How To Play Olimar

[Deleted member]

you throw pikmin. you have no other attacks anyway.

shield a lot.

 

[Kabuto Mushi]

you throw pikmin. you have no other attacks anyway.

shield a lot.

OK. No.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Lol, your sig still makes me laugh..

And most of Olimar's good attacks look like a pikmin throw to most people anyway. Not just the side b.

 

[asob4]

haha
reminds me of gimpy's guide on AiB

 

[Rhyme]

Dispite being a very smart player, Mow seems to be in one of his "moods". :3

 

[cHiCkEN_TeNdErS]

How to play Sonic:
-Use the mid air spinning roll attack!
-No! Use the ground based spinning roll attack!
Which roll based attack do like most?

 

[Deleted member]

I meant this topic to be funny, but there's still no refutations.

Maybe if his attacks had some form at all if wouldn't be so bad.

And yes Sonic is the same way, except he's not functionally broken.

 

[joeysmash]

go away troll... acually no don't your sig makes me laugh.

 

[Straylit]

I meant this topic to be funny, but there's still no refutations.

Maybe if his attacks had some form at all if wouldn't be so bad.

And yes Sonic is the same way, except he's not functionally broken.

Im refuting... Explain what you mean by his attacks not having form, please?

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

He means they look pretty similar.

 

[Deleted member]

Im refuting... Explain what you mean by his attacks not having form, please?

I suppose the best example would be fsmash and over B. One is blockable, one isn't. Since in both cases he throws a pikmin, you cannot differentiate how to defend against it, since one is unblockable, but also because it is hard to determine which pikmin has a hitbox, as he is literally surrounded by them. Now you could argue that you can rely on the color difference to see them if you're paying enough attention, but there's 2 arguments against that too. One, olimar can choose simply to throw the red blue yellow ones away, leaving only 2 colors. Also, his grab is unblockable and it's impossible to determine which one is the grab hitbox. So essentially, you have 3 different attacks that all look the same, 2 are unblockable and since olimar can filter for purple ones, one can just kill you outright.

 

[templar rage]

I think you just got beaten badly by someone playing as Olimar, so you have decided to vent your fustrations by finding a creative way to say "Olimar sucks"

But your sig does make me laugh, too

 

[Pikklz]

I think you don't know who Mow is...

 

[Deleted member]

I think you just got beaten badly by someone playing as Olimar, so you have decided to vent your fustrations by finding a creative way to say "Olimar sucks"

But your sig does make me laugh, too

the only person who has beaten me more than I have beaten him is chillindude829, who plays DDD.

nice try though.

next time give a refutation with material rather than a poorly developed psychological blanket statement.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

ITT: Somone who doesn't know how to play Olimar uses big words to sound smart.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Double post.

 

[Deleted member]

personal attacks do not change the character's functionality. again, nice try.

would anyone like to oppose me with valid empirical information? If he's not fundamentally broken, I would like to learn why.

 

[DarkStraw]

i agree with you, olimar is awesomely powerfull

 

[Chaser]

I'll have to agree with Mow, the fact that he has unblockable dots, that look like attacks you need to shield, is bad.
I believe he needs the dots, or he is kinda bad, but that still isn't giving a counter to mow's previous statement.

 

[Rhyme]

personal attacks do not change the character's functionality. again, nice try.

would anyone like to oppose me with valid empirical information? If he's not fundamentally broken, I would like to learn why.

Haha, I <3 the people who come here and don't know who you are. It's hysterical.

Anyway...

he's not broken, he plays off of people's lack of assurance. If you're approaching him and focusing on whether to shield or attack then you're going to hesitate and most likely fail. It's like fighting Melee Marth: both his grab range and tipper range are too big, but if you just dedicate yourself to an approach or wait for him to commit then it's possible to approach him. Against Olimar, you can feel free to shield his Fsmash and then attack, you can short hop over the Fsmash (and also grab) to attack, you can charge blindly in and hope that he tried a pikmin toss (your next attack will usually dislodge/kill it anyway), or you can spam your own projectile (assuming you've got one). Hesitate and you'll be caught in his line of fire, but once you get up in his face then it's really hard for him to get you away.

