Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Coastward]

I'm not sure how I'm feeling about entering tournaments lately, but I feel like I definitely need a break of some sort. I'm getting more and more involved with my school work and getting more into Game Development and spending so much time trying to get good in Melee is getting in the way of those things I want to accomplish. I still want to go to tournaments and hang out with friends and have fun playing friendlies, but my mind is just not suit for tournament play right now and maybe a break can help with that, and maybe it can't. I don't know for sure.

I would like to do doubles more, as my mentality when playing doubles is different when I have a team mate who is also hungry for playing well in doubles. If I team with someone it won't be just anybody, it needs to be someone who I feel like I can do well with, but I'm definitely not against trying out just doubles for the next few weeks or so to see how differently I think there.

Either way, I'm probably not gonna get much better at this game over the next several months because I'm just not gonna have enough time to train and study in Melee and do the same thing for both college and game development, on top of my part-time job.

exact same situation here too. really only going to big house to chill and see everyone before i commit to school until april.

 

[Bwmat]

I failed to get revenge on the icies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7gF_xYYNV0

prepare for some salt (ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff @ first match)

then it gets worse...

then I got punked by another fox offstream.

edit: oh god I get so talkative when I'm salty. kill me

and xfd on how the video ends.

 

[Duel]

I'm in the same boat as you guys, I have fun with melee, but not worth a huge investment of my time when I should be focusing on grad school.

 

[-ACE-]

Good news, my junkie neighbors are gone. Bad news is the guy put some dents in the hood of my truck when he left. Probably mad that I called him a p***y in front of his girl and the entire neighborhood around 20 times lol. I got connections and can get my truck fixed for free. ****ing loser.

It was literally all over me accidentally locking myself outside my apt at 11:30pm. I had to borrow a butter knife to break in. I didn't even wake him up, and he has had Heroin addicts in his house left and and right knocking on my door by accident and having screaming matches with his girl at 2am ever since I lived here. He just snapped due to sobriety lol. He slowed down after I slammed is own door against his head (this was immediately after he tried to stab me).

Now I can practice tech uninterrupted. Still moving asap.

Hopefully this is the last of these updates lmao. **** this place

Interesting fact: neighborhood is 90% black. I have only had major problems with white people.

 

[gmBottles]

Good news, my junkie neighbors are gone. Bad news is the guy put some dents in the hood of my truck when he left. Probably mad that I called him a p***y in front of his girl and the entire neighborhood around 20 times lol. I got connections and can get my truck fixed for free. ****ing loser.

It was literally all over me accidentally locking myself outside my apt at 11:30pm. I had to borrow a butter knife to break in. I didn't even wake him up, and he has had Heroin addicts in his house left and and right knocking on my door by accident and having screaming matches with his girl at 2am ever since I lived here. He just snapped due to sobriety lol. He slowed down after I slammed is own door against his head (this was immediately after he tried to stab me).

Now I can practice tech uninterrupted. Still moving asap.

Hopefully this is the last of these updates lmao. **** this place

**** dude

 

[tm]

and I thought Toledo was bad...

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Hey guys

Two things. First I got a set recorded at the last tournament I attended.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThSbKjywCDE

It's against a fox player that's ok. I lose 2-1. All three games are on BF. He wins the first game barely, I make a 2 stock comeback game two at 100+ percent, and then he 2 stocks me game three.

I think I lost because I didn't take advantage of edgeguarding opportunities enough. Sure, I did get some good edgeugards, but not enough. I think I know what I have to do here.

I also made some questionable decisions oos and mis timed several tech chases that were the correct reads. Had these things come together, I think I would've won because my neutral game was good enough for me to get the openings I needed. I landed a lot of really good shield drops, including some buffered shield drops. So if any of you want to see some application of those, check out the video.

Anyway, I'd appreciate some feedback other than "you played good" or "you played bad".

-------------------------------------------------

Second, I played Mr. Lemon, one of the best docs in the country for a few hours yesterday and I've come to some conclusions about the Doc matchup if anyone is interested.

First, a lot of the info on the matchup in our matchup thread is wrong. You cannot edgeguard doc as easily as it implies. You really have to throw that reverse uair or bair out way ahead of time in order for it to go through his pills. So basically, you have to read his trajectory, which is hard because he has a lot of mixups.

I found two effective methods. One is you grab the ledge before he up-bs and retain your invincibility and then ledgehop uair as he recovers. This is really hard because a good doc is going to throw a pill right by the ledge to stop you from doing this. This usually prevents you from wd back to the ledge when he's getting close. So you gotta either light shield the pill or waveland over it, or on yoshi's you can drop through the platform to grab the ledge to avoid it. From there getting off the invincible uair should work. The hard part is getting the ledge at the right time.

The other method, which works when he's come from a higher trajectory is to jump out and bait him to cape you. You do a regular uair at him, which will go through his pills on reaction, unlike the reverse uair which requires you to do it ahead of time as the reverse hitbox comes out way later. When he capes you, you get the reverse hitbox to hit him and it'll kill him. It's a good mixup, but can't really be relied on as if he just doesn't cape he can just jump over you or fast fall under to avoid you.

Some other observations:

Doc edgeguards Ganon super hard obviously. And if you go offstage, even in the least seemingly comital way, you can get reverse edgeguarded and killed very easily.

The neutral game is hard because if you cc a lot of docs approaches, he can actually just grab you before you can even get a jab off! It's nuts. I think it's because his hits like jab, nair, and uair stun you more than they you'd think. Also, jabbing pills isn't as effective people think. This is because doc can mixup the angle he throws pills so that your jab hitbox misses them. And ftilt leaves too much lag so you're often forced to shield or spot dodge.

Fortunately, if you get doc cornered, there is not a lot he can do oos to beat you. So it's just a question of keeping the pressure on. It seems wd oos into a jab, grab, or dsmash is one of the better options. And if you read this, you can dair preemptively to get a nasty punish. The one thing he can do oos on you is up-b, which lemon happens to be consistent with canceling. It's pretty crazy ****. But with perfect spacing it can be avoided. However, the slightest imperfect spacing in front of him and you can get hit by it. The one other thing he has in his defensive arsenal that works well is spot dodge. When you're at higher percents, he can spot dodge a fair and dtilt you before you can get a jab off. The dtilt is insane because it sends you at a crazy trajectory behind him and either puts you offstage or in the corner. Hella underrated move imo.

