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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

Orah

Orah

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
34
Location
Richmond, Virginia
@ tm tm 's bair vs fair knock back growth calculations was making me think about Dair hitstun growth.

I know a fresh Dair will have more hitstun than a stale dair but let's say for example:
You land a Fresh dair on a Fox at 0% vs landing a fresh dair on a fox at 30%. What's the difference between the amount of frames fox is stuck in hitstun. Ideally I'd like to know if I land a fresh dair at "X" percent I have " Y " hitstun frames to follow up their DI and continue the Punish.

I also think it would help if we knew the hitstun difference between a fresh dair ( 22%) vs a consecutive dair ( 20%) vs a staled dair (18% >). I know the follow ups are character specific, Dair sends the top 8 at different heights depending on % and follow ups depend on which way they DI but I think knowing this information would be a good start to getting consistent punishes.

Just for starters there are the early % dair > d-smash combos @ Zigludo Zigludo collected
And I remember reading somewhere on here that if you Dair fox at 0% it's a guaranteed grab.
Which brings me to dair fox at 0%
Grab him at 22%
D-throw brings him to 27%
Jab to make him miss the tech now he's at 34% ( Perfect percent to dash a JC grab and start chain grabbing Fox which has 0-death potential)
Or do something more convential like following up with a running shffl fair which leads to an edge guard with fox at 51%

At mid % I think dair to fair works but I'm not sure which specific % or specific character, Or if you're a Champ like @Bizzarro Flame you can just keep dairing them for extra damage but then again styling like this may not get you the stock consistently.
Feel free to discuss.
 
Zigludo

Zigludo

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206
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Southwest Florida (Naples)
Orah said:
I know a fresh Dair will have more hitstun than a stale dair but let's say for example: You land a Fresh dair on a Fox at 0% vs landing a fresh dair on a fox at 30%. What's the difference between the amount of frames fox is stuck in hitstun. Ideally I'd like to know if I land a fresh dair at "X" percent I have " Y " hitstun frames to follow up their DI and continue the Punish.
Click to expand...
http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...n-hitlag-shieldstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/

Knock yourself out, lol. Strong Bad's hitstun calculator.

As for chaingrabbing Fox at 34%... yeah, it's possible , but good luck lol
 
-ACE-

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
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The back country, GA
LOL he's gonna get spanked. Please tell me this goes down at CEO.

He probably judges Ian off the salty suite set vs bizz lmao.
 
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iRanch

iRanch

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 28, 2013
Messages
62
Location
Orlando, FL
tm

tm

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
819
Location
NWOH
spider_sense said:
Yeah I figured the light-shield dropping is character specific. I'm guessing it'd be great to use against Marth, Sheik, Falcon, Peach and not so much the spacies. You also said there's 25 inactionable frames? Is that on exclusive to only when Ganon is by the lip of the platform or does it still happen if he's in the center?
Click to expand...
It's if he gets pushed off the side of the platform backwards, and it's 25 frames no matter what character you are. If you hit the ground before the 25 frames is over, you will either tech or get knocked down. If you don't hit the ground within 25 frames, you can then wiggle out of tumble or do an aerial / double jump / whatever.
Orah said:
@ tm tm 's bair vs fair knock back growth calculations was making me think about Dair hitstun growth.

I know a fresh Dair will have more hitstun than a stale dair but let's say for example:
You land a Fresh dair on a Fox at 0% vs landing a fresh dair on a fox at 30%. What's the difference between the amount of frames fox is stuck in hitstun. Ideally I'd like to know if I land a fresh dair at "X" percent I have " Y " hitstun frames to follow up their DI and continue the Punish.

I also think it would help if we knew the hitstun difference between a fresh dair ( 22%) vs a consecutive dair ( 20%) vs a staled dair (18% >). I know the follow ups are character specific, Dair sends the top 8 at different heights depending on % and follow ups depend on which way they DI but I think knowing this information would be a good start to getting consistent punishes.
Click to expand...
Hitstun scales exactly with knockback (hitstun = knockback * 0.4). Just plug your attack into the equation and there you go.