I will admit that it's a bit confusing because even Olimar's hand gestures aren't much different for his Fsmash and grab, but most players I know rely more on what would be a logical attack at the time rather than an attack animation (though I've heard about how inhuman your reaction speed is so maybe this isn't you...Olimar points his finger twice for Fsmash and once for grab ;3 ).

Olimar's range and power aren't any more unfair than Melee Marth's were and people used to deal with him all the time. At least Olimar's attacks aren't too powerful for their own speed (Pit) and at least they have lag (TL). Olimar is a beastly character but I wouldn't go so far as to say that he's, as you put it, fundamentally broken.

 

[Nova X81]

Olimar is a fundamentally broken character on every level, for the pure fact that the way the game forces you to play him defies the playstyle of Super Smash Bros as a game altogether. Do not mistake what I say for something else: he is not broken in the sense of being "Overpowered," because he isn't. He's powerful, yes, but not yet approaching the point of overpowered that characters like Lucas and Metaknight ride so easily. I would place him probably in the top half of the game's characters, but no higher without a lot more consideration of his countermatches.

In his original post, UmbreonMow stated that all Olimar has to do is "throw pikmin and shield": this is absolutely 100% correct. I main Zero Suit Samus and Lucario, and can easily turn off my brain and do just as well if not better with Olimar. Olimar goes against the game's standard play in a method such that if done correctly, can be devastatingly effective against an unprepared opponent.

Any normal game of Smash is a highly calculated mix of dodging, shielding, assaulting, trading attacks, and outmaneuvering your opponent. Characters dodge in and out of each other's hitboxes, vying for a crucial hit or set up move on their opponent. Certain characters, namely Olimar and Pit (who I will not go into here), however, can circumvent this process completely, forcing you to play "their" game.

By flinging Pikmin at your opponent, you immediately avoid the shielding aspect of the game. Olimar's Side-B move will attach Pikmin to your opponent whether or not their shield is active. Granted, his is not the only move that acts like a grab. His, is, however, the only one that you can perform while retreating. The majority of characters have to make the decision to retreat or attack: characters like Olimar can do both at the same time. This is the same core problem that Marth had in Melee, where if he was in a bad spot, he didn't need to put himself in any danger in order to put his opponent in danger.

Flinging Pikmin also gives you the subtle advantage of space. In order to not take a great deal of damage from the Pikmin attached to them, your opponent must perform attacks to knock them off. With very few exceptions, attacks that effectively remove pikmin do not help you advance on Olimar -- in fact, they usually require one to stand nearly still and assault the little buggers off of them. This simply buys time for Olimar to get as far away from his opponent as possible... or put even more pikmin on the character.

Olimar wants as much space as possible between himself and his opponent, because side-b is simply the best form of damage available. There's no point in doing a close range attack that puts you in danger when you can do damage from afar. With the added space between Olimar and his opponent, it requires little prediction to do one of two things: a safe move, or a grab. Grabbing is Olimar's best choice, really, because you can throw an opponent one way and run the other, for more space. I will touch more on this in a minute. Olimar's grabrange is borderline rediculous, especially with a white pikmin up front. Partnered with his small body size but considerable shield stamina, Olimar has a superior shieldgrab that can punish even the smartest opponent.

You may be wondering at this point why Olimar wants to be so far away from his opponents at all times, except for the obvious "you can throw more pikmin." The simple fact is: it's Olimar's weakness. Once you are within melee range of him, the laggy opening speed of his moves is revealed, and he is a pathetic opponent. At best he can hit with you a tilt, which will do virtually nothing -- with the exception of Up-Tilt, his tilts are mediocre at absolute best. As long as an opponent can keep themselves right next to Olimar, he has virtually no chance of beating them unless they screw up... which we should all know is not something to rely on in competitive play.