Speaking of punishes, you really have to just retain positional advantage over going for crazy **** vs. doc. He can jump out of a lot of things. For example, I tried to get a further punish off first hit nair at lower percents a bunch of times and he was able to jump out after the nair most of the time. So it's better to just go with uair or bair and put him above you or offstage. On the other hand, he can really punish you hard. But you can negate a lot of this with good DI. I don't like DIing behind him off his throws because bair is a lot more devastating than uair. With uair, you can DI it to escape getting juggled to death. But bair just sends you to your death. The only time I'll DI behind is off usmash because it sends you too high up for him to bair.

So yeah, I think it's a harder matchup than Luigi, Pika, or Samus as far as the mid tier matchups go.

 

[NickNasty]

Good news, my junkie neighbors are gone. Bad news is the guy put some dents in the hood of my truck when he left. Probably mad that I called him a p***y in front of his girl and the entire neighborhood around 20 times lol. I got connections and can get my truck fixed for free. ****ing loser.

It was literally all over me accidentally locking myself outside my apt at 11:30pm. I had to borrow a butter knife to break in. I didn't even wake him up, and he has had Heroin addicts in his house left and and right knocking on my door by accident and having screaming matches with his girl at 2am ever since I lived here. He just snapped due to sobriety lol. He slowed down after I slammed is own door against his head (this was immediately after he tried to stab me).

Now I can practice tech uninterrupted. Still moving asap.

Hopefully this is the last of these updates lmao. **** this place

Interesting fact: neighborhood is 90% black. I have only had major problems with white people.

dude...
I feel for you for sure. I'm pretty much living in the hood of Edmonton and it's a very similar situation. For me it's more so crackheads sleeping in between the doors of our condo building/natives having yelling matches all night. It can be really frustrating for sure. I typically just throw on my headset and grind it out while hearing a little noise in the background. At least they're not knocking on my door... :\ Sorry to hear that man

 

[-ACE-]

Hey guys

Two things. First I got a set recorded at the last tournament I attended.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThSbKjywCDE

It's against a fox player that's ok. I lose 2-1. All three games are on BF. He wins the first game barely, I make a 2 stock comeback game two at 100+ percent, and then he 2 stocks me game three.

I think I lost because I didn't take advantage of edgeguarding opportunities enough. Sure, I did get some good edgeugards, but not enough. I think I know what I have to do here.

I also made some questionable decisions oos and mis timed several tech chases that were the correct reads. Had these things come together, I think I would've won because my neutral game was good enough for me to get the openings I needed. I landed a lot of really good shield drops, including some buffered shield drops. So if any of you want to see some application of those, check out the video.

Anyway, I'd appreciate some feedback other than "you played good" or "you played bad".

-------------------------------------------------

Second, I played Mr. Lemon, one of the best docs in the country for a few hours yesterday and I've come to some conclusions about the Doc matchup if anyone is interested.

First, a lot of the info on the matchup in our matchup thread is wrong. You cannot edgeguard doc as easily as it implies. You really have to throw that reverse uair or bair out way ahead of time in order for it to go through his pills. So basically, you have to read his trajectory, which is hard because he has a lot of mixups.

I found two effective methods. One is you grab the ledge before he up-bs and retain your invincibility and then ledgehop uair as he recovers. This is really hard because a good doc is going to throw a pill right by the ledge to stop you from doing this. This usually prevents you from wd back to the ledge when he's getting close. So you gotta either light shield the pill or waveland over it, or on yoshi's you can drop through the platform to grab the ledge to avoid it. From there getting off the invincible uair should work. The hard part is getting the ledge at the right time.

The other method, which works when he's come from a higher trajectory is to jump out and bait him to cape you. You do a regular uair at him, which will go through his pills on reaction, unlike the reverse uair which requires you to do it ahead of time as the reverse hitbox comes out way later. When he capes you, you get the reverse hitbox to hit him and it'll kill him. It's a good mixup, but can't really be relied on as if he just doesn't cape he can just jump over you or fast fall under to avoid you.

Some other observations:

Doc edgeguards Ganon super hard obviously. And if you go offstage, even in the least seemingly comital way, you can get reverse edgeguarded and killed very easily.

The neutral game is hard because if you cc a lot of docs approaches, he can actually just grab you before you can even get a jab off! It's nuts. I think it's because his hits like jab, nair, and uair stun you more than they you'd think. Also, jabbing pills isn't as effective people think. This is because doc can mixup the angle he throws pills so that your jab hitbox misses them. And ftilt leaves too much lag so you're often forced to shield or spot dodge.

Fortunately, if you get doc cornered, there is not a lot he can do oos to beat you. So it's just a question of keeping the pressure on. It seems wd oos into a jab, grab, or dsmash is one of the better options. And if you read this, you can dair preemptively to get a nasty punish. The one thing he can do oos on you is up-b, which lemon happens to be consistent with canceling. It's pretty crazy ****. But with perfect spacing it can be avoided. However, the slightest imperfect spacing in front of him and you can get hit by it. The one other thing he has in his defensive arsenal that works well is spot dodge. When you're at higher percents, he can spot dodge a fair and dtilt you before you can get a jab off. The dtilt is insane because it sends you at a crazy trajectory behind him and either puts you offstage or in the corner. Hella underrated move imo.

Speaking of punishes, you really have to just retain positional advantage over going for crazy **** vs. doc. He can jump out of a lot of things. For example, I tried to get a further punish off first hit nair at lower percents a bunch of times and he was able to jump out after the nair most of the time. So it's better to just go with uair or bair and put him above you or offstage. On the other hand, he can really punish you hard. But you can negate a lot of this with good DI. I don't like DIing behind him off his throws because bair is a lot more devastating than uair. With uair, you can DI it to escape getting juggled to death. But bair just sends you to your death. The only time I'll DI behind is off usmash because it sends you too high up for him to bair.

So yeah, I think it's a harder matchup than Luigi, Pika, or Samus as far as the mid tier matchups go.

Surprised you didn't mention bair in neutral vs Doc. Eating pills with reverse uair is a necessity (and vs luigi's fireballs). Dthrow uair is the **** (obv bair for DI behind). Edge guarding with inv uair is good, and you can stomp his up-b.

I'll watch the fox match later

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Well I just saw Bizz get 4 stocked by Plup... It was hard enough as it is against his Samus lol. This matchup is truly terrible. And I bet he could consistently do it with the way he plays the matchup.