Staleness is negligible a lot of the time, and it's easier just to remember the % after the hit.
Эикельманн [РУС] said:
also btw some dude from oklahoma challenged me to a $50 MM for this weekend. anyone know who the **** this guy is LOL

http://i.imgur.com/6ge91Ya.png
Click to expand...
no, lmao
 
Tribulation

Tribulation

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
11
Location
Las Vages
I've been thinking about perfect pivots with Ganon, and I think that it could be useful for him. You could use the perfect pivot f-smash the same way that Kaga uses the dash away side-B. The perfect pivot jabs and f-tilts the same way that Hugs uses them with Samus.
Has anyone started using perfect pivots or is there not much use for it with Ganon?
 
S

Superspright

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
1,334
Tribulation said:
I've been thinking about perfect pivots with Ganon, and I think that it could be useful for him. You could use the perfect pivot f-smash the same way that Kaga uses the dash away side-B. The perfect pivot jabs and f-tilts the same way that Hugs uses them with Samus.
Has anyone started using perfect pivots or is there not much use for it with Ganon?
Click to expand...
They are very good for Ganondorf. Mainly dtilt, and ftilt. But no one is really that proficient with it. It's probably the most vital tool for stuffing aerial approaches from CF and space animals.
 
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why

why

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
Messages
24
Location
Apex, NC
Moy said:
this. PM ganon feels weird.
Click to expand...
Ganon in PM has a few minor differences that slightly change his playstyle, but overall the general ideas are the same. The changes in timing of moves and the changes of hitboxes make the entire character different. I personally like the melee dorf far better than the PM dorf.

Superspright said:
They are very good for Ganondorf. Mainly dtilt, and ftilt. But no one is really that proficient with it. It's probably the most vital tool for stuffing aerial approaches from CF and space animals.
Click to expand...
How good is the perfect pivot while techchasing? The pivots could help get hitboxes out faster, which is always a good thing for ganondorf(and really all characters). Might this help with the ability respond to techchases, or am I entirely incorrect in this assumption?
 
N

Nicco

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Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
328
2015 Ganons need to start pivot ftilting. It's not really that hard imo and can be compared to shield drop in terms of difficulty. Besides if you fail it's either a pivot fsmash, which is slow but pretty good on shield, or dash attack which is a good fast move.
 
S

Superspright

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
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why said:
Ganon in PM has a few minor differences that slightly change his playstyle, but overall the general ideas are the same. The changes in timing of moves and the changes of hitboxes make the entire character different. I personally like the melee dorf far better than the PM dorf.


How good is the perfect pivot while techchasing? The pivots could help get hitboxes out faster, which is always a good thing for ganondorf(and really all characters). Might this help with the ability respond to techchases, or am I entirely incorrect in this assumption?
Click to expand...
The tech-chase response is well covered in Magus' guide. You want to go for maximum punishment so usually dair is the best if you have the hard read, and bair into regrab, or late fair into jab or regrab depending on what they do. Even side-b is better. Ftilt is only good for stuffing approaches. That's it. In any other situation something else is always better. It's still a big commitment, but it's not easy to read if you can do it out of a dash-dance and you mix it up with retreat fairs, rolls, grabs, jabs, etc.
 
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RedmanSSBM

RedmanSSBM

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Nicco said:
2015 Ganons need to start pivot ftilting. It's not really that hard imo and can be compared to shield drop in terms of difficulty. Besides if you fail it's either a pivot fsmash, which is slow but pretty good on shield, or dash attack which is a good fast move.
Click to expand...
I would argue that Ganon is so slow when he's dashing that it's actually faster (and easier) to just WD forward and turnaround ftilt instead of dashing forward and doing a pivot ftilt. You could even dash till you start running and then crouch turn around into an ftilt (but that might be too slow because you have to wait to get out of crouching animation and are fully standing before you can turn, which takes a good few frames). Pivoting out of a dash is really useful for characters with a good dash dance, since Ganondorf does not have this, I personally believe it's not as useful in terms of how fast and how far you can reach with the WD to turn around ftilt as compared to the dash forward to pivot ftilt. Not to mention how much easier it is to just WD forward and ftilt back, or even just WD back into an ftilt.