Between throwing pikmin and shielding, Olimar has all neccesary aspects of gameplay covered. He can evade with the best of them, has a good shield, excellent grab range, and high powered smashes to finish off even the most diligent opponent (which, might I add, also involve throwing Pikmin). When encountered in the air, his aerials serve a perfect purpose to the rest of his gameplay -- they knock your opponent away in an easily avoidable/escapable direction so that Olimar can get himself away from the person he just hit. In fact, I'd say Olimar's biggest weakness is Reflectors, but even they are nullified by his dashgrab or dash-Upsmash.

Now, I don't see why this is really such a big problem, when we have far more broken techniques like Yamsing being discovered every day. I mean, if you take a character like Olimar, and start Yamsing all about, then who knows the possibilities. He could be the best character ever in the history of everdom.

EDIT

Olimar's range and power aren't any more unfair than Melee Marth's were and people used to deal with him all the time.

What were you smoking last time you played Melee?

 

[Deleted member]

if anyone knows anything about my smash career, it is how much I hate melee marth. The comparison between olimar and melee marth only serves to fuel ego in debating it so. pikmin and marth's swords are both projectiles, for the record.

and yamsing is totally overpowered. **** yamsing.

 

[SKEET SHADY]

you throw pikmin. you have no other attacks anyway.

shield a lot.

rofl genius. maybe use all your smashes from time to time.

 

[Nova X81]

rofl genius. maybe use all your smashes from time to time.

Really, the smash attacks are just a variant on throwing pikmin. It's more like he orders them to throw themselves.

 

[Cpt_EJ]

There's also aerials. No pikmin are thrown while doing so. Not to mention, the fact that dtilt, utilt and nair utilize no pikmin at all. His grabs don't throw pikmin, they're just ordered to grab the opponent and attack, throw, etc.

@Nova: I fight close range and it's proved to be successful. It all depends on the player. Most ppl will go for >b, <b's spam and run away but for my style of playing, up close and personal has proved to be more successful especially when you get them in the air. Fair, Nair, and bair have all proved to be valuable attacks and are mostly the way I kill my opponents

 

[scalpel]

Really, the smash attacks are just a variant on throwing pikmin. It's more like he orders them to throw themselves.

This is a very strange topic. What's more strange is how people are reacting to it.

Okay, let's get this straight: Olimar's smashes and Olimar's grabs are different. They have different ranges, different animations, and have different purposes. They're different. I'm not saying his grabs and smashes don't look similar, but they are definitely not the same. They are different things.

The original post is very...deadpan. I'm unsure of the original poster's motivation for creating this topic, but I don't see anything getting accomplished here. The original poster, and everyone else in the Olimar forum, perfectly understands that the original post is false and sarcastic. Moving on.

 

[Deleted member]

His grabs don't throw pikmin, they're just ordered to grab the opponent and attack, throw, etc.

right, so for his grab, the pikmin throw themselves. Because there's a HUGE difference between "throwing pikmin" and "projecting pikmin"

fail.

attacks that throw pikmin:

yes:
side B
upsmash
fsmash
dsmash
grab, so effectively all 4 throws
upair
up B

attacks that do not throw pikmin:
uptilt
downtilt
ftilt
jab
nair

attacks that semi-throw pikmin:
dair
bair
fair

attacks that don't really attack:
B (he still throws a pikmin)
down B

so even if you want to be liberal you still get over half of his attacks as "throws a pikmin", and they're also the better half of his attacks too.

 

[Psyflame]

Though I'm sure this doesn't qualify as empirical evidence, I'd contend that Olimar isn't broken because the majority of players rely on pattern recognition and logic to answer to attacks rather than raw reaction speed.

 

[The |Egg| Sniper]

right, so for his grab, the pikmin throw themselves. Because there's a HUGE difference between "throwing pikmin" and "projecting pikmin"

fail.

attacks that throw pikmin:

yes:
side B
upsmash
fsmash
dsmash
grab, so effectively all 4 throws
upair
up B
nair

attacks that do not throw pikmin:
uptilt
downtilt
ftilt
jab

attacks that semi-throw pikmin:
dair
bair
fair

attacks that don't really attack:
B (he still throws a pikmin)
down B

so even if you want to be liberal you still get over half of his attacks as "throws a pikmin", and they're also the better half of his attacks too.

