22(G-)/39(-P)/--(--) - 46 (YS Center)
22(GP)/43(-P)/--(--) - 46 (PS 1/4 Length)
18(GP)/43(-P)/--(--) - 46 (BF 1/4 Length)
18(G-)/46(--)/--(--) - 46 (FD 1/4 Length)
19(GP)/--(--)/--(--) - 46 (DL 1/4 Length)
* 23(G-)/46(-P)/--(--) - 46 (FoD Center)
* 24(G-)/--(--)/--(--) - 46 (BF Center)
* 26(G-)/--(--)/--(--) - 46 (DL Center)
* 28(G-)/--(--)/--(--) - 46 (FD Center)
* 28(G-)/--(--)/--(--) - 46 (PS Center)

G:Edgehogged starting from this percent. If blank they either die from the blastzone or can't reach the edge.
P:Stomp at this percent will put them above a platform on that part of the stage and can't be done from the floor.


Roy
YS [Lands on Plat-1 0+(inside)/2+(outside); Plat-2 22+]
PS [Lands on Plat-1 0+]
BF [Lands on Plat-1 3+; Plat-2 33+]
FoD [Lands on Plat-1 0+/3+(varies); Plat-2 23+]
DL [Lands on Plat-1 7+; Plat-2 31+]


Top Leg Hit (90°)
Combo: 6-40

KO Ranges (DI Up&Towards / DI Towards or Away)
21/23 - 40 (PS Rock-Top)
25/27 - 40 (YS Plat-2)
29/30 - 40 (YS Plat-1)
30/31 - 40 (BF Plat-2)
31/33 - 40 (PS Plat-1)
31/33 - 40 (FoD Plat-2)
* 33/34 - 40 (YS Base)
33/36 - 40 (BF Plat-1)
* 34/36 - 40 (PS Base)
* 35/38 - 40 (FD Base)
* 38/40 - 40 (BF Base)
38/40 - 40 (DL Plat-2)
* 39/40 - 40 (FoD Base)
40/-- - 40 (DL Plat-1)
* --/-- - 40 (DL Base)


Bottom Crotch Hit (45°)
Combo: 0-24


Donkey Kong
YS [Lands on Plat-1 8+(inside)/13+(outside); Plat-2 32+]
PS [Lands on Plat-1 10+]
BF [Lands on Plat-1 13+; Plat-2 43+]
FoD [Lands on Plat-1 0+/13+(varies); Plat-2 33+]
DL [Lands on Plat-1 17+; Plat-2 41+]


Top Leg Hit (90°)
Combo: 7-49

KO Ranges (DI Up&Towards / DI Towards or Away)
27/29 - 49 (PS Rock-Top)
33/35 - 49 (YS Plat-2)
38/40 - 49 (YS Plat-1)
38/40 - 49 (BF Plat-2)
40/41 - 49 (PS Plat-1)
41/43 - 49 (FoD Plat-2)
* 42/44 - 49 (YS Base)
44/45 - 49 (BF Plat-1)
* 44/47 - 49 (PS Base)
* 46/49 - 49 (FD Base)
48/-- - 49 (DL Plat-2)
* 49/-- - 49 (BF Base)
* 49/-- - 49 (FoD Base)
--/-- - 49 (DL Plat-1)
* --/-- - 49 (DL Base)


Sheik
YS [Lands on Plat-1 1+(inside)/6+(outside); Plat-2 25+]
PS [Lands on Plat-1 3+]
BF [Lands on Plat-1 7+; Plat-2 34+]
FoD [Lands on Plat-1 0+/7+(varies); Plat-2 25+]
DL [Lands on Plat-1 11+; Plat-2 32+]


Top Leg Hit (90°)
Combo: 7-36

KO Ranges (DI Up&Towards / DI Towards or Away)
19/22 - 36 (PS Rock-Top)
24/25 - 36 (YS Plat-2)
27/30 - 36 (YS Plat-1)
27/30 - 36 (BF Plat-2)
30/31 - 36 (PS Plat-1)
30/32 - 36 (FoD Plat-2)
* 31/34 - 36 (YS Base)
32/34 - 36 (BF Plat-1)
* 33/35 - 36 (PS Base)
* 34/36 - 36 (FD Base)
* 36/-- - 36 (BF Base)
* 36/-- - 36 (FoD Base)
36/-- - 36 (DL Plat-2)
--/-- - 36 (DL Plat-1)
* --/-- - 36 (DL Base)

 

[Swagic]

Oh, Magus, how we miss you.

