Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[SwiftNinjaBlackMan]

 

[Divinokage]

The day Kage or some Ganondorf beats KirbyKaze will be a day of great glory.

Tsk, i beat his ass so many times while he was getting better.. lol I still cant believe how much my level increased in just 1 year back then.

 

[tm]

also btw i have this gfycat for you guys from my grand finals set this past weekend. you guys are really going to enjoy the matches i played i think.

http://gfycat.com/TerribleEllipticalBangeltiger

omg that shine. good ****

Tsk, i beat his *** so many times while he was getting better.. lol I still cant believe how much my level increased in just 1 year back then.

well, how did you do it?

 

[tm]

looks about right. 3000x more patient than I am though...

 

[Divinokage]

omg that shine. good ****

well, how did you do it?

Well every time I got punished, I made sure to make conscious effort every single time to not do the same thing again in order to mix up my approaches or to evade a thrown move. Back then we were playing a lot and my goal wasn't winning a friendly it's to learn how to correct my mistakes. So I broke the game down into the most simple level possible. Im sure a few of the guys here remember that I was against wavedashing because I did not need it to win a match and I did prove it by beating some strong players. All I did was learning how to avoid moves and then punish them right back instantly or counter-attack the moves before they even come out.

The players I played against were always stronger than me so my mind was racing constantly in order to keep up, it was also always my goal to defeat everyone I faced without any doubt in my mind so im sure that helped to speed up the process. All my thoughts were to learn to beat options, it wasn't to win because if I wanted to win then I would need to fall back into what i know and obviously that wasnt enough. I believe thats something very important to have because these days when i fight someone I always have the feeling they want to win which is ridiculous when you are trying to have some fun. Its like players want to leap across a huge abyss when they dont even know how to fly.

On the plus side, the players I was playing with made sure to point out when i was doing the same thing too much such as rolling from the ledge. They're like "Roll from the ledge, noob!" and then I did and i got comboed which forced me to switch it up eventually. I can tell you it wasnt an instant change but I forced my mind to change how I got up from the ledge so eventually i started ledge jumping and then i started wavedashing all depending where they are and what they want to do. If something doesnt work often then you change simple as that.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

LOLLLL I am the worst player in the world. Last stock, last game I eikeldropped sizzle (the marth I played a few months back)...

I spiked him, missed my jump input and died. Lmfao that was the worst way I've lost a set so far.

 

[Bwmat]

Falco matches made it to YouTube

http://youtu.be/JHv_X7_092E

http://youtu.be/XfKnhStanQI
(the author)

Nice games! I've never seen you play before, your style is so different than most ganons (all those baiting dairs, I love it)

 

[Bwmat]

I've killed myself in tourney from eikeldropping so much. the timing is hard for me for some reason.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

I didn't really practice this on my own (no way to do it), but I've been playing for over 3 years now, so I'm not exactly new to being waveshined.

Idk how to practice this, really, but get used to the waveshine timing, it's not really that difficult. Maybe get a buddy who can waveshine and have him waveshine you.

There are ways to practice SDI, too, if that's what you're asking.

Yea, I am asking that also Fam

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yikes. Just watched the vods from today. I can honestly say I only played one good match. Trying not to john too hard here, but I looked like a mega scrub. Whatever lol, Chicago won the cup last night; worth the hangover any day of the week year.

Alright, @ YvngFlameHoe here you go. Taken from Black Chris from long ago... Place a motion sensor bomb near the ledge. Build up some percent beforehand (play terrorist and blow yourself up a couple times or whatever), then try and recover. Hold in, press R / L, and when you get blown up, swivel the control stick a quarter circle in the upward direction. If done successfully, you will have teched the bomb and all will be well.

Because that also focuses on teching, you'll be practicing two things at once, which can be beneficial, but is obviously a much steeper learning curve. If you'd like to practice SDI on its own, I'd suggest going to Onett, building up some percent, and then almost touching the wall. Wait until a car comes, then SDI into the wall when it runs you over. You can tech this too, for good practice, but if you miss the tech, it should still flash green, indicating that you bounced off the wall.