I firmly believe the matchup is legit 80 / 20 in sheik's favor. The "well, ganon has a chain grab" argument is so bad because so does sheik, so because that's the case, the matchup boils down to who gets the grab... and if the sheik is even vaguely familiar with the matchup, that'll always be sheik. Not to mention, the chain grab will ALWAYS lead to death against ganon from a competent sheik (chain grab into guaranteed edge guard scenario- should be death), but not always against sheik.

Guaranteed punishes, such as ftilt / dtilt --> fair and reaction-based play (wait for ganon to throw out a laggy move, read: ANY move, and then grab) make this matchup legitimately unwinnable at high level. I legitimately think that ganon can win any other matchup, even fox / falcon, on good stages, even at high level, but this matchup is the worst. I'm not bad at it, it's just a bad matchup. I want to legit pick up sheik just for the ditto.

-ACE- sucks, man. I can't even empathize with that. Thank god your truck is a free fix though, that would piss me off to no end. You don't F*CK with another man's automobile, I don't care what kind of problems you got with him. Here's to a quick move out into a better neighborhood.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Surprised you didn't mention bair in neutral vs Doc. Eating pills with reverse uair is a necessity (and vs luigi's fireballs). Dthrow uair is the **** (obv bair for DI behind). Edge guarding with inv uair is good, and you can stomp his up-b.

I'll watch the fox match later

I sort of implied it in my post about shield pressure I guess. Bair ftilt or pivot jab is the best thing to do. Also ftilt to stuff his approach works really well, kinda similar to falcon in a way.

Luigi's fireballs are easy to get around because just go straight. Doc's pills are a lot harder to deal with from my experiences. Although admittedly there are no luigis as good as Lemon here in Boston so idk.

Stomp doesn't really work against a player like lemon because he always techs and he reacted to it every time. I guess it would work against a scrubby doc.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah you have to adjust if he's godly at teching, but it's a good choice in a lot of instances and usually works since mc isn't really an option.

Luigi's fireballs are easy to get around? And blow an edgeguard opportunity lol. Gotta learn to space reverse uair to eat them.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Yeah you have to adjust if he's godly at teching, but it's a good choice in a lot of instances and usually works since mc isn't really an option.

Luigi's fireballs are easy to get around? And blow an edgeguard opportunity lol. Gotta learn to space reverse uair to eat them.

Well I didn't mean it like you would be avoiding them to miss an edgeguard. I meant they're just easy to beat. They don't go through the air as fast as doc's pills so they're easier to react to I guess.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Hey guys

Two things. First I got a set recorded at the last tournament I attended.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThSbKjywCDE

It's against a fox player that's ok. I lose 2-1. All three games are on BF. He wins the first game barely, I make a 2 stock comeback game two at 100+ percent, and then he 2 stocks me game three.

I think I lost because I didn't take advantage of edgeguarding opportunities enough. Sure, I did get some good edgeugards, but not enough. I think I know what I have to do here.

I also made some questionable decisions oos and mis timed several tech chases that were the correct reads. Had these things come together, I think I would've won because my neutral game was good enough for me to get the openings I needed. I landed a lot of really good shield drops, including some buffered shield drops. So if any of you want to see some application of those, check out the video.

Anyway, I'd appreciate some feedback other than "you played good" or "you played bad".

-------------------------------------------------

Second, I played Mr. Lemon, one of the best docs in the country for a few hours yesterday and I've come to some conclusions about the Doc matchup if anyone is interested.

First, a lot of the info on the matchup in our matchup thread is wrong. You cannot edgeguard doc as easily as it implies. You really have to throw that reverse uair or bair out way ahead of time in order for it to go through his pills. So basically, you have to read his trajectory, which is hard because he has a lot of mixups.

I found two effective methods. One is you grab the ledge before he up-bs and retain your invincibility and then ledgehop uair as he recovers. This is really hard because a good doc is going to throw a pill right by the ledge to stop you from doing this. This usually prevents you from wd back to the ledge when he's getting close. So you gotta either light shield the pill or waveland over it, or on yoshi's you can drop through the platform to grab the ledge to avoid it. From there getting off the invincible uair should work. The hard part is getting the ledge at the right time.

The other method, which works when he's come from a higher trajectory is to jump out and bait him to cape you. You do a regular uair at him, which will go through his pills on reaction, unlike the reverse uair which requires you to do it ahead of time as the reverse hitbox comes out way later. When he capes you, you get the reverse hitbox to hit him and it'll kill him. It's a good mixup, but can't really be relied on as if he just doesn't cape he can just jump over you or fast fall under to avoid you.

Some other observations:

Doc edgeguards Ganon super hard obviously. And if you go offstage, even in the least seemingly comital way, you can get reverse edgeguarded and killed very easily.

The neutral game is hard because if you cc a lot of docs approaches, he can actually just grab you before you can even get a jab off! It's nuts. I think it's because his hits like jab, nair, and uair stun you more than they you'd think. Also, jabbing pills isn't as effective people think. This is because doc can mixup the angle he throws pills so that your jab hitbox misses them. And ftilt leaves too much lag so you're often forced to shield or spot dodge.

Fortunately, if you get doc cornered, there is not a lot he can do oos to beat you. So it's just a question of keeping the pressure on. It seems wd oos into a jab, grab, or dsmash is one of the better options. And if you read this, you can dair preemptively to get a nasty punish. The one thing he can do oos on you is up-b, which lemon happens to be consistent with canceling. It's pretty crazy ****. But with perfect spacing it can be avoided. However, the slightest imperfect spacing in front of him and you can get hit by it. The one other thing he has in his defensive arsenal that works well is spot dodge. When you're at higher percents, he can spot dodge a fair and dtilt you before you can get a jab off. The dtilt is insane because it sends you at a crazy trajectory behind him and either puts you offstage or in the corner. Hella underrated move imo.

Speaking of punishes, you really have to just retain positional advantage over going for crazy **** vs. doc. He can jump out of a lot of things. For example, I tried to get a further punish off first hit nair at lower percents a bunch of times and he was able to jump out after the nair most of the time. So it's better to just go with uair or bair and put him above you or offstage. On the other hand, he can really punish you hard. But you can negate a lot of this with good DI. I don't like DIing behind him off his throws because bair is a lot more devastating than uair. With uair, you can DI it to escape getting juggled to death. But bair just sends you to your death. The only time I'll DI behind is off usmash because it sends you too high up for him to bair.