First off, Nair does not throw Pikmin. How could you concieve that idea?

Second off, half of these so called broken throw attacks are countered half the time by opposing counterattacks. Pikmin have HP, and die quickly in most cases....not to mention, they almost never tank through attacks completely. The only one I could argue otherwise with is Purple. Get a person with disjointed or ranged attacks (G&W, Ike, Marth....just to name a few). Projectiles also put a hamper on Pikmin Toss game.

After eliminating Olimar's second jump and knocking him off a considerable distance or knocking him down low enough on the level, you can easily edgeguard his recovery. His tether DOES NOT LATCH when he attacks edgeguarders. It's either a latch or an attack, not both.

Depending on how hard Olimar is hit or how fast Olimar is moving, Pikmin "wander" and become unattached to the platoon. Typically, when getting hit by a devastating attack such as Ike's forward smash, at least one or two get "lost", lagging behind the rest of the group. Until they touch Olimar or are whistled, they are near useless and vulnerable to being killed while unattended. One solid hit can lead up to half of your recovery suddenly disappearing.

Freshly plucked Pikmin are considered "lost". Getting hit out of plucking while they're flying in the air won't necessarily reattach them to the group.

Yes, there is a HUGE difference between USING Pikmin ("projecting") and THROWING Pikmin. Dealing with either of these can be done in the same way, and typically ends with little damage afterwards. Smart attacking (yes, WHERE the Pikmin are attached makes a difference. Fsmash won't work on a Pikmin attached to your back unless it has a back hit...) will keep the Pikmin from bothering you.

In my opinion, Olimar is balanced. His light weight and gimpable ATTACKS (since you can literally stop an attack by counterattacking), let alone only tether recovery balances out his varying attack strengths, disjointed attacks, whistle armor, and "unavoidable" dots. Trust me, they're not unavoidable. Side dodges, and possibly shielding keeps Pikmin from attaching.

 

[Deleted member]

I didn't say olimar was unbalanced or too good, I said he was broken. He breaks normal gameplay, and his play does not induce fighting in a fighting game.

I did not address his weaknesses or his tier ranking. Of course he has weaknesses, that is not the point of my topic. The point is that the character is dumb. Any character where half of the moves cannot be determined as defined hitboxes or different from other attacks is dumb.

Will someone please address the topic at hand? I'll make it very clear for you:

Olimar has attacks that cannot be clearly determined. Since you cannot determine how to defend his attacks, it is better to not defend against them, but instead avoid them completely. This heavily encourages camping, "breaking" the fighting aspect of the game. If you disagree with me, please give valid, empirical reasoning behind your thoughts.

This does not involve Olimar's weaknesses or strengths as a character, nor does it address his balance against other characters. This topic does not address my sexuality, vocabulary, mentality, or my ability as a player.

 

[The |Egg| Sniper]

I didn't say olimar was unbalanced or too good, I said he was broken. He breaks normal gameplay, and his play does not induce fighting in a fighting game.

I did not address his weaknesses or his tier ranking. Of course he has weaknesses, that is not the point of my topic. The point is that the character is dumb. Any character where half of the moves cannot be determined as defined hitboxes or different from other attacks is dumb.

Will someone please address the topic at hand? I'll make it very clear for you:

Olimar has attacks that cannot be clearly determined. Since you cannot determine how to defend his attacks, it is better to not defend against them, but instead avoid them completely. This heavily encourages camping, "breaking" the fighting aspect of the game. If you disagree with me, please give valid, empirical reasoning behind your thoughts.

This does not involve Olimar's weaknesses or strengths as a character, nor does it address his balance against other characters. This topic does not address my sexuality, vocabulary, mentality, or my ability as a player.