Orrrrrrr if you're living the high rolla life and you have the 20XX pack, I think there's ways to practice SDI there as well... Though I wouldn't know them.

 

[-ACE-]

I've killed myself in tourney from eikeldropping so much. the timing is hard for me for some reason.

Maybe you're just not jumping in time (is pretty easy to uair immediately). You should even be able to land on the stage (grabbing edge not necessary) if you are close to FP.

Nice games! I've never seen you play before, your style is so different than most ganons (all those baiting dairs, I love it)

Lol thanks, I'm pretty reckless at times just having fun. I pretty much always get some dairs in lmao.

 

[-ACE-]

Also guys, I feel it should be public knowledge that @ spider_sense laughs uncontrollably when he ledgedrop uairs me and I say "nice spiderdrop bro" lol.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Whatever lol, Chicago won the cup last night; worth the hangover any day of the week year.

Man I wish I knew what that was like

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

I didn't really practice this on my own (no way to do it), but I've been playing for over 3 years now, so I'm not exactly new to being waveshined.

Idk how to practice this, really, but get used to the waveshine timing, it's not really that difficult. Maybe get a buddy who can waveshine and have him waveshine you.

There are ways to practice SDI, too, if that's what you're asking.

Yea, I am asking that also Fam

Yikes. Just watched the vods from today. I can honestly say I only played one good match. Trying not to john too hard here, but I looked like a mega scrub. Whatever lol, Chicago won the cup last night; worth the hangover any day of the week year.

Alright, @ YvngFlameHoe here you go. Taken from Black Chris from long ago... Place a motion sensor bomb near the ledge. Build up some percent beforehand (play terrorist and blow yourself up a couple times or whatever), then try and recover. Hold in, press R / L, and when you get blown up, swivel the control stick a quarter circle in the upward direction. If done successfully, you will have teched the bomb and all will be well.

Because that also focuses on teching, you'll be practicing two things at once, which can be beneficial, but is obviously a much steeper learning curve. If you'd like to practice SDI on its own, I'd suggest going to Onett, building up some percent, and then almost touching the wall. Wait until a car comes, then SDI into the wall when it runs you over. You can tech this too, for good practice, but if you miss the tech, it should still flash green, indicating that you bounced off the wall.

Orrrrrrr if you're living the high rolla life and you have the 20XX pack, I think there's ways to practice SDI there as well... Though I wouldn't know them.

Oh I already do the mine thing, but the onett one sounds fun, I do the one on onett in shield?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

What do you guys think is the best way to DI Sheik's dthrow? I've found that DIing diagonally away upwards gets you the most distance away from her and makes it the hardest for her to follow up. You can get out of the chaingrab by DIing only slightly or not at all like once or twice and then suddenly doing this DI when they are not expecting it. Or against a bad Sheik, DIing this way immediately will often catch them off guard and they will drop the chaingrab.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Oh I already do the mine thing, but the onett one sounds fun, I do the one on onett in shield?

No, not in shield. Though you could theoretically practice your shield DI here as well.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Another thing I wanted to talk about was what to do against fast fallers when you grab them in the middle of the stage at lower percents where you basically have to tech chase and their options are not limited. I'm thinking about doing something with this passage ACE wrote:

Dsmash is another way to cover several options (no tech, tech in place, techroll behind). The only way to escape this is for your opponent to techroll in the same direction they DI'd the throw, so it serves as a conditioning tool also. If your opponent escapes your dsmash more than once, you can potentially be leading him to believe that DI'ing away and teching away is actually safe, and this is not bad at all. Dsmash is also more versatile than the B moves, as you can charge it, or (better in most situations) wait to see their DI from the throw and then hit C-down (you dthrow, he DI's behind, you turnaround and dsmash). If you choose to charge the dsmash in hopes that he will tech in place right in front of you, and he DI's behind you, you must release the charge in time for the second hit to cover a tech in place (if he DI's behind you and proceeds to techroll in the same direction though, he's escaped you). If he DOES tech in place, the second hit of the dsmash will usually pop him up and he'll land right in front of you. In this situation people love to tech in place. Resist temptation to try to hit him mid-air, as you usually won't have enough time. Either wait for the tech, or try to grab him mid-air (great option). A drawback of using dsmash is that the first hit can be CC'd and you can be punished, but it flat out doesn't happen very often. Dsmash is a very good mix-up and the punishment potential at low% is wild.