 

[SwiftNinjaBlackMan]

http://imgur.com/gallery/SoKczHe thats what its like when Fox is all over the place and you land a F-air lmaoooooooo

 

[Divinokage]

http://imgur.com/gallery/SoKczHe thats what its like when Fox is all over the place and you land a F-air lmaoooooooo

LOL definitely sharing this.

 

[-ACE-]

Lost to Orp's Fox again 2-1, close but not quite capitalizing on mistakes as much as I should. Also lost to our resident doc player, DAMN I forgot how much patience is required to deal with insane pill camping. Lost 2-1 to him also, attacking too much/too anxiously. Beat a sheik and two foxes along the way also. Nothing recorded. One of the foxes I beat was this guy lol: https://youtu.be/pixf8d_Od7M

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Dang all that tech skill only to lose to Ganon's fist rofl.

 

[-ACE-]

Dang all that tech skill only to lose to Ganon's fist rofl.

Once he landed a shine he was pretty devastating lol, but his neutral vs Ganon needs work. My edgeguarding was a lot better vs him than it was vs orp too. I 2-0'd him but it was close.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Once he landed a shine he was pretty devastating lol, but his neutral vs Ganon needs work. My edgeguarding was a lot better vs him than it was vs orp too. I 2-0'd him but it was close.

Yeah that's the only time that it can actually get scary when they do the waveshining and shield pressure damn-near perfectly. I imagine his combos are pretty good too. If he learned to play neutral he'd definitely be a menace. Could use some tips from Zidane

 

[Swagic]

I'm going to show my inexperience with this one, but anyways...

So whenever someone asks how to do better, or someone is giving advice on playing a full set, the idea of "adapting to your opponent" comes up. I get the idea of reads in micro situations, but what does adapting on a large scale mean? How do you make the reads? How can you differentiate between a habit and a mixup in game one, first stock? And, most importantly, how the HELL do you notice those things quickly enough to adapt by the next game, let alone within that same stock?

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I'm going to show my inexperience with this one, but anyways...

So whenever someone asks how to do better, or someone is giving advice on playing a full set, the idea of "adapting to your opponent" comes up. I get the idea of reads in micro situations, but what does adapting on a large scale mean? How do you make the reads? How can you differentiate between a habit and a mixup in game one, first stock? And, most importantly, how the HELL do you notice those things quickly enough to adapt by the next game, let alone within that same stock?

A lot of it comes from experience and knowing how humans work within in the game. A lot of what reading is is being used to the most common thing that people do, and countering that thing directly with a move that shuts it down.

You learn more as you play this game that there are certain habits that people share, especially at a mid-level. This is apparently true when you look at the teching patters of players who are being tech-chased. Sometimes you might think it's random, but there are specific scenarios where people really don't want to tech towards the edge, in fear that they will die, so instead they tech towards the center, only to be hit with a Falcon knee.

You will learn these habits the more you play players of a particular level. The more aware you become of habits like these, the better you'll be able to make reads.

 

[F. Stein]

If something happens twice, example being a tech or a roll habit, I'm usually going to bank on it happening again. After I punish it, I revert back to an observation mindset. If they choose the exact same option when I'm in my observation mindset I move to exploint mindset and start autopunishing that choice. It's probably a really bad habit but that's been how I've moved through opponents at my level.

 

[-ACE-]

It's almost always worth trying to punish tech in place first imo (unless you've played them often). Try em with that dsmash. If they're rolling, it's MOC (multiple option coverage) or hard read based on risk vs reward. I hate when they roll toward ledge and I didn't fair them.

 

[Bwmat]

I specifically read roll towards edge for 'better' players and it works surprisingly often lol.