So yeah, I think it's a harder matchup than Luigi, Pika, or Samus as far as the mid tier matchups go.

So, first, I'm gonna talk about doc, then I'll do a small analysis on your vid. Ganon edge guards doc hard, man. Play the matchup a little more and you'll understand what works and what doesn't in regards to pills etc. I think ganon actually has the edge guarding advantage, but doc's is obviously easier (CAPE). Luigi definitely has harder edge guards on ganon. Anyway, marth killer to edge, like you said, is pretty guaranteed and you'll never trade with his up-b if you're invincible. There are times you can go out there to cover more options and force another recovery which is easier to guard. It's all about reactions here.

His down-b stall is legitimately the stupidest thing he can do while recovering. That move is so laggy, you can and should just go out there to punish it.

In regards to YOUR recovery, there are a few little tricks. The main thing to keep in mind is that you typically do not want to recover high (unless your opponent is basically ONLY relying on cape- then recover high and early and you'll land on stage. But a good doc will just bair). When you recover sweetspot-level low AND close to the stage, your opponents choices are actually more limited. The only 3 moves he can effectively hit you with are cape, drop down bair, and dsmash. So, it's a little bit of rock-paper-scissors here.

If it's a cape-heavy doc, reverse up-b. Easy. You made it. If he tries to drop down and bair, reverse up-b should still be your option of choice because it covers more options, but look out for it and be ready to tech. It's a pretty easy tech to hit, though, and I don't think SDI is required. Don't try and up-b to the edge after you tech it, though because his up-b will beat you there.

If he dsmashes, you can still reverse up-b and tech it, but it's obviously harder because your SDI game needs to be on point. Like I said, a little bit of rock-paper-scissors here and you have to guess what he's going to choose to edge guard you with. Pay attention to whatever it is because he'll likely rinse and repeat. You should definitely make it back to stage more than, say, vs marth / sheik / fox.

You're right about the netural vs doc, though. I think that it's a harder matchup than luigi and samus, but definitely not pika. Like most mid-tier characters, his neutral is a bit of a gimmick and, while he has his options, all of them are beatable and in a safe way, and if you can't beat them out, rolling away until he screws up is a viable option. I wouldn't necessarily CC his aerial approaches, but most docs rely on their grab game vs ganon (doc has massive punishes off grab vs ganon).

READ THIS BECAUSE IT'S A GAME CHANGER IN THE MU: So, I said that doc has huge follow ups off grab. One of the biggest grab setups (at least in my experience) is jab --> grab. His aerial into grab should not work. But you should be able to adapt to his jab patterns and CC his jab into grab. The hitstun off a jab when you are CCing is almost nothing and you can immediately JC grab. Game changer imo. Once you get your grabs, doc is so light that dthrow into bair should put him off stage at relatively low %, just like marth. Also, at higher %, you can dthrow --> fair and depending on DI, you can dthrow into upsmash.

Fox critique incoming.

 

[tm]

PseudoTurtle just FYI, if you recover low against doc he can cape the forward upB and wavedash to ledge the reverse upB on reaction for a guaranteed kill every time.
Also I wouldn't exactly call him light

 

[-ACE-]

Well I didn't mean it like you would be avoiding them to miss an edgeguard. I meant they're just easy to beat. They don't go through the air as fast as doc's pills so they're easier to react to I guess.

Play Blea Gelo LMFAO

 

[X WaNtEd X]

From watching spider sense vs. blea, it looks like they just edgeguard the **** outta each other. The hard part of the matchup looks like the neutral imo.

 

[-ACE-]

The neutral is obviously the hardest lol.

It's all theory till you play the #1 Luigi on earth vs Ganon.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

PseudoTurtle

I'll do a bigger reply later, but reverse up-b only works if the doc tries to cape you. When I go low, lemon will just go down and bair me. But yeah, I've tricked many bad doc players with that before.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

PseudoTurtle just FYI, if you recover low against doc he can cape the forward upB and wavedash to ledge the reverse upB on reaction for a guaranteed kill every time.
Also I wouldn't exactly call him light

Is that true? Even with sweetspot? I've never had it happen to me or seen it done, not that I don't believe you. If it is, then that changes things. Yea, maybe he isn't "light," as he's heavier than half the cast, but he's still lighter than falcon, a.k.a. at a weight where bair will knock him offstage at mid %.

Grim:

Mistake #1 at 0:58. You were given two gifts here. You baired him before he landed, so you took his jump. You then decided to jump waaaaay up high and waveland on the platform. Most foxes will try and side-b after this, so be ready for it. Don't commit to jumping etc because if he made the correct decision and side-b'd, he would have made it. The second gift he gave you was recovering below stage... lol. Because this is battlefield, you can do what I said (wait for side-b) and still react to cover a low recovery.

But, since, you're already on the edge, this should have been easy. Ledge hop up air would have been invincible and covered his recovery here. Maybe he could avoid it and drift back to ledge? Even then, cover with downward angled ftilt.

At 1:02, nice grab. You upthrow, he misses tech, you don't punish. That's fine, sometimes it's hard to react like that, happens to me all the time. However, he does regular get up and you try to up air. I struggled with stuff like this for SO long (and still do), but you NEED to know your character and when something will be "too late." Kinda hard to explain, but you need to cut your losses from the missed opportunity and realize that it's simply too late to hit with an up air here. Think about his options. Realize that he will most likely shield here and you can try to punish that. I like to up-b, even though that's probably considered an unsafe option. You can waveland grab (or NIL grab), or just pressure him into doing something you CAN punish.

1:05, misspaced fair. I know you were trying to cover his platform movement, but look at where it came out- you wouldn't cover much with that. Full hop fair would have been a lot better, or even double jump fair. Like here: I wanted to cover him coming at me from a platform, and then fade back so if I whiffed, he couldn't hit me.

Dash attack on shield after that. He air dodged, so I understand you wanted to punish. But just grab IMO. Grab is a better punish AND it will cover the exact same options as dash attack in this scenario.

Careful jumping out of an upthrow. He tried to uptilt, so jump was the right decision, but don't do it every time. Good stuff though. The only problem I have here is where you went after the jump. The only reason to jump out of a fox up throw is because of uptilt / up smash, no? So just stomp that ****! It seems like low-level mindgames, but in reality, what else are they going to do if not up air you (in which case double jumping out would do nothing anyway)? I suppose they could dash away / shield and get another grab, but then you're in the same exact position so whatever. You jumped away and he reacted with a bair.

Nice reverse up air to cover the side-b. I probably would have fair'd, but he would've expected it. Your up air was a nice DI mixup which got the stock. Good stuff.

1:22 dsmash on shield. You spot dodged, which I'm sure was in input error for buffered dthrow. I do this all the time lol. Only thing I have to say is that sometimes dsmash is out of grab range, so don't automatically go for shield grab here. Wavedash OOS into grab should connect, so get used to doing that instead, for when the dsmash is spaced far away.

1:27 don't side-b here. I do it all the time and it's dumb lol. But next time, fade back and fair off stage. It would have hit. You can double jump afterwards and make it back to ledge. Overall, it's a pretty safe option.

1:36 another gift! He ****ed up hard lol and you did everything right until the ledge hop. Protip: when fox is in the magnifying glass on any stage besides yoshis, 99% of the time, an edge hog will work. Just roll.

1:42 ish ok, so you hit with jab into dash attack, now you're center stage and fox is near the edge. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot of guaranteed stuff you can keep hitting him with. This matchup sucks. You tried to stomp and he was already on top of you. As soon as you threw out the stomp, it was already too late. While you can't do anything to guarantee a follow up, you do have the favorable stage position. When he's near the edge, he wants to come back to center stage. React. Don't jump and try to stomp, see what he does and respond accordingly. If he tries to dash back to center, ftilt him. If he gets on the platform (which he did), up air / fair him when he gets back to center. Bizzarro flame likes to do a short hop (and wait) and then depending what fox does, either double jump fair to cover platform or land and react if he doesn't.

It's super important to always have a plan B ready and play based on reaction. If you watch kage / linguini, they are reaction MASTERS. They never commit to something unless it covers as many options as possible. Watch those kage gfycats and you'll see what I mean. Kage isn't known as a "fast" ganondorf because he's always looking to wait and see. Reacting with ganondorf is different than reacting with other characters, but just as necessary. More and more I'm learning that, and more and more my game is improving.

Ok, so 1:58, that was a good wait, but a little too much. This brings me back to saying you really have to know your character and what ganon just won't be fast enough to cover. Shielding was one of those things. I personally would have just up air'd before you DJ faired, but you have to be patient.

Nice job keeping center and walling with up airs after the fact though. That was actually perfect play IMO. You waited for him to do something stupid, put himself in a bad spot, and waveland in and jab.

2:08 after he whiffs the fsmash, just ledge hop and grab him. Even if you don't time it perfectly, almost everyone will shield lol. Ledge hop grab is something I've only recently started incorporating into my game, but it's SO good.

2:10 you did a dumb, pseudoturtle-esque down-b. It's dumb. Don't do it. I assume you wanted to cover a roll away here, but waveland in and grab would do the same. Or ledge hop, dash fair. But mostly, you should have just known that because he did the fsmash and then shielded your jab before, that he was going to shield AGAIN. It was the same dumb fsmash and the same dumb shield. Grab it!

2:16 SICK wavedash OOS --> jab. This is exactly the reason why I have been trying to promote wavedash oos for so long. He was looking for a roll, I'm sure. Most ganons roll out of the corner. Little does he know, you just punched him in the face.

Nice edge guard at 2:36. Fox loves that up-b to ledge bs.

2:40 now this is a tricky position. You're on the ledge and fox is standing juuuust at your waveland in range, not committing to anything. It's scary because fox can react to whatever you do. You ledge hop, he just stands there- you can't hit him. You waveland jab, he wavedashes back and hits you. Even though ganon has options at the ledge, this is a really good position for fox to be in and he's playing it correctly. I would personally RLD here to see what he does.

2:41 ok, this is why I would have RLD'd. As soon as you did something (ledge hop), fox threw out a bair. Now you have him moving and committing! If you had RLD'd, you'd be back to the ledge and ready to come in and punish with whatever, but unfortunately, you have your back to the stage and you can basically only bair or waveland in and hope he gets his shield up to grab. If you do that run off, you lose a lot of options by sacrificing your option to grab the ledge again.

Bair was shielded, stomp missed and you get comboed.

A little bit of sloppiness follows, no big deal, it happens. Poor choice to eikeldrop though because he had his jump and you should assume he's going to use it.

Nice control of center stage afterwards though, that's the kind of patience I was talking about earlier. Wait for something to react to and body him.

CC grab at 3:12. Nice.

3:14 you knocked him down with dtilt. Very nice. Why did you jump though? Was it a missed input? Sometimes this happens to me as well, but if you want to know what to do in this situation, look at those kage gfycats lol. I'm still working on good pressure tactics in this spot, but kage knows what's up.

3:19 IMO you should be bairing more quickly when they're at the ledge. There's some improvement to your speed that could be made here I think. Not like it would have mattered in this situation, but it's generally safer and more effective at stuffing ledge options.

Good edge guards after.

3:30 he read you and baited that waveland in from ledge into roll. That's why I like the empty RLD so much. I made a video a long time ago about RLD possibilities and said it had low use....... kicking myself for that now because I do it SO often to see what my opponent will do, how they will try and punish me, and how I can use it against them to A) recover safely and / or B) punish them back.

3:47 you kind of just... ran away after you had him in the corner. I'm not sure why you'd do that after keeping center stage so well. Pressure him with tilts and dash in and out to see what he's gonna do.

I think you have a lot of potential and I saw little errors that got punished. You definitely have him next time. Keep some of this in mind next time you play.

Two biggest things I would stress are to keep your options open- don't commit to anything until you've narrowed down his options and always keep a plan B in mind, where you can react to what he does if plan A isn't viable and punish accordingly.

MONOLOGUE OUT

 

[PseudoTurtle]

PseudoTurtle

I'll do a bigger reply later, but reverse up-b only works if the doc tries to cape you. When I go low, lemon will just go down and bair me. But yeah, I've tricked many bad doc players with that before.

Yea, but the bair is techable even with reverse up-b. I don't really have experience in the doc matchup all that much, but luigi basically does the same thing with his bair and I KNOW you can tech that even in reverse.

 

[-ACE-]

Not many great doc's in NC or Florida (although as Ganon, playing green Mario is good enough practice imo), I got my best experience from seriouslies with boss8 when I lived in VA.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

First off, thank you for giving me this reply. This is literally the first time anyone has actually given me an even remotely detailed critique before. Means a lot.