If you fail the pivot ftilt (which I definitely think is much harder than a shield drop btw) and do a pivot fsmash, more likely than not it will be too slow for it to work, but it might be useful if you know your opponent is going to try to grab you, but I feel like that option doesn't come out until way later when you condition them. Fsmash is not safe on shield if they shield DI... maybe even without shield DI they can still just WD oos and grab you while you're still in fsmash lag. It's really a terrible move overall. If you miss with a dash-attack or hit their shield that is really easy to punish also. Failing the pivot ftilt is a huge detriment, so that's why I'm advocating a bit for the WD to ftilt instead.
 
spider_sense

spider_sense

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
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Эикельманн [РУС] said:
spider sense is just mad because nobody has named anything after him yet. go get ur own kage bomb jason.

also btw some dude from oklahoma challenged me to a $50 MM for this weekend. anyone know who the **** this guy is LOL

http://i.imgur.com/6ge91Ya.png
Click to expand...
I'm a legend in my parts, I don't need anything named after me. How long have I've been saying you guys should be pivot jabbing and forward tilting? Here's a really good video by Gravy explaining the application of pivots. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtRPjZ37cO0&app=desktop <---helped me out a bunch. I have two ways of doing pivots now. I think the only Ganon that uses pivots tilts with such succession is Tipman by far.
 
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RedmanSSBM

RedmanSSBM

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spider_sense said:
I'm a legend in my parts, I don't need anything named after me. How long have I've been saying you guys should be pivot jabbing and forward tilting? Here's a really good video by Gravy explaining the application of pivots. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtRPjZ37cO0&app=desktop <---helped me out a bunch. I have two ways of doing pivots now. I think the only Ganon that uses pivots tilts with such succession is Tipman by far.
Click to expand...
Again, I would argue that this video that Gravy shows is only really useful with Falcon, not Ganon. Empty pivots are pretty nice, but I just don't think they're useful for the reasons that I stated above. I might be totally alone on this, but it's what I believe.
 
why

why

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THat video clarified pivots for me. While the technique seems useful for other characters, I feel that the usefulness of the pivots with Ganon is limited. I see the application for stoping approaches, but not too much more.
 
PseudoTurtle

PseudoTurtle

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Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
Tipman's pivots are incredible. The one thing that sticks out to me in his combo video is reading that puff's pound and punishing with a pivoted fsmash. That man's tech skill for ~2006 was unmatched by a loooot of people.

Spidey, I have no idea how you can pivot jab with consistency haha. That **** is really tricky- I can barely even pivot ftilt consistently. I imagine pivot jab would be amazing for stuffing grounded approaches. When I think about how many techniques that haven't been explored yet, even in 2015, it gets me thinking about ganon's true potential. The only ganon here who's even messed with shield dropping is tm.

edit: and rockcrock.
 
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Coastward

Coastward

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joe i think everyones been shield dropping since tm brought it up months ago LOL

also falcon ****ing sucks donkey ****, im actually getting more mad over falcon than i am sheik.
 
tm

tm

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Tribulation said:
I've been thinking about perfect pivots with Ganon, and I think that it could be useful for him. You could use the perfect pivot f-smash the same way that Kaga uses the dash away side-B. The perfect pivot jabs and f-tilts the same way that Hugs uses them with Samus.
Has anyone started using perfect pivots or is there not much use for it with Ganon?
Click to expand...
I've just starting practicing pivots. I think they'll be extremely useful, as jumping is a pretty big commitment and his wavedash is pretty slow. Micro-managing his position to space jabs / tilts and juking moves like fsmash / downB has a lot of potential in my mind.
 
S

Superspright

Smash Lord
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Messages
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It definitely does. People need to get more comfortable with microspacing with Ganondorf. He still has some room for improvement, and his awful matchups need a rework in how we approach them. A few are solved, but Fox/Falco shouldn't be as abysmal as it is for most of us. Shiek is whatever. **** Shiek.
 
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