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How to ascend

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Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
560
Hey guys, I have a lot of general questions to ask tonight. Basically, I've been playing a lot lately, and really trying to work on improving everything I can about my game. Right now, I feel like I'm at the point where in any given match, I SHOULD be able to at least try to do anything that I want, I have the technical capability to do it, just not necessarily consistently. But, I realize that tech skill is not going to carry me to the top, there has to be more. Granted, I will keep working on techskill until I can become as fast as I want and as consistent as I want, but I also want to spend this time training trying to learn the game in a better way. I know that there has to be things in this game that I'm not realizing yet, certain mindgames that I'm not playing. So, I'll ask this question. When seeking to improve, what are the most important things to become amazing at, and how do you train yourself to see the opportunity to use these things? Also, how do you go about creating the most pressure possible? You have to understand that my playstyle is literally about rushing people down as hard as possible. When I reach my peak in skill, I want to be able to follow people around constantly harassing people, but I have to learn to be able to dismantle people's defenses, and do it quickly. I just have to figure out exactly how. First I have to find out what makes a good player great, and then I have to figure out how to go from great to godlike. I know that it's possible to make this jump fast, or else Mang0 wouldn't have done it. I'm sorry for this wall of text, but hopefully you guys have some insight.

Tl:dr: What are the most important epiphanies to have about this game in order to become amazing and create the best pressure possible?
 

Gea

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
4,236
Location
Houston, Texas
Find someone willing to try stuff out with you, and find stuff that catches you often in a match (say, a falco shine->grab on your shield or you always seem to not be able to do anything about a certain character teching) and work on finding solutions. Even if you know the solution in your head, sometimes transferring that takes practice that one can't consistently get by just playing normally.

So watch your own matches, and if you see reoccuring mistakes or gaps in your game, seal them.
 

bertbusdriver

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
883
Location
Norcal
bcow has beef with renth but i have no idea why. pretty sure they've never met in real life.

EDIT: JUST NOTICED "BCOW HAS BEEF" I AM A PUNTASTIC PERSON
 

The Irish Mafia

Banned via Administration
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
4,487
Location
cping you to Mute at a MDZ tourney
Techskill is the only thing you can practice by yourself and it really only applies after you get a first hit. The thing you should be focusing on "learning" is neutral game. Watch falcons and imagine your own actions in their situations. When do they go for something you wouldn't? When do they wait an extra beat when you would've already gone in? How do they close or create space between themselves and the opponent without throwing moves? When do they go on platforms? etc.
You can learn offense from combo videos and level 1 computers. Just keep in mind the actual rules of combos: they have preset responses to techchase situations, so try to cue them and respond properly. When air comboing, they jump after about one second of being out of hitstun. Chances are you know how long hitstun actually applies. Keep strict criteria to determine whether or not it'll actually work on a human being.
Learning defense / post being hit game is a lot less applicable because as falcon, it's safe to assume you'll be comboed to death once your opponent gets their tech chase into launcher. The only thing you can do is play vs people who will **** you up and try different DI, tech patterns, jump timings, and combo breaker moves. Variety is the only thing that counts in this aspect; if anyone does the same thing in a defensive situation, it doesn't matter how good they are, they're being a scrub.
 

gravy

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
560
Even though I know Hax and many other players who are better than I disagree with my choice of being aggressive, I legitimately can't use a defensive playstyle. I have to be aggressive in every game that I play, it's how I've always been. Granted, it definitely seems harder to maintain constant aggression with Falcon, as opposed to the space animals, but I feel like if I'm just better than the people I play against, I should be able to be as aggressive as I want. As far as the neutral game goes, I feel like these are my goals right now.
1. I have to maintain near perfect spacing, and understand how to make the spacing perfect. I think this sometimes means something as simple as being at the max range, but it seems like sometimes it might mean more. Let me give you a scenario. Imagine that as falcon, you have landed a perfectly low and far away nair on the front of marth's shield. Instead of just doing it again, maybe I should start the other nair while moving through marth, so by the second hit I hit the back of his shield and if he tried to wavedash backward oos, I'll hit his retreat and be able to combo into x. It seems like there are situations like that where spacing is more complicated than it seems to be.
2. I have to be able to recognize the instant defensive options become available. One thing I think I've had a lot of trouble with is getting hit with things like spotdodge shine because I think that the falco is still in teching animation or is still in lag for some reason. It seems like amazing players have a much better sense of timing than normal players, not only in continuing their combos, but also in the neutral position in general. How do I train myself to always know when not to attack, and how do I learn the best things to be doing with the time I gained by not attacking?
3. Pressure. Pressure feels like the most important thing I can keep working on, but it is also INCREDIBLY difficult. It's easy enough to land aerials into gentlemans and **** like that, but if I want to become a great, my pressure needs to become much more airtight. I need to be able to pressure people into doing whatever I want, and I need to punish the **** out of whatever they did. This should include pressuring people to wavedash oos, jump oos, roll, spotdodge, wiff attacks, go to platforms, even just running away. If I'm dedicating myself to this aggressive playstyle, I need to be able to make sure the game is ALWAYS being played on my terms. People need to feel nervous all the time when they're playing against me, or else I won't be able to maintain the style that I want. Which brings me to my next idea. Maybe developing a monstrously good out of shield game is one of the keys to maintaining pressure. I feel like I could use an amazing oos game to just stay on top of people, rushing them down, pressuring them into attacking, shielding, getting out, and punishing the hell out of them. Maybe it would give me the mobility I need to establish my presence. But other than that, how does one become better at pressuring? Maybe I should just study what people do in certain situations, and just have a preconceived plan to beat it, or maybe I should focus on putting people in those situations and trying to react to whatever they do. For example, if I'm trying to force someone to wavedash oos, maybe I can just concentrate really hard on reacting to the wavedash so that I can have an amplified reaction time for it, but also try to be focused enough to punish a jump out of shield or an aerial out of shield.
Anyways, I started to ramble a bit, but these have kind of been my thoughts lately, I'd love to hear what you guys think about it.
Irish Mafia, I was thinking about getting hacked melee so I can visually see when things are in hitstun (if that's possible) I feel like that would help my combo game and maybe convince me to wiggle out a little faster...
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
heres a tip vs fox:

