How to DI (for a very special Panda)

[SuSa]

First off, read this as it is more correct then this topic could ever be:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221969

Now how this applies to Snake and a tl;dr of it:

Frame Data taken from:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242407

Snake's fastest aerial is Back air with:
Duration: 42

When hit Vertically ( ||||||| )
Back air is considered the best choice because you are able to FAST FALL starting on Frame 1. This is something you cannot do with an airdodge meaning you can strengthen your Terminal Velocity if you use an aerial.

When hit Horizontally ( _____ ):
Up Air is considered the best choice because you align your hurtbox parallel to the Blast Zone while back air would extend your hurtbox to the Blast Zone. While somewhat slower, it is still better. It appears Fastfalling affects horizontal momentum as well, so while leaving you in a slightly worse position it is still good to fastfall, then second jump when able to.

Also with my UNTESTED theory, bair extends your hurtbox possibly KILLING YOU sooner. I need to do testing for this however so PLEASE take this as an UNTESTED theory. I am still wondering exactly HOW I'd test this.
Swordgard, Niko, and myself all agree with this theory apparently.... :x therefore I was correct.

EDIT:
Swordgard, if I misread your thread or didn't understand something. Please correct me.

 

[swordgard]

First off, read this as it is more correct then this topic could ever be:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221969

Now how this applies to Snake and a tl;dr of it:

Frame Data taken from:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242407

Snake's fastest aerial is Back air with:
Duration: 42

Snake's Airdodge is:
Duration: 40

When hit Vertically ( ||||||| )
Back air is considered the best choice because you are able to FAST FALL starting on Frame 1. This is something you cannot do with an airdodge meaning you can strengthen your Terminal Velocity if you use an aerial.

When hit Horizontally ( _____ ):
Airdodging is considered the best choice because you will recover your ability to control your momentum 2 frames quicker then back air. This is because generally, when hit sideways, you don't want to fastfall so it doesn't matter if you airdodge or use an aerial.

Immediately after airdodging, your next best step is to use your SECOND JUMP (which is able to happen 2 frames sooner then if you back aired)

Also with my UNTESTED theory, bair extends your hurtbox possibly KILLING YOU sooner. I need to do testing for this however so PLEASE take this as an UNTESTED theory. I am still wondering exactly HOW I'd test this.


For most characters using an aerial is better then airdodging for Horizontal knockback. It just so happens that Snake's aerials are all too slow which makes his airdodge quicker.

Ike is another example of a character who's airdodge is better then an aerial for horizontal knockback.

EDIT:
Swordgard, if I misread your thread or didn't understand something. Please correct me.

Er, being able to fast fall reduces horizontal knockback too for some weird reason i believe. I have never actually done exact testing on that part of DI, guess i should. You could use back air, but as you stated, if you use it close to the actual side it extends your hurtbox, and the way it works for death boundaries, if any part of your body crosses it you die, its not a % or something like that. Best way to test it is actually jiggz huge size glitch on bridge of eldin.

Actually, me and niko_k called that theory about snakes bair the paralel axis theory, your character must always be paralel to the actual death boundaries it is going towards in order to make it less likely to hit it(bairs tilt point is around the neck, thus saving you a neck-top of head distance from dying sometimes.


Also i really need to update my guide on a few things >.<. Either way, when sent to the side with hits that wont allow you to jump or do anything and you are already close to the death boundaries, use up air, doesnt extend your hurtbox.

 

[SuSa]

So up air, not airdodge?

*just making sure. :x*

Didn't know FF'ing reduced horizontal knockback, that is weird.

Good. I was correct about bair.

 

[Sinz]

It works best to Dair from my experience. That way you don't extend your hurt box, and you do an auto FF.

 

[SuSa]

Bair is ever so slightly better according to Swordgards theory, but truthfully (as Swordgard would probably back me up on) for Vertical knockback it doesn't truly matter (except his parallel theory thing :x which would make small differences)

 

[Nic64]

Also with my UNTESTED theory, bair extends your hurtbox possibly KILLING YOU sooner. I need to do testing for this however so PLEASE take this as an UNTESTED theory. I am still wondering exactly HOW I'd test this.

WTF I thought of this yesterday, are you in my head...

I didn't realize that aerials are worse for horizontal though, I thought air dodging was always inferior...I haven't read up on this stuff in too long.

 

[Sinz]

If you were reading, you would have found out that Susa was wrong about the air dodge. :/

 

[SuSa]

I was partially wrong about air dodge. Updating OP now.

(But because I always used bair, and airdodging was working better. It was from a combination of a few things to lead me to a false belief. :x)

 

[Sinz]

My greatest personally survivals from good DI have been with Dair, just saying....

 

[SuSa]

Have you lived to 270% + against D3? How about 283% against Pit? (yes they were landing kill moves....)

I stopped using dair ages ago. It makes it 'easier' to fastfall, but if you use the c-stick to do your aerial and just mash down on the analog stick with proper timing (you'll get used to it) you can still properly DI + fastfall.

Again, as stated, for vertical knockback it doesn't matter AS much. For horizontal knockback it'd make a rather large difference due to how long it takes to dair and your need to second jump.

 

[Sinz]

Yes, but it was a Pit D3 team. One was arrowing and one was d throwing.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[SuSa]

Masky. Read all replies to the topic.

Also fastfalling does altar horizontal momentum (think of it like an arc...) to a degree. /theory

Also read Swordgards+mine+Niko's theory about parallel axis (their name) theory. Which IS ACTUALLY TRUE, which you can test for yourself if you don't believe us.

Er, being able to fast fall reduces horizontal knockback too for some weird reason i believe

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

My greatest personally survivals from good DI have been with Dair, just saying....

There are just practical reasons to not use Dair. It lasts really long. And isn't the greatest for horizontal knockback. It's probably ok for vertical. Uair > Jump + control stick towards the stage would be better DI than Dair > Jump for horizontal. So might not be too bad to try to get into the habit of not using Dair all the time.

 

[misterpimp5757]

BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Grenade Throw/Up Air

wat does this mean? and wat should we snake players be doing when we di?

 

[SuSa]

Read the entire topic, and grenade throw can be used in place of aerials.

But trust me, 80% of the time you don't want to be holding a grenade...

 

[GemN]

Read the entire topic, and grenade throw can be used in place of aerials.

But trust me, 80% of the time you don't want to be holding a grenade...

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding this, but you can use B moves to DI? Or are you saying that the snake is holding a shield dropped grenade and throws it upward with the C-stick? I'm pretty sure it's the latter but just making sure... And in that case, that works for DI? Lol, I guess I'm just totally lost...

Also is the theory that using bair to DI when sent horizontally tested? Or did everyone just agree on the theory and called it correct?

 

[SuSa]

Snake is holding a shield dropped grenade and throws it (any direction, I think down is fastest) with the c-stick or A button.

Also it's for Momentum Canceling, not DI. DI is only read during hitlag of a move.

It is very easy to test actually. Using the giant Jigglypuff Glitch on Bridge of Eldin, if her hurtbox hits the Side Blast Zone, she'll die. This same theory applies to any other extending hurtbox.

 

[GemN]

Oh I forgot about that glitch, and sorry I have a bad habit of calling Momentum Cancelling "DI". I usually say DI to talk about both at the same time...

You didn't explain if throwing grenades actually works for Momentum Cancelling... As it seems like you said it does 0o.

 

[SuSa]

It works exactly like performing an aerial, except it's quicker.

 

[misterpimp5757]

can someone tell me wat hurtbox is?

 

[Exia 00]

Cool thread. I need to better my DI...

Brawl is fun :D

 

[SuSa]

can someone tell me wat hurtbox is?

It's the thing a hitbox collides with when they hit you.

AKA:
It's Snake

 

[swordgard]

Yes, but it was a Pit D3 team. One was arrowing and one was d throwing.

You can dair, it auto fast falls, but in theory, the same can be done with bair/up air since you can still fast fall on frame 1.