Alright, not to insult your vocabulary, but the general slang term of broken means some sort of overruling or unfair advantage over others. Specify before you start this, acknowledging this and get people to misinterpret your intentions.

If you argue the case of having undeterminable attacks or hitboxes, perhaps you should consider also arguing the case of Mr. Game and Watch. Sure, they're more clearly defined, but his ability to lash out different attacks in similar situations makes him "broken" as well.

You act as though this is the first time a character that gives the notion of "Hey, I don't need to actually be close to win!" Honestly, learn to deal with it. So what if it does, what's the point? I assume that you're not actually trying to see how to get around the "broken" but simply state it. Yes, he's "broken". Yes, he can demoralize the spirit of actually "fighting up close". The reason why these not easily determined attacks are so deceptive is because he's tiny and his attacks are typically best use uncharged, thanks to your point of noticing how laggy they are to start. If you can notice the lag, it surprises me that you can't notice what the attack is that's about to hit you.

And me mentioning the weaknesses does address a point. Why avoid attacks when you can go through them with consideration of range? Attack from angles that you know he really can't reach or won't consider (really, how often is Pikmin Chain used offensively on the ground? Aim there.).

And the topic of the thread was a joke, to make that point clear. The topic at hand was skewed due to your use of words. If you want attacks from all characters to be as clear as crystal, go play a real fighting game if you're not willing to accept one character without grumbling about it.This does involve your mentality, though you said it has nothing to do with it. You expressing your opinion of Olimar being a dumb character bluntly illustrates your mentality towards psuedo-projectiles in a 'fighting" game. Honestly, Smash barely falls into this category.

 

[Nova X81]

Fundamentally broken != overpowered. It's a misconception because normally characters that are broken in this manner come out superior, whereas Olimar's nature merely gives him a mild edge. Other fundamentally "broken" characters in the past (Marth and Falco in melee, Pikachu in 64) came out on top because of how their broken mechanics panned out, just as Metaknight and possibly Pit's do in this game.

However, while Olimar's mechanic is broken in the sense that it is not in the nature of the Smash engine or game to fight like this or play this way, it does not provide him a significant edge over most of the competition. It gives him a lot of power in many matches, but doesn't seal him the victory that Marth's extended range sword did or Metaknight's suppressive approaches and combos do. Had Olimar been in Melee, I think he probably would have fared much better and there would have been a "Top 5," not "Top 4".

This is simply because the added options of melee (L-cancelling, dash-dancing, Wavedashing... Can you imagine Wavedash-back-throw-Pikmin?) would have played favorably into his style more than harmed it, in my opinion.

 

[scalpel]

Olimar has attacks that cannot be clearly determined.

Ah, I understand now. It would be a lot easier to understand the meaning of this topic if your original post stated this clearly.

Olimar's similar attacking animations shouldn't change the entire game mechanics of SSBB. You do realize that the game mechanics in SSBB, as a whole, has been changed, don't you? There are more defensive options for everyone. Must I list all of the new changes? There are just so many, like multiple air dodging, and these changes are inevitably going to affect all game play in SSBB. My point is, Olimar is not the reason why game play has changed in SSBB, like you are implying.

Also, I agree with you that Olimar's attacking animations look similar, and are harder to predict, visually. However, that DOESN'T automatically make people try to completely avoid his attacks and just stand on the other side of the stage. Characters like Meta Knight, who have no projectile attacks, have no choice but to approach Olimar, whether they like it or not. If they want to win, they must approach Olimar to damage him. In any Olimar. vs Meta Knight battles, do you see any Meta Knights standing far away from Olimar, doing absolutely nothing but trying to avoid his Pikmin by avoiding absolutely all close encounters? That would be absurd. Olimar's similar attacking animations just forces opponents to approach Olimar at different angles, and with different mentalities. That is all. With the new gravity system, attacking Olimar at an unusual angle is not difficult to do.

Olimar's similar attacking animations do not break the game. That is, unless you're still playing with a Melee mentality. Brawl is so different, considering its new game mechanics, that oddities like Olimar are normal yet interesting, not broken. If you stick Olimar into Melee, in all of his glory, then you are absolutely right. Olimar would be broken. However, that will never happen. Olimar exists in the realm of SSBB, which is vastly different from Melee. His attacking animations do not break the game because the game, itself, compensates for Olimar's oddities with a different game play system.

 

[The |Egg| Sniper]

My question though, to all of this complaining about his brokenness is this (or at least, that's how the tone of this conversation sounds. Correct me if I'm wrong):

How else were you expecting him to play? Honestly?

That's what he does in the game: He chucks Pikmin at things 100x his size, they battle it out, die, and usually turn out victorious if you plan it out right. With Brawl, he has more options than he did in his game. I can think of a few things you should be glad they didn't include that they could have:

1)Yellows carry bomb rocks, which they plant on you when they attach.
2)Blues soak the opponent in water, making them slip as though they were on ice.
3)Whites leave a temporary, unremovable poison when they attack while attached.
4)Purple CAN attach to you, but stay on for longer and slow your opponent down due to their weight.
5)Reds literally firespike when used in fair or bair (Another Shiek slap? Think worse. Think G&W's '6' in Melee)

The whole reason Olimar was built is the reason the complaint was brought up. He's not SUPPOSED to encourage up close combat all the time. He's a freakin' 2 foot astronaut, going against people 3 times his size with a small fraction of Pikmin available compared to in his game. It's a unique spin on characters, just like Pokemon Trainer's 3 in 1 deal.

I'm not sure if Meta and Pit will go under the other broken category to be honest. Though their approaches are great (I'd place Pit under the "good" approach category. Arrows...you can deal with. People get carried away with the Angelic Ring though...), both are quite light. Meta is probably in the light category close to Kirby and Jigglypuff now, seeing him get KOed at near 100%s. Then again, that's Meta's playstyle: be fast, don't get hit.

 

[Cpt_EJ]

right, so for his grab, the pikmin throw themselves. Because there's a HUGE difference between "throwing pikmin" and "projecting pikmin"

fail.

attacks that semi-throw pikmin:
dair
bair
fair

attacks that don't really attack:
B (he still throws a pikmin)
down B

so even if you want to be liberal you still get over half of his attacks as "throws a pikmin", and they're also the better half of his attacks too.

Uh..no. The pikmin aren't grown at all when you grab. They walk towards the person grab them and attack thus no throwing was involved except the person that was grabbed by the pikmin.

Second of all, aerials are not even a SEMI throw because they're not being THROWN, they're being used as a bat, tennis racket, stick, you name it, as an attacking tool. Kinda like a sword if you may. Would you call Toon Link's fair a semi-throw because he's using his master sword?

B doesn't throw pikmin, he plucks them of the ground and they automatically get in your line.

I will agree that "throwing" or "projecting" pikmin are the better attacks, but they're not half the attacks like you stated. Only fail I see here are your posts.


And no, I don't see Olimar as a "broken" character, he's just another character. It just so happens he has those disjointed hitboxes called pikmin that can be thrown and here you are complaining how it changes gameplay.

 

[Deleted member]

Uh..no. The pikmin aren't grown at all when you grab. They walk towards the person grab them and attack thus no throwing was involved except the person that was grabbed by the pikmin.

so, you're saying that there's a huge difference between olimar projecting the pikmin, and the pikmin projecting themselves. I have to disagree.

The rest of your post was trivial or opinion and has no basis for me to refute.

Olimar's similar attacking animations shouldn't change the entire game mechanics of SSBB. You do realize that the game mechanics in SSBB, as a whole, has been changed, don't you? There are more defensive options for everyone. Must I list all of the new changes? There are just so many, like multiple air dodging, and these changes are inevitably going to affect all game play in SSBB. My point is, Olimar is not the reason why game play has changed in SSBB, like you are implying.

I am not insinuating that Olimar changes the mechanics of gameplay outside of his own matches. But in his own matches, he definitely does. It is not feasible to deny the fact that Olimar is the only character in the game that discourages attacking. Characters that camp via movement or projectiles encourage the opponent to attack and overcome their defenses. Olimar's attacks are such that they have no real form and discourage that offense, as it is simply not worth the risk of guessing what attack you have to deal with to get to him. It voids visual players, reaction based players, and mindgame players alike. Visual players cannot determine them and will not attack. Reaction based players cannot react to differing hitboxes to deal with them accordingly, and consequently won't try. Mindgame based players will realize that the odds are statistically against them to attack, even if they are better players. All 3 results are the same.

Also, I agree with you that Olimar's attacking animations look similar, and are harder to predict, visually. However, that DOESN'T automatically make people try to completely avoid his attacks and just stand on the other side of the stage. Characters like Meta Knight, who have no projectile attacks, have no choice but to approach Olimar, whether they like it or not. If they want to win, they must approach Olimar to damage him. In any Olimar. vs Meta Knight battles, do you see any Meta Knights standing far away from Olimar, doing absolutely nothing but trying to avoid his Pikmin by avoiding absolutely all close encounters? That would be absurd. Olimar's similar attacking animations just forces opponents to approach Olimar at different angles, and with different mentalities. That is all. With the new gravity system, attacking Olimar at an unusual angle is not difficult to do.

Your example is a poor one for two reasons. Metaknight is probably the best character in the game, and given equal conditions and player talent, the MK player should win. However, that's not the main problem. MK is also probably the best Olimar counter. Each of his sword attacks kills the pikmin pretty much instantly, nullifying the "broken" aspect of being unable to approach- you just cut them up on the way in. Now, let's take this sentence with a better example:

vs normal battles battles, Zero Suit Samus for example, do you see any ZSS players standing far away from Olimar, doing absolutely nothing but trying to avoid his Pikmin by avoiding absolutely all close encounters? That would be absurd.

Yes, this is actually the exact case I am addressing. I DO see this, almost every match I see Olimar in. Even in Teams. People simply stay away from him, it is not in their interest (winning) to attack him, since he cannot be properly defended against. And you're exactly right, it IS absurd. That is why he "breaks" gameplay, this doesn't happen in any other case. Unless the opponent has a projectile, like Pit. Then they spam it. But there is no such combat occuring at all.

That would be absurd.

Finally, someone understands. Welcome aboard

eggsniper: I did not address what I expected olimar to be in any way, nor do I particularly care. Olimar as he is right now is the focus of the topic.

edit: somehow I missed this gem.

Olimar's similar attacking animations just forces opponents to approach Olimar at different angles, and with different mentalities. That is all. With the new gravity system, attacking Olimar at an unusual angle is not difficult to do.

See that's all well and good, but you're assuming that Olimar will give you more angles to approach from. If you do the 2nd part of my amazing guide, "shield a lot", that means you're on the ground. This gives you very few angles of approach, namely a 90 degree span, the arc going from the stage to directly above olimar. You can't approach him from below, so that cuts off 180, and you can't approach him from behind, as he can simply turn around. Of course, in the 90 degrees you have left, 89 are in the air and 1 is on the ground. The first 89 can be shielded and consequently grabbed, and the ground approaches start that lovely guessing game that I've been addressing.

 

[scalpel]

Your example is a poor one for two reasons. Metaknight is probably the best character in the game, and given equal conditions and player talent, the MK player should win. However, that's not the main problem. MK is also probably the best Olimar counter. Each of his sword attacks kills the pikmin pretty much instantly, nullifying the "broken" aspect of being unable to approach- you just cut them up on the way in.

First of all, your opinion on Meta Knight is subjective, and you still haven't directly addressed what I am trying to say. I'm saying that Olimar's fighting style does not make it impossible to approach him. You're saying it discourages opponents from approaching Olimar, which can be true, yet you also believe that discouragement is synonymous with impossibility, as if opponents never approach Olimar at all. That is absolutely false. Any character, especially those without projectiles, must approach Olimar to win. Even if odds are against them, they must eventually realize that there is no other way to win, other than to approach Olimar. Any competitive player understands this, so even if Olimar's fighting style discourages opponents from approaching, the battle will still continue, and the opponent will still approach Olimar, regardless.

Yes, this is actually the exact case I am addressing. I DO see this, almost every match I see Olimar in. Even in Teams. People simply stay away from him, it is not in their interest (winning) to attack him, since he cannot be properly defended against. And you're exactly right, it IS absurd. That is why he "breaks" gameplay, this doesn't happen in any other case. Unless the opponent has a projectile, like Pit. Then they spam it. But there is no such combat occuring at all.

I find it interesting that you demand empirical evidence, yet you do not provide any empirical evidence that can be observed or measured, yourself.

Observe.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GEbdBwUux8I (ZSS vs Olimar)


http://youtube.com/watch?v=_F-UnI3AvlY (ZSS vs Olimar)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9a_v_9dVAAs (Mario vs Olimar)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZJNlXrn_-hI (Diddy Kong vs Olimar)

A couple of these videos are actual footage from local tournaments. These are competitive players. Now watch them, and tell me it is impossible and totally against the odds to approach Olimar. Watch carefully how each opponent approaches Olimar, and notice how much creativity is used, by utilizing the new SSBB game mechanics.

Olimar's fighting style may discourage opponents who are not competitive, and have little experience with Olimar battles. However, in a competitive perspective (which you should be very familiar with), a knowledgeable opponent will understand that there is no other choice BUT to approach Olimar. Therefore, knowledgeable opponents will force themselves to explore new tactics on approaching Olimar. You're right, Olimar's style is unorthodox, but because of his unusual fighting style, Olimar actually encourages people to better themselves and truly understand the mechanics of SSBB. Through exploration and discovery, opponents can gain the appropriate tactics to beat a knowledgeable Olimar. In this light, Olimar's fighting style is a positive influence for the Smash community. Olimar should actually inspire players to truly embrace the new mechanics of SSBB, throw the Melee mentality away, and learn the mechanics from the ground - up, to beat an Olimar.

 

[Cpt_EJ]

so, you're saying that there's a huge difference between olimar projecting the pikmin, and the pikmin projecting themselves. I have to disagree.

The rest of your post was trivial or opinion and has no basis for me to refute.

No, I said they're commanded to grab the opponent whereas throwing a pikmin is against their will. They're not being told to get on his hand and get thrown afterwards. Olimar just throws them. Their grab, on the other hand, is a command. YOU said Olimar's grab is "THROWING "pikmin, or do you need evidence that you said that?

So it's my OPINION that you're complaining about Olimar when it's clearly obvious you have a problem with Olimar since you're in here?

 

[UncleGene]

Once you have admitted that Olimar discourages approaching, you have agreed with most of what Mow has said. This is what is meant by Olimar forcing you to play his game; even if you MUST approach, it is on Olimar's terms with few exceptions.

 

[Deleted member]

No, I said they're commanded to grab the opponent whereas throwing a pikmin is against their will. They're not being told to get on his hand and get thrown afterwards. Olimar just throws them. Their grab, on the other hand, is a command. YOU said Olimar's grab is "THROWING "pikmin, or do you need evidence that you said that?

So it's my OPINION that you're complaining about Olimar when it's clearly obvious you have a problem with Olimar since you're in here?

lol. I needed that.

Gazelle, I'll give you a real reply later tonight. I'll will note two things though. I never deemed olimar impossible to approach, nor did I demand anything. Where are you quoting me from...? Upon using the Find function, there was no use of either word this entire topic before your post. Also, in those videos, the Olimar did things other than shield and throw pikmin. These things include jumping, being aggressive, and trying to find a situational advantage. None of these things are the broken aspects that I am addressing. Perhaps if you find a video of Olimar camping shield and spamming pikmin when not shielding it will change my opinion.

I'll do my best to get a decent video within the next few days as well. It's ok everyone, we're almost done here. Keep 'em coming.