foxes in aggro position are in 2 modes: n-air/b-air fest and grabs

the best foxes mix it up well, but recognizing which state of mind the fox players in makes it a lot easier to bait/react/approach/pressure

theres definitive shield grab spots that even the top 5% of foxes will mess up, for example, a really fast short hop b-air fast falled not done late (if u can visualize) and not spaced out of shield grab range is grabbable 100%. Sometimes its worth going for grab due to risk/reward scenario (assuming u can smash-DI shine and/or they can't follow it up with up-smash or w/e) if their tech skill is sucking. ADAPT

foxes in defense will do dash dance camp vs shine/up-tilt/aerial ETC. One of my favorite things to do vs scrub dash dance foxes is to simply run straight at them and do an overshoot grab to catch their crap dash dance. Works on pros too sometimes

as for actual situations in that matchup, there's so many tiny nuances that you can take advantage of for the tiniest of mistakes on fox's part. for a semi bad example look up me vs Sniper on stabs channel

will make better post when i don't have to go to class

==

lastly, theres a good amount of advice in this topic but i recommend to take it all with a grain of salt. To me in almost virtually all matchups pure defense/ run away tactics is non-ideal. There's clear cut spots where approaching/ pressuring is GOOD

And one last tip, if you are an aerial spammer to gentleman for example, most people will either crouch the jabs of the gentlemen, block --> roll away. MIX IT UP and simply do something like strong knee on shield to straight grab, another option is to do jab --> grab, jabx2 --> grab, really slow *** jabs that look like u are going to gentlemen --> grab, etc you get the picture. Falcon's "shield-pressure" being successful is highly mix-up based, a good amount more so than other top tier characters
 

ShrieK1295

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Messages
371
Something that I have been wondering about is how to use Falcon's vertical movement to control space and threaten the opponent. I've seen Mango spam full hops and I've never been able to figure out why this is good.
 

The Irish Mafia

Banned via Administration
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
4,487
Location
cping you to Mute at a MDZ tourney
Granted, it definitely seems harder to maintain constant aggression with Falcon, as opposed to the space animals, but I feel like if I'm just better than the people I play against, I should be able to be as aggressive as I want. As far as the neutral game goes, I feel like these are my goals right now.
Being "agressive" may seem like a style choice to you, but to your opponents, it's you jumping at them repeatedly. If you're approaching, then there's an answer to that, and unless you're a spacie or peach you can't really just mash your tech skill and win the trade. While being "better" than your opponent may seem like the way around this problem, you gotta consider what actually being better means. Most of the time, it's just being more consistent, or a more well rounded skillset, sometimes a combination of the two. So do what you can: Have consistent followups, and have a solid approach. But you're not helping yourself if you're placing your style of play over winning. Falcon's really good at moving in, but once he's in, he's pretty vulnerable. Why not use his skillset for getting out, too?

in summary, don't plow headfirst into bad situations. It's asking to get *****, and if you keep doing it, you'll keep getting *****, because you're falcon.