Ganon can also use AC bairs to cover no tech, tech in place, and techroll through you. If you position yourself so that you will punish no tech/tech in place, you are guaranteed a dash + jc grab if he rolls through you instead. The drawbacks of this involve difficulty in achieving proper positioning soon enough to execute it correctly (depending on the situation), and the difficulty of getting a follow-up after landing a bair (med%).

Against Fox and Falco, I like what Linguini says about conditioning:

Usually what I do is double grab falco and most of the time this confuses their teching and they tech in place, punish this with a dair and continue.

But against Falcon, chaingrabs require higher percent and specific DI. So this isn't really a viable conditioning tactic against him in this situation. Of course, the following can also be applied to Fox and Falco if the aforementioned chaingrabbing conditioning method fails. But I think this something that applies slightly more to Falcon.

From my experience, dsmash is much better than side-b at lower percents and people do not ASDI it nearly as much. In fact, I've never had some ASDI it on me whereas I've had people ASDI my side-b tech chases quite a bit. And down-b seems kind of dumb at early percents.

So the only things that escape dsmash are if they tech away from you regardless of DI or if they DI behind you and then tech in that direction. Now apparently, running towards them and ACing a bair will cover the tech in place option and if they continue to tech in that direction, you get another grab, which will most likely be right under a platform or near the ledge where you can cover a lot of options easy.

What I'm getting at is that in this situation, it seems to me that the best way to cover options is to dthrow and then watch their DI. If they DI behind you, turn around and AC a bair and then prepare to grab. Any other DI you dsmash. This will condition them not to DI behind you and tech away from you and that teching away from you is the best option. That's when you go for a fairs, which often lead to gimps in this situation.

I'm trying to optimize conditioning tactics and throws in general. It feels like tech chasing has been deeply explored, but there aren't many conventions to it. Everyone has their own preference. But when you look at other more developed characters with tech chasing like Sheik, Marth, and Falcon, there is a method to it that you will see utilized by the vast majority of players. This is largely because these characters do not need to do reads as they are capable of covering all three options. But the ability to cover 2 of the 3 options is still pretty good. The conditioning aspects of this don't really seem to have been optimized, which is a shame because I see a lot of potential in it.

 

[spider_sense]

Also guys, I feel it should be public knowledge that @ spider_sense laughs uncontrollably when he ledgedrop uairs me and I say "nice spiderdrop bro" lol.

Dude, **** is hilarious and its how you say it and how you look after saying it. lmao

Well to answer your question @ PseudoTurtle I know how to smash DI the waveshines, but it seems like there are certain intervals where he shines me and I'm already committed to putting in the DI/DI out input. Yeah, Dave was right when he said I was abusing rolling a bit too much (a bit of a bad habit/mental block when fighting Fox) It feels like there's nothing Ganon can do once Fox penetrates his zone, even with great CC and ASDI. You're just bound to eat 60% just from one conversion. -_-

"**** your mission" - Ace

 

[-ACE-]

Getting out of dsmash is cake, hold down and away. Much harder to punish than a cc'd side-b though lol.

I'm still trying to practice the cg. I opt for the cg on Falco if he's above 50%. Ppl who are used to it are often.afraid to DI behind (fearing uthrow) so I get a good amount of free damage.

@ spider_sense LOOOOOOL CLAY bodies me and I hear Fox say mission complete. "Yo Fvck your mission!" Lmao.

 

[Divinokage]

Dude, **** is hilarious and its how you say it and how you look after saying it. lmao

Well to answer your question @ PseudoTurtle I know how to smash DI the waveshines, but it seems like there are certain intervals where he shines me and I'm already committed to putting in the DI/DI out input. Yeah, Dave was right when he said I was abusing rolling a bit too much (a bit of a bad habit/mental block when fighting Fox) It feels like there's nothing Ganon can do once Fox penetrates his zone, even with great CC and ASDI. You're just bound to eat 60% just from one conversion. -_-

"**** your mission" - Ace

You need to jab Fox as soon as he either hits you along with CC or just take the trade, it's much better than taking a **** load more damage when he gets in. Once then he decides to full hop, you uair that ****. Instant uairs from close range is kinda risky because if he doesnt commit then you're ****ed. Id say mix up your attack range with ftilts as well just to keep him in check from a bit further away. But ya the jab is absolutely needed.

Edit: All that cursing = **** Fox. LOL Ace.

Theres also that Vwins Fox usually destroys me in friendlies but in tournament I actually managed to beat him twice when he used it. I dont know if Im more on point in tournament (Probably actually) but ya also jab can definitely beat his nair straight up because its really fast and Nair wont come out in time. Theres 2-3 different possibilities that can occur in that situation. Just make sure to adjust yourself so he cant start up anything. And also make sure not to jab his shield, thats extremely bad also.

 

[-ACE-]

I just CC'd a fox nair near the ledge to down-b... It knocked me offstage but the down-b put me back on. It ****ing stage spiked him. I then proceeded to dair him offstage but he lived and shined me lol. Never seen that

Edit: also got a quintuple stomp on porkchops fox. LOL

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I just CC'd a fox nair near the ledge to down-b... It knocked me offstage but the down-b put me back on. It ****ing stage spiked him. I then proceeded to dair him offstage but he lived and shined me lol. Never seen that

Edit: also got a quintuple stomp on porkchops fox. LOL

You were probably going for style, but you gotta uair that **** after that first stomp lol. Or just grab ledge and ekieldrop that ****.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

You need to jab Fox as soon as he either hits you along with CC or just take the trade, it's much better than taking a **** load more damage when he gets in. Once then he decides to full hop, you uair that ****. Instant uairs from close range is kinda risky because if he doesnt commit then you're ****ed. Id say mix up your attack range with ftilts as well just to keep him in check from a bit further away. But ya the jab is absolutely needed.

Edit: All that cursing = **** Fox. LOL Ace.

Theres also that Vwins Fox usually destroys me in friendlies but in tournament I actually managed to beat him twice when he used it. I dont know if Im more on point in tournament (Probably actually) but ya also jab can definitely beat his nair straight up because its really fast and Nair wont come out in time. Theres 2-3 different possibilities that can occur in that situation. Just make sure to adjust yourself so he cant start up anything. And also make sure not to jab his shield, thats extremely bad also.

I've found that randy short hop uairs and jabs work wonders against fox. Or at least the vast majority of fox mains. Against the good fox players you need to start thinking about what they will do to adapt and how you will counter it. Generally they will stay grounded in which case retreating aerials (f/bair mostly) seem to keep them in shield and keep you in control.

 

[-ACE-]

You were probably going for style, but you gotta uair that **** after that first stomp lol. Or just grab ledge and ekieldrop that ****.

LOL I'll always recommend what's optimal in discussion, but I'm going for hard hits and blatant, flagrant, shameless, unabridged disrespect. And this was friendlies anyway. Trust me landing 5 stomps on a high level fox is worth it LOL. A lot of people actually have a hard time focusing after something like that so I get a bonus :> the momentum breaker.

South Florida Versus Tourneys will be on Sundays now at

www.twitch.tv/vsgc

Still no spider_sense, but I'm almost always there and tipman occasionally shows, maybe linguini soon (been talking to him some). Non-Ganons include Blea Gelo, zidane, porkchops, ESAM, Mr. F (swedish delight's brother, a puff), smilez, and other good players.

Also sh uair IS risky close in at top level, or at other levels if you get repetitive. It must be retreating and from tipper ftilt range for safety (and obviously you have more options if there is a plat behind you). EVERYTHING must be mostly reaction-based in neutral. Remember reads take place before and exchange (zoning). You can't even FP uair scoop fox 100% of the time he's so short. Instant uairs are still good but you have to you as many of Ganon's tricks as possible to keep people from getting a solid read on your style.