Mistake #1 at 0:58. You were given two gifts here. You baired him before he landed, so you took his jump. You then decided to jump waaaaay up high and waveland on the platform. Most foxes will try and side-b after this, so be ready for it. Don't commit to jumping etc because if he made the correct decision and side-b'd, he would have made it. The second gift he gave you was recovering below stage... lol. Because this is battlefield, you can do what I said (wait for side-b) and still react to cover a low recovery.

The reason I went up like that was because I planned to shield drop or drop though a bair if he side-b'd and if he decided to fire fox I was going to go offstage into a reverse uair. This would not have covered a shortened side-b, though. So I guess I should've also accounted for that. I saw that he went at a low angle, so I grabbed the ledge and was trying to ledge hop a uair. I accidentally got up instead. I believe the invincible ledge hop uair would've killed. It was an input error on my part.

At 1:02, nice grab. You upthrow, he misses tech, you don't punish. That's fine, sometimes it's hard to react like that, happens to me all the time. However, he does regular get up and you try to up air. I struggled with stuff like this for SO long (and still do), but you NEED to know your character and when something will be "too late." Kinda hard to explain, but you need to cut your losses from the missed opportunity and realize that it's simply too late to hit with an up air here. Think about his options. Realize that he will most likely shield here and you can try to punish that. I like to up-b, even though that's probably considered an unsafe option. You can waveland grab (or NIL grab), or just pressure him into doing something you CAN punish.

Yeah I always try to react to neutral getup with uair. I guess if I miss the opportunity to punish missed tech that I should wait to see if he rolls or does getup attack. If he does that I should uair/bair or dair/fair if I have a read. And if he just gets up I should try to trick him with the NIL grab or up-b. I especially like your NIL idea because I'm very good at doing it. I think up-b wouldn't be very good at low percents, but at higher percents it would be godly as it would send fox offstage.

1:05, misspaced fair. I know you were trying to cover his platform movement, but look at where it came out- you wouldn't cover much with that. Full hop fair would have been a lot better, or even double jump fair. Like here: I wanted to cover him coming at me from a platform, and then fade back so if I whiffed, he couldn't hit me.

I like that. That fair was me going on auto pilot and putting on mindless pressure.

Dash attack on shield after that. He air dodged, so I understand you wanted to punish. But just grab IMO. Grab is a better punish AND it will cover the exact same options as dash attack in this scenario.

Yeah I struggle with going for grabs. I often think I can't get them an underestimate Ganon a little too much.

Careful jumping out of an upthrow. He tried to uptilt, so jump was the right decision, but don't do it every time. Good stuff though. The only problem I have here is where you went after the jump. The only reason to jump out of a fox up throw is because of uptilt / up smash, no? So just stomp that ****! It seems like low-level mindgames, but in reality, what else are they going to do if not up air you (in which case double jumping out would do nothing anyway)? I suppose they could dash away / shield and get another grab, but then you're in the same exact position so whatever. You jumped away and he reacted with a bair.

My thinking was to get to a platform and shield drop out of it. But I guess I should be going for things like that until my opponent shows me they can/will punish it.

1:22 dsmash on shield. You spot dodged, which I'm sure was in input error for buffered dthrow. I do this all the time lol. Only thing I have to say is that sometimes dsmash is out of grab range, so don't automatically go for shield grab here. Wavedash OOS into grab should connect, so get used to doing that instead, for when the dsmash is spaced far away.

Think shield DI would get me close enough for regular shield grab to work?

1:27 don't side-b here. I do it all the time and it's dumb lol. But next time, fade back and fair off stage. It would have hit. You can double jump afterwards and make it back to ledge. Overall, it's a pretty safe option.

Yeah I actually do that sometimes, but wasn't thinking in that moment and just blindly side-b'd.

1:36 another gift! He ****ed up hard lol and you did everything right until the ledge hop. Protip: when fox is in the magnifying glass on any stage besides yoshis, 99% of the time, an edge hog will work. Just roll.

I ****ed that up so hard. I thought that he had already fallen past me when I did that.

1:42 ish ok, so you hit with jab into dash attack, now you're center stage and fox is near the edge. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot of guaranteed stuff you can keep hitting him with. This matchup sucks. You tried to stomp and he was already on top of you. As soon as you threw out the stomp, it was already too late. While you can't do anything to guarantee a follow up, you do have the favorable stage position. When he's near the edge, he wants to come back to center stage. React. Don't jump and try to stomp, see what he does and respond accordingly. If he tries to dash back to center, ftilt him. If he gets on the platform (which he did), up air / fair him when he gets back to center. Bizzarro flame likes to do a short hop (and wait) and then depending what fox does, either double jump fair to cover platform or land and react if he doesn't.

Nice...nice. This is something I have not thought about enough clearly.

Ok, so 1:58, that was a good wait, but a little too much. This brings me back to saying you really have to know your character and what ganon just won't be fast enough to cover. Shielding was one of those things. I personally would have just up air'd before you DJ faired, but you have to be patient.

That was an input error. I tried to do a uair there, but my finger missed the c-stick and so I tried to cover it up with fair. If you had to clean up a mistake like that, what would you have done instead of fair?

2:08 after he whiffs the fsmash, just ledge hop and grab him. Even if you don't time it perfectly, almost everyone will shield lol. Ledge hop grab is something I've only recently started incorporating into my game, but it's SO good.

Yo this just gave me a great idea. Ledgehop grab and condition him to try to challenge my ledgehop. Then start doing invincible jabs and uairs.

2:40 now this is a tricky position. You're on the ledge and fox is standing juuuust at your waveland in range, not committing to anything. It's scary because fox can react to whatever you do. You ledge hop, he just stands there- you can't hit him. You waveland jab, he wavedashes back and hits you. Even though ganon has options at the ledge, this is a really good position for fox to be in and he's playing it correctly. I would personally RLD here to see what he does.

2:41 ok, this is why I would have RLD'd. As soon as you did something (ledge hop), fox threw out a bair. Now you have him moving and committing! If you had RLD'd, you'd be back to the ledge and ready to come in and punish with whatever, but unfortunately, you have your back to the stage and you can basically only bair or waveland in and hope he gets his shield up to grab. If you do that run off, you lose a lot of options by sacrificing your option to grab the ledge again.

I like that idea; using RLDs to test what your opponent will do to get you when you're coming from the ledge. I'm going to start doing that.

Bair was shielded, stomp missed and you get comboed.

Had I just jabbed or ftilted instead of dair I would've caught his jump. I really have to stop being so greedy with dair. It's a bad habit developed from playing too many ****ty spacie players.

A little bit of sloppiness follows, no big deal, it happens. Poor choice to eikeldrop though because he had his jump and you should assume he's going to use it.

It was actually a late reaction on my part. I saw him go right into my eikeldrop range, but my fingers moved to ledge hop automatically. Then I tried to cover up the mistake quickly and messed up. Had I just straight up eikeldropped immediately instead of the invincibility refresh I would've caught him.

3:14 you knocked him down with dtilt. Very nice. Why did you jump though? Was it a missed input? Sometimes this happens to me as well, but if you want to know what to do in this situation, look at those kage gfycats lol. I'm still working on good pressure tactics in this spot, but kage knows what's up.

No the jump was purposeful. Did you see how I buffered a shield drop uair out of that jump? My intention was to use that to pressure his shield when he did a getup. But I see in kage's fourth gfycat that he faired in the opposite direction to cover roll towards center stage and then just react to what fox did with a dair.

So what have you been thinking of to pressure in this situation? My thoughts are to pivot dsmash or to pivot ftilt. If he rolled towards you to avoid the pivot fsmash, I think you might have enough time to turn around and grab or something. But I'm not sure. Also I'm thinking if I had NIL buffer shield dropped the uair I could've been slightly faster, perhaps fast enough to catch him before he shielded.

3:30 he read you and baited that waveland in from ledge into roll. That's why I like the empty RLD so much. I made a video a long time ago about RLD possibilities and said it had low use....... kicking myself for that now because I do it SO often to see what my opponent will do, how they will try and punish me, and how I can use it against them to A) recover safely and / or B) punish them back.

3:47 you kind of just... ran away after you had him in the corner. I'm not sure why you'd do that after keeping center stage so well. Pressure him with tilts and dash in and out to see what he's gonna do.

I guess I was afraid of his drop through bair potential. Should've been more aware of the situation.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I think ganon actually has the edge guarding advantage, but doc's is obviously easier (CAPE).

lol you're crazy. There is no way Ganon has the edgeguarding advantage. Although bair is techable, what lemon does is grab the ledge and dropzone bair before I even have a chance to tech it. And if I go high, he just gets back on stage and then either bairs or capes me. The edgeguarding is so free for Doc. I'm starting to see how it's free for Ganon too, but definitely not nearly as free.

but definitely not pika.

Really? I realize Axe is on another level, but I find that I can beat pika in neutral very often. The best pika in my region has yet to beat me. And he's not bad. He's taken games off the moon before.

READ THIS BECAUSE IT'S A GAME CHANGER IN THE MU: So, I said that doc has huge follow ups off grab. One of the biggest grab setups (at least in my experience) is jab --> grab. His aerial into grab should not work. But you should be able to adapt to his jab patterns and CC his jab into grab. The hitstun off a jab when you are CCing is almost nothing and you can immediately JC grab. Game changer imo.

Does this actually work? I tried to cc his jab and jab him myself a bunch of times and he grabbed me before I could jab. Maybe I was not timing it right...idk. If that didn't work, I'm not sure grab would. But maybe I was just messing up the cc jab timing.

 

[-ACE-]

Somehow I doubt I've never given you a remotely detailed review X WaNtEd X lol

Joe put in crazy work though, most thorough review I've seen in a while.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

At 3:14, first of all, you can act more quickly out of that dtilt, I think there's some IASA frames. Anyway, ideally you want to tech chase, but if you miss the opportunity, going on a platform isn't your best option because you can't really safely cover options because, as you saw, the way he timed his getup made it so that his shield came up. For some reason, he dropped shield and the up air still hit lol, but if it were me, I would have dash danced to see what he would do. Going on a platform in that situation isn't really ever your best option.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

lol you're crazy. There is no way Ganon has the edgeguarding advantage. Although bair is techable, what lemon does is grab the ledge and dropzone bair before I even have a chance to tech it. And if I go high, he just gets back on stage and then either bairs or capes me. The edgeguarding is so free for Doc. I'm starting to see how it's free for Ganon too, but definitely not nearly as free.



Really? I realize Axe is on another level, but I find that I can beat pika in neutral very often. The best pika in my region has yet to beat me. And he's not bad. He's taken games off the moon before.



Does this actually work? I tried to cc his jab and jab him myself a bunch of times and he grabbed me before I could jab. Maybe I was not timing it right...idk. If that didn't work, I'm not sure grab would. But maybe I was just messing up the cc jab timing.

What do you mean before you have a chance to tech it? Either he drops and hits you in a position where you can up-b early to avoid it or he waits for you to go low in which case you can tech it. It's like the eikeldrop, you can definitely up-b early to avoid it if he's doing it at untechable range. You gotta bait it out.

And you can definitely put in work when he doesn't have a jump. It should be free every time. Just like when you don't have a jump, he should get you.

Yea, pika is tougher. Tiny target, super tough to grab, incredibly easy edge guards (way more guaranteed than doc), beats the hell out of ganon in neutral. Combo game is good. Only thing that would be tough is moves to get you off stage, but nair at mid-high % will do that.

CC --> grab definitely works. You're probably too slow; like I said, the hitstun when you CC a jab is almost nothing, so do your jc grab immediately and you'll get it. Even if that's not guaranteed (99% sure it is), jab is DEFINITELY guaranteed.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

-ACE-

No one ever replied to my video of my set with Kyupuff, the best ICs in New England where I got off a bunch. No one replied to my set I posted against a falcon from VT. When I won that tournament a year ago and posted vids, people congratulated me but no one actually gave me any real critique other than "you missed some l cancels and had some spacing errors." No one said anything about the doubles gameplay I posted. It is true that you replied to my post about playing Kage, but all you told me was I played decently. So yes, I believe this was actually the first time I've been given any remotely in-depth critique here on the boards, unless I'm missing something.

e: My tone comes off as whiny here. I don't mean it like that. No one has any obligation to reply to any post on a forum.

What do you mean before you have a chance to tech it? Either he drops and hits you in a position where you can up-b early to avoid it or he waits for you to go low in which case you can tech it. It's like the eikeldrop, you can definitely up-b early to avoid it if he's doing it at untechable range. You gotta bait it out.

He'd wait for me to go low, but I wouldn't be close enough to the stage to tech it. It happened a bunch of times. Docs ledgedrop bair has a lot of range.

Yea, pika is tougher. Tiny target, super tough to grab, incredibly easy edge guards (way more guaranteed than doc), beats the hell out of ganon in neutral. Combo game is good. Only thing that would be tough is moves to get you off stage, but nair at mid-high % will do that.

CC seems to do wonders against pikachu from my experience. It's true that getting a grab is hard, but cc grab works sometimes and if you get it, you can chaingrab. In neutral, I try not to use jab too much, and rather opt for ftilt as an anti air and dtilt when he's on the ground. Pops him up for a uair.

He's a tiny target, but you have big hitboxes to work with. Bair placed right will hit him on the ground. I'd say fair too, but it's too risky to throw out in neutral very often.

Also edgeguarding pika is easier than people think. He's going to go for the ledge almost every time. So if you aim a uair or bair there, you're most likely going to be close. And if he goes for the stage, he has so much landing lag to punish.

CC --> grab definitely works. You're probably too slow; like I said, the hitstun when you CC a jab is almost nothing, so do your jc grab immediately and you'll get it. Even if that's not guaranteed (99% sure it is), jab is DEFINITELY guaranteed.

I'll take your word for it.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

He'd wait for me to go low, but I wouldn't be close enough to the stage to tech it. It happened a bunch of times. Docs ledgedrop bair has a lot of range.

I can promise you that it isn't a sure thing. The eikeldrop has more range and I know that's avoidable the way I said. Trust me on this one- try it out and experiment with baiting it out. It's not a sure thing.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

-ACE- how do you usually do against Vgmasta?

 

[-ACE-]

Beat him in friendlies, haven't played him much.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I think I would've won because my neutral game was good enough for me to get the openings I needed.

Well it obviously wasn't from what I saw. You shielded way way too much in neutral. You are too scared of Fox running over you and your fear of that very thing lead to it actually happening. You're hardly moving in neutral cause you're in shield so much. You need to be wavedashing and moving around more while also building a wall to trap in the Fox while also not getting too close to him for him to just nair you.

Your edgeguards also need some work. Both your decision making in neutral and in edgeguarding weren't very good half of the time and you suffered a lot because of it. You went for eikeldrops when you didn't really need to go for eikeldrops in that situation. You're not really trying to bait the Fox in neutral and you're wavelanding off platforms into an aerial in hopes that it will hit the Fox off stage. You got like nothing off of grabs.

You did have some nice edgeguards though, practice doing more of the tipman edgeguard cause you did some solid ones in that set. Oh, you also fair too much in neutral. Retreating instant upair is really good in neutral and I would rather see you spam that more than just fair a bunch.

---

One thing that I really want to try soon is to play against my friends and force myself to only use one of Ganon's moves and grab. This way I can see how I can apply every use of upair in a game and try to expand my knowledge of the move by making it the only one I can use. Of course you don't spam it, and you have grab so that your opponent can't just shield when they catch on. You could probably do this for bair as well, and maybe even jab or ftilt for giggles. You could limit yourself to trying just one move all of the time or just one move in neutral and anything for edgeguarding. It's something I certainly want to try.

 

[-ACE-]

I GOT THE PSEUDO DASH LMFAO.

On the left side. I actually did the BACKWARDS dj animation but still made it. Meanwhile Jason is doing it repeatedly while I post this. Finally LOL

 

[NickNasty]

guys, melee is so god damn good.
like every time I play I feel so much happier

 

[PseudoTurtle]

You'll get there Dave lol and I knew Spidey would be able to get it. I'm gonna pseudo dash 5 times in a row against him at big house in recognition of his accomplishment.

Yo my marth is looking pretty crispy, boys. Still need to polish up my juggles and edge guards, but the ganon / marth combo should make its debut shortly after big house. Beware PseudoTurtle on FD / stadium. F*CK YO SPACIES.

 

[-ACE-]

I've been training up Marth for the same thing. But still train 75% Ganon

 

[X WaNtEd X]

RedmanSSBM

Just using one move in neutral + grab? I don't know about that. If I was just picking up Ganon and learning his ins-and-outs and playing against new players I'd be more inclined to do that. But I don't think that will benefit me too much.

I kind of do a skeleton of what you're suggesting. I'll continuously use certain tactics, way more than I should, in the spirit of learning how to apply them properly in friendlies. Or perhaps I'll spam an ambitious edgeguard or something that I normally can't do in the hopes of learning how to do it.

I appreciate your feedback, though. I definitely need to work on my punish game and baits. Can you point me to some specific examples of things I could've done instead of what I did?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I can promise you that it isn't a sure thing. The eikeldrop has more range and I know that's avoidable the way I said. Trust me on this one- try it out and experiment with baiting it out. It's not a sure thing.

Ok I think I understand what you're saying.

Unfortunately, Doc can ledgedrop bair Ganon on reaction in positions where Ganon can't tech. He doesn't have to guess when I'm going to up-b to make it work. And in situations where he would have had to do that to get it off, he can do something else like wait and then ledgehop bair. Therefore, I can't really bait it out of him as he's not going to do it unless it's guaranteed. But you've piqued my curiosity and I'm going to ask the Doc boards what they think of this.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Ok I think I understand what you're saying.

Unfortunately, Doc can ledgedrop bair Ganon on reaction in positions where Ganon can't tech. He doesn't have to guess when I'm going to up-b to make it work. And in situations where he would have had to do that to get it off, he can do something else like wait and then ledgehop bair. Therefore, I can't really bait it out of him as he's not going to do it unless it's guaranteed. But you've piqued my curiosity and I'm going to ask the Doc boards what they think of this.

I mean, yea, same with the eikeldrop. But treat it like that- it has basically the same weaknesses. You can bait it and avoid it by going high, you can get around it via tech by recovering close to the stage. I seriously believe ganon has more recovery options than doc does in the matchup. Neither should make it to stage though lol

 

[-ACE-]

Brandandorf vs Arcadia (marth)
http://youtu.be/GJTtZrxPAHA

Brandandorf vs Plup
http://youtu.be/qXwmOXfJeUg

Bizz vs Plup
http://youtu.be/s8NdRTpmfCE

Bizz vs Calvin (falco)
http://youtu.be/yMP4YkxgeaU

Bizz vs Chillin
http://youtu.be/V_z9jA1Rx54

Bizz vs Balloon (CF)
http://youtu.be/SuMZhethIoM