1. I have to maintain near perfect spacing, and understand how to make the spacing perfect. I think this sometimes means something as simple as being at the max range, but it seems like sometimes it might mean more. Let me give you a scenario. Imagine that as falcon, you have landed a perfectly low and far away nair on the front of marth's shield. Instead of just doing it again, maybe I should start the other nair while moving through marth, so by the second hit I hit the back of his shield and if he tried to wavedash backward oos, I'll hit his retreat and be able to combo into x. It seems like there are situations like that where spacing is more complicated than it seems to be.
This is correct but I suggest you remove the "move length" concept of spacing from the equation. Like, if you're throwing nairs and you end up in shield grab range, then you've got a problem. But otherwise don't be too concerned with it, falcon's range is kinda ***.
What he does have though is a *****ing jump heights, the illest running speed and a ****ton of momentum. Your spacing should be more concerned with where you're jumping from, where the strong parts / sweetspots of your attacks are going to be in your jump arc, and where you're landing and what you're doing to mix up upon landing. Then, if your move gets blocked, who gives a ****! You're out of there by now.
The best advice I can give you in this situation to move before you attack. Good players make more adjustments to where they are before they throw a move, especially in close quarters.

2. I have to be able to recognize the instant defensive options become available. One thing I think I've had a lot of trouble with is getting hit with things like spotdodge shine because I think that the falco is still in teching animation or is still in lag for some reason. It seems like amazing players have a much better sense of timing than normal players, not only in continuing their combos, but also in the neutral position in general. How do I train myself to always know when not to attack, and how do I learn the best things to be doing with the time I gained by not attacking?
David Sirlin wrote some cool stuff to this same tune. Chapters 8 & 9 of his book, Critical Points and Presence of Mind, respectively, have segments that talk about hard knockdown and audio cues. I suggest reading both pages, it's good fighting game food for thought.
Most people will tell you "experience", but when on the offensive, I find I hit my tech chase when I make a mental note of whatever happened last time. if they neutral tech shined and I got hit, I need to remember they did that, because otherwise I'll get hit by it again. That's wasting a valuable techchase, and the knowing I wasted something valuable helps me keep it in mind.

In neutral, it's a similar deal. "I overshot a nair last time we were both under the platforms. I won't overshoot a nair again unless I can put him in a position where he's retreating." While it's OK to try things from neutral, it's not ok to make the same mistake twice. That's called a habit.

3. Pressure. . . If I'm dedicating myself to this aggressive playstyle, I need to be able to make sure the game is ALWAYS being played on my terms.
I cut out that paragraph because S2J's knowledge basically covered it. However, I did want to respond to this sentence. This is the something said by someone who watches falcon, but not someone who plays him. Falcon just can't apply that kind of pressure. To have that kind of presence requires punishing the opponent for everything they try in neutral; they'll be too scared to try anything after getting their 3rd stock **** comboed away. Doing so involves safely closing distance until your opponent tries something, then out-manuvering and punishing.
Key word is "Safely". If your opponent can make falcon shed blood in neutral, they know he isn't a god, and then they aren't scared anymore. It seems to me like you want that kind of presence for the sake of not playing the neutral game.


Irish Mafia, I was thinking about getting hacked melee so I can visually see when things are in hitstun (if that's possible) I feel like that would help my combo game and maybe convince me to wiggle out a little faster...
I believe that all melee players have a better sense for hitstun than they could describe. We've all seen fox get juggled a billion times. And BTW, wiggling out doesn't decrease hitstun, it only gets you out of tumble faster. It doesn't help falcon out much, because you can aerial/jump out of tumble just as easily.
 

gravy

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
560
I have a lot of stuff to say, but school is stuffing my **** right now. Mafia, I think you got the wrong idea, I don't want to just be attacking blindly, but I do want to be pressuring as hard as possible and punishing the **** out of things that I pressure people into doing. I understand that sometimes establishing space and position is the best way to keep the pressure going. Also, I agree with Shriek about the vertical spacing thing. Watching mango full hop knee every IC player confuses me.
 

The Irish Mafia

Banned via Administration
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
4,487
Location
cping you to Mute at a MDZ tourney
Pressuring is a matter of reducing your opponent's space once they make themselves vulnerable. It involves remaining safe until that vulnerability shows itself to you. Being "safe" is hard, but you mostly just need to have that goal in mind in order to have good pressure. Once you're in, pressuring isn't much more than shffling knees in roll spots while mixing in dash dancing to mesmerize them into rolling. Also using your no ff shorthop fair/dair to jump over shieldgrabs *****.

Remember that they can be vulnerable at unexpected times. If they're dding full screen, sometimes you can just fullhop ff knee fullscreen and it'll connect. Sure, it's overcommitment, but commitment with falcon is highly rewarding if you guess right.

Mango doing the fullhop thing is just him utilizing falcon's awesome jump. He has a lot of control over his aerial mobility, so he'll just go up there, see if they swing at him, and punish. If they don't, he'll find a safe way to get back on the ground, usually by using knee to cover his landing. Their attempts to punish his landing + his fastfall mixups with his horisontal spacing = random fullhop knees.
 
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