 

[-ACE-]

#20GT muhh FUGGA

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Whatdo we go by? 420xx? G0xx? 20$$? 20GT? Idk anymore.

 

[-ACE-]

Twitch.tv/vsgc/v/6072686

56:48

I was more inebriated than I thought. Could have sworn there were more taunts lmao.

Also the commentators don't know me so it's pretty hilarious commentary at times

 

[Renth]

Whatdo we go by? 420xx? G0xx? 20$$? 20GT? Idk anymore.

none of the above.

I go by Renth. I would rather not be a part of any stupid group.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Lone Wolf | Renth

 

[X WaNtEd X]

none of the above.

I go by Renth. I would rather not be a part of any stupid group.

Would you consider us your family tho? Although everyone here is just a person that happens to play the same character in the same game that I do I consider everyone part of my family.

 

[-ACE-]

Renth is just a big bag of salt because in another life he would never stop playing melee.

I don't care who's with me or not, 20GT is my **** and I'm taunting as much as possible. Lol

 

[-ACE-]

Accidental post.

 

[tm]

What do you guys think is the best way to DI Sheik's dthrow? I've found that DIing diagonally away upwards gets you the most distance away from her

That can't be right. DI that gives you max distance away from her should be straight away, or slightly below straight away. Against a sheik that is very good at the MU, there's no real way to make it difficult for them. Just mix it up as best you can.

long techchasing post

Hell yeah dude. One of the biggest areas of potential improvement for myself personally. Keep sharing

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

none of the above.

I go by Renth. I would rather not be a part of any stupid group.

Renth you used to be cool -_-

 

[PseudoTurtle]

20 Ganon Tyranny

 

[-ACE-]

20 Ganon Takeover

Sheik cg on Ganon.
At <10%, hold away and immediately roll to down (and hold down) to tech. You'll escape 9/10 times. Then I DI away and slightly down, or up and slightly behind him (harder for him to choose what grab to use on partial DI). Of course the later can get you killed at high% (usmash, uair) but, but after about 40%ish you can sometimes cause them to miss. And at any point you actually know you can live from the incoming fair just DI the dthrow away SDI in the direction of survival DI hold it until ASDI registers. Then hold toward the screen and try to sneakily grab the ledge.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

That can't be right. DI that gives you max distance away from her should be straight away, or slightly below straight away. Against a sheik that is very good at the MU, there's no real way to make it difficult for them. Just mix it up as best you can.

I'm not sure, but just holding straight away has never gotten me as far away as a diagonal angle. Perhaps I was actually holding downwards and away but didn't notice.

 

[tm]

Sheik cg on Ganon.
At <10%, hold away and immediately roll to down (and hold down) to tech. You'll escape 9/10 times.

Are you gonna give me a money-back guarantee?? lol. You won't escape anything even 5/10 times against someone who has their sheik ganon punishes well practiced.

That MU you can only do so much defensively; at a certain level your opponent isn't going to flub such basic stuff and you'll really have to focus on having a smarter neutral game. Of course, if there are gaping holes in your opponent's punish game, then you need to abuse the hell out of it. Much easier when their grab punishes aren't perfect.

 

[-ACE-]

$10 show me a sheik dthrow vs Ganon at 0% when the Ganon ASDI's away and immediately holds down. I've played sheiks... Shroomed, KK, m2k, kels sheik.... Whenever they grabbed me at 0% they missed the regrab.

 

[Divinokage]

$10 show me a sheik dthrow vs Ganon at 0% when the Ganon ASDI's away and immediately holds down. I've played sheiks... Shroomed, KK, m2k, kels sheik.... Whenever they grabbed me at 0% they missed the regrab.

I can confirm Sheik cannot regrab at 0% with the DI away.. however they can setup a jab mixup to force you to make a move and then they can regrab again after. If they catch you in the air they can utilt grab also, i hate that one. lol

Edit: Also the set vs Vwins should be uploaded this weekend. =D