 

[XLAX_OVERDOSAGE]

I find it's a ***** against sheik in neutral on the ground, especially when she's at low percents. It seems like spacing bairs/uairs safely could be a decent option to not get shieldgrabbed or get grabbed as eaily out of the end lag. It seems like tilts won't do as much when she CCs as she may have an easier time grabbing afterwards. Her crouch also stops ganon from being able to jab/grab. Shieldgrabbing a dash attack, or dair > grab could be decent examples of securing a grab at lower percents.

Got any advice?

 

[-ACE-]

I find it's a ***** against sheik in neutral on the ground, especially when she's at low percents. It seems like spacing bairs/uairs safely could be a decent option to not get shieldgrabbed or get grabbed as eaily out of the end lag. It seems like tilts won't do as much when she CCs as she may have an easier time grabbing afterwards. Her crouch also stops ganon from being able to jab/grab. Shieldgrabbing a dash attack, or dair > grab could be decent examples of securing a grab at lower percents.

Got any advice?

As long as you aren't throwing out moves aimlessly, yeah you can space bairs, smart ftilts and dtilts, and aerial baits. Everything has to have a purpose though. Fullhop uair at a safe/medium distance is good (not just in this matchup) and underused. It doesn't require any tech skill and can bait her without sacrificing hardly any options. After fullhop uair you can easily falling wL, dj plat wL, falling uair (good), or dj uair/retreating fair. You really have to have godlike patience and make good decisions. You want her to come to you, but don't let yourself get cornered near ledge. Be very selective and careful going for grabs near ledge; it's usually better to take ledge and either quickly try to regain center stage, or patiently wait until you have an option to do so. Don't catch yourself going for reads in micro situations, try to react to exactly what she's doing... Like, if your patience is rewarded and she dash attacks your shield, you need to realize whether the grab opportunity is there or not, and when it is, time it perfectly. Don't go for grabs when they SHFFL a fair on the top of your shield, they have frame advantage and can just dd grab you. Just take note of how they play and try not to give her any openings. The more patient you are in neutral, the more decision making they have to make. Punishing Ganon is too easy for them, but neutral actually requires mental effort. Try different aerial baits or, when at a safe distance, take a platform and come back down, bait her with a dj, or even a "spammed" aerial... But never do a SHFFL'd aerial close enough for her to run and grab you. Also if you late dair their shield, you can often side-b their grab attempt. You have to take some risks of course but be patient and make the most of every free opening that comes your way.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Sheik can spot dodge many aerials/timings and punish you even if the aerial would have been safe on shield. ****ing biatch. Good thing most sheiks don't abuse spot dodge like doc mains do.

 

[-ACE-]

Sheik can spot dodge many aerials/timings and punish you even if the aerial would have been safe on shield. ****ing biatch. Good thing most sheiks don't abuse spot dodge like doc mains do.

Seems like extra invective to try a tomahawk

 

[Coastward]

guys im picking up fox.

im sorry.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

guys im picking up fox.

im sorry.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Seems like extra invective to try a tomahawk

Oh I do believe me. But she can just do that spotdodge punish almost on reaction to some aerials.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

https://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/v/62656785 at 1:11:18 i play a cflacon trikrome. fun to watch. i also played one more person earlier but watching that match up vs marth doesnt do justice to the actual meta. fun to watch for style points.

 

[-ACE-]

https://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/v/62656785 at 1:11:18 i play a cflacon trikrome. fun to watch. i also played one more person earlier but watching that match up vs marth doesnt do justice to the actual meta. fun to watch for style points.

It's on YouTube my man

https://youtu.be/Ij-HvXVVY7o

 

[Thomas Tipman]

It's on YouTube my man

https://youtu.be/Ij-HvXVVY7o

i like how i won the first match you jumped up hype in the background behind me. ganon energy is electric!!

 

[-ACE-]

i like how i won the first match you jumped up hype in the background behind me. ganon energy is electric!!

I was hype lol. I wanted you to clutch it out, I lost to Eli last stock game 3 also, 2 weeks ago.