How old is the demo really? (also a case for optimism)

[Mensrea]

Smash 4 has seen a lot of criticism recently. Criticism that I agree with, and worry about. Aerial lag is ridiculous, it's hard to move how you want to, and defense is powerful as hell. To me, someone who wants smash4 to be amazing, these criticism are quite deflating, and worrisome.

That said, I think there is a pretty solid case for optimism, and I still think there is a very solid chance that the game will be more in line with what myself, and many fans of the series want it to be.

So what do we have to work with:

Outdated Demo: So we know that the Demo we have seen was old by the time E3 rolled around. Old enough that some treehouse employees have mentioned differences in later builds of the game. Some sources claim that the build is from January. Now the counter argument to this would be that despite build age, the game is still relatively concrete in terms of mechanics. To that I would reply with:

with: http://smashboards.com/threads/gimpyfishs-brawl-impressions-brawl-talk-episode-1-added.121329/

These are impressions from a Brawl demo that was shown approximately 5 months before Brawl's final release. There are some pretty huge differences from this demo to the final game. It's roughly the same time between these impressions and the Brawl release as the E3 Demo and smash 3DS release.

So there is plenty of time for the game to be tweaked and changed. And with NOA employees asking questions from pros, it's very possible that we will see some of these changes implemented. Nintendo needs this game to succeed, and they seem to be taking competitive seriously. Granted, NOA and Sakurai are separated by an ocean literally and figuratively. So it's possible that the complaints will never be brought up to him, and even if they are it's possible he won't care. Even so, there is hope.

Another good signal is that Sakurai mentioned that he wanted the game to be inbetween Brawl and Melee. Right now, it's way closer to Brawl then Melee. I don't believe Sakurai lied. I think the game might just be still adjusting and changing. Brawl had a lot of Melee DNA in the impressions above, and by release it was, well, Brawl as we know it. I think it's a given that Sakurai starts with the previous game in the series as a base for the sequel. So I think it's possible, and perhaps probable, that Smash 4 is still getting some of the Brawl DNA ironed out.

Another hopeful comment was the one made by Bill Trinnen at the start of the SDCC Wii U combo's demo. He mentioned not being able to pull off some things in the E3 demo that could be pulled off in more recent demos. That along with his constant railing that the demo was very very outdated makes me hopeful that some good changes are in the works.

In conclusion, I'm terrified that Smash 4 will not be the game that we all hope it can be. Despite that terror, there is a ray of legitimate hope. Here's to the game we all know Smash 4 COULD be.

 

[Nielicus]

What we've seen so far is amazing, so anything better than that is perfect IMO

EDIT: Damn those typos though LOL

 

[pizzapie7]

Yes because we clearly need another thread just to point out that any negativity toward the game right now is irrelevant because "IT'S A DEMO GUYS IT'LL CHANGE BELIEVE ME PLEASE."

 

[Mensrea]

Yes because we clearly need another thread just to point out that any negativity toward the game right now is irrelevant because "IT'S A DEMO GUYS IT'LL CHANGE BELIEVE ME PLEASE."

I feel like you really didn't read the thread? I never said anything like that. I personally am worried about the game, and mentioned that all the evidence given has problems and counterarguments. I was just pointing out that there is precedent for change, and that there is a lot of hope for a game more in line with a lot of peoples expectations. I'm disappointed by your lack of meaningful analysis of the post or any real contribution.

 

[pizzapie7]

I feel like you really didn't read the thread? I never said anything like that. I personally am worried about the game, and mentioned that all the evidence given has problems and counterarguments. I was just pointing out that there is precedent for change, and that there is a lot of hope for a game more in line with a lot of peoples expectations. I'm disappointed by your lack of meaningful analysis of the post or any real contribution.

Nah I read your post. As strong as your case for optimism may be, it still means nothing to the people who disliked Brawl. All I'm saying is that this thread is unnecessary because you're not going to change minds about it. Your post is filled with words like "chance", "possible", "hope". Not everybody is about that life. We have something in front of us, we can judge it accordingly. It's not the full build, but how far into the development cycle are they? If people have problems with game from a basic foundation or fundamental standpoint, should they really expect the game to be torn down and built back up from scratch?

You're saying things people already know. Yes, there's a chance this game could be fantastic, the best in the series, genre evolving, system selling, generation defining. But following Brawl, and going on what I've already witnessed, I'd rather be cautious.

 

[Mensrea]

Nah I read your post. As strong as your case for optimism may be, it still means nothing to the people who disliked Brawl. All I'm saying is that this thread is unnecessary because you're not going to change minds about it. Your post is filled with words like "chance", "possible", "hope". Not everybody is about that life. We have something in front of us, we can judge it accordingly. It's not the full build, but how far into the development cycle are they? If people have problems with game from a basic foundation or fundamental standpoint, should they really expect the game to be torn down and built back up from scratch?

You're saying things people already know. Yes, there's a chance this game could be fantastic, the best in the series, genre evolving, system selling, generation defining. But following Brawl, and going on what I've already witnessed, I'd rather be cautious.

Hey man, I'm just as cautious as you. I'm worried, and the game as is seems pretty underwhelming.

I was just trying to point out the huge possibility of a change, and that not all hope is lost. I mean, there is a lot of stuff that seems pretty optimistic to our cause, and I thought the thread would be a good offset to the constant discussion of the negative, which even if necessary and merited, can get a little exhausting.

 

[Senario]

Hey man, I'm just as cautious as you. I'm worried, and the game as is seems pretty underwhelming.

I was just trying to point out the huge possibility of a change, and that not all hope is lost. I mean, there is a lot of stuff that seems pretty optimistic to our cause, and I thought the thread would be a good offset to the constant discussion of the negative, which even if necessary and merited, can get a little exhausting.

I agree that not all hope is lost but cautiousness is the order of the year. Reading that brawl analysis tho, the feels about what could be and what was for fans of competitive melee.

Right now, eeeeeh not "great" but Nintendo took a bunch of notes at E3 so...that is good.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I'm not expecting a huge shift from what we have seen already, but things are subjected to change. I noticed in the first smash direct that Marth had his Brawl dancing blade; same speed and everything. Now look at it in the demo.

Wait...now I'm confused... Which one is older then?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Is the January month confirmed or is that not confirmed from sources of the age of the demo builds?

 

[Mensrea]

Is the January month confirmed or is that not confirmed from sources of the age of the demo builds?

I've heard it several places. People said the demo itself had a january 2014 label on it. Can't find a specific source but I'll keep looking.

 

[VhatDeHel]

Where did Bill Trinen mention not being able to pull off stuff that he can in later builds? Tried looking for it but couldnt find it

 

[Mensrea]

Where did Bill Trinen mention not being able to pull off stuff that he can in later builds? Tried looking for it but couldnt find it

I think it's on one of the twitch streams.

 

[Hentai_Kittie]

I've heard that the build was old quite a few times from nintendo reps. I've also heard them state that balancing is one of the last things that happen. That said, I love the way this game is turning out. It's looking pretty dynamic and better then Melee and Brawl. Although i dislike all the big / power characters, i'm excited to see them actually standing a chance for once.

I think it's on one of the twitch streams.

Wasn't it on the first comic con stream? I think i remember hearing it on that one.

 

[Katy Parry]

I'm so tired of these threads

we have a million of them

and everyone needs to stop complaining about Aerial lag. It's realistic. If you use move the is designed in the air close to the ground, it would look improper for them not to react as so. This isn't street fighter.

It's not hard to move how you want to, at least IMO. I played as Zelda and she felt completely mobile. In fact, much better than ANY past smash game.

 

[xxEliteAlicexx]

I'm so tired of these threads

we have a million of them

and everyone needs to stop complaining about Aerial lag. It's realistic. If you use move the is designed in the air close to the ground, it would look improper for them not to react as so. This isn't street fighter.

It's not hard to move how you want to, at least IMO. I played as Zelda and she felt completely mobile. In fact, much better than ANY past smash game.

What are you talking about? Lol

Anyways, I don't really post on threads unless they seem and feel friendly, I'm kinda curious about the demo built too because it looks and plays really well.

 

[Katy Parry]

What are you talking about? Lol

Anyways, I don't really post on threads unless they seem and feel friendly, I'm kinda curious about the demo built too because it looks and plays really well.

I'm responding to the OP.

 

[DaDavid]

I think the case for optimism is that the build we got was a pretty good "step up" from Brawl for those who didn't prefer it and still close enough to it for those that did.

I think this type of thread is fine, but my one problem is that the TC almost always speaks as if the opinion that Smash 4 seems to be coming up short right now is accepted universally.

 

[xxEliteAlicexx]

Ohhh! Yeah, that first paragraoh in the OP makes me upset too. Back then, people enjoyed Smash for what it was, it brought your favorite Nintendo all stars together to fight in one grand game. Then when unpolished, unclean rushed Melee came around the coner, everyone forgot how to have fun... well not everyone. Still though, it kinda upsets me to read something like that, even Brawl was good.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Ohhh! Yeah, that first paragraoh in the OP makes me upset too. Back then, people enjoyed Smash for what it was, it brought your favorite Nintendo all stars together to fight in one grand game. Then when unpolished, unclean rushed Melee came around the coner, everyone forgot how to have fun... well not everyone. Still though, it kinda upsets me to read something like that, even Brawl was good.

What? The competitive scene didn't even happen when it first launched lol, and I personally started playing competitively 5 years after it's release. That's way beyond the games average life span, especially since I would only play it occasionally.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

I will be so happy when the games come out and people can form opinions based on how they view the game and we can end all of this paranoia about how much the game is gonna suck. We know the game will play different at launch. So many people have said this. I don't know why people keep fearing that this game is going to be "bad" like Brawl was.

I'm optimistic about the games because I've seen them, played them, and shared them with others. They're going to be amazing no matter what. Chill out and enjoy the last stretch of the hype train. Once we reach the station, feel free to tear the game a new one.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Nah I read your post. As strong as your case for optimism may be, it still means nothing to the people who disliked Brawl. All I'm saying is that this thread is unnecessary because you're not going to change minds about it. Your post is filled with words like "chance", "possible", "hope". Not everybody is about that life. We have something in front of us, we can judge it accordingly. It's not the full build, but how far into the development cycle are they? If people have problems with game from a basic foundation or fundamental standpoint, should they really expect the game to be torn down and built back up from scratch?

You're saying things people already know. Yes, there's a chance this game could be fantastic, the best in the series, genre evolving, system selling, generation defining. But following Brawl, and going on what I've already witnessed, I'd rather be cautious.

What exactly do you have to lose by being optimistic if you plan on purchasing it regardless? Unless disappointment has harsh physical or mental affects on you, I don't see why hoping and believing it will be good is so wrong...certainly makes all this discussion less miserable for us who like what we see so far.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

The release of the game is upon us so there is hardly reason to further speculate the nature of the demo and its ramifications - We will know soon enough. If the demo is so old that it can't draw comparisons with what is already in development, what kind of feedback would Nintendo be looking for then? What bugs would there be to hammer out since surely the parameters of the engine are ccompletely different? Since we don't know anything about the state of the actual game, pretty much any answer you could have for that would be grounded more in how hyped you are for the game than actual fact. I see people who don't go to any kind of tournament doing this all the time.

Regardless of demo state, even if it is really old, I highly doubt it will be very different from what we have already seen. Sakurai has a particular kind of vision in his head and it will play out how he wants it to regardless of what we tell him. On paper he says this game is some kind of middle ground between Melee and Brawl but in reality this game is more like Brawl just turned on its head: Both games cater to the egos of bad players but Sm4sh, instead of shunting competition, knows it is inevitable so has made some precautions and distinctions. For example, bad players can rationalize that they are clearly just playing "For Fun" (douchebag thing to say, everyone plays for fun) and has kept the defensive game powerful because new players will always be on the defense, and also speeding up the game and keeping the experience barrier low by keeping the existence of a combo game to a minimum so as to make beginners feel gratified and competent when they break through an opponent. Meanwhile, it isn't doing anything for veterans that feel shafted from a game that has relatively shallow depth. Don't be mistaken, everything done so far has been for the benefit of novice players, not for the game itself.

 

[Hentai_Kittie]

Shouldn't we have expected the game to turn out this way in the first place? Since nearly the beginning we knew that the game would be based off of brawl, and knew that the game was set as a middle ground between brawl and Melee. We also know how Nintendo games work in that they are easy to learn, hard to master, has alot for the general audience, but has something for those who want to accell higher then the rest. Nintendo games have allways been for everyone, and not for a single group. We saw this coming, so i don't see why it's such a surprise....

 

[JoeInky]

I would have thought there would be more to this thread than the same old "outdated demo!" schtick agan.

Yes, the demo is outdated, does that mean it will definitely get better? No! Does that mean it will definitely get worse? No! Does that mean it will stay exactly the same? No!

Without any specifics about the ways in which the demo is outdated, the argument means practically nothing other than "things could change".

That's not a case for optimism because the optimism is based on nothing other than a vague hope that it will be the best outcome instead of the worst, I'd rather err on the side of caution and cynicism based on the track record of the series and the tangible evidence we do have than start hoping for things with no actual basis in reality and get burned again.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

I would have thought there would be more to this thread than the same old "outdated demo!" schtick agan.

Yes, the demo is outdated, does that mean it will definitely get better? No! Does that mean it will definitely get worse? No! Does that mean it will stay exactly the same? No!

Without any specifics about the ways in which the demo is outdated, the argument means practically nothing other than "things could change".

That's not a case for optimism because the optimism is based on nothing other than a vague hope that it will be the best outcome instead of the worst, I'd rather err on the side of caution and cynicism based on the track record of the series and the tangible evidence we do have than start hoping for things with no actual basis in reality and get burned again.

I still don't see how the series' track record is all downhill.

 

[D-idara]

Smash4 seems to let you move the way you want to fine. You push right, the character moves right, you push jump, the character jumps...

Stop talking about Brawl like it's terrifying or something :/ Brawl was a fantastic game.

Also, being cautious because of the series' track record (Three fantastic, critcally acclaimed, top-selling fighting games) is sad.

 

[Oatmeal.]

A case for optimism you say?

You're welcome.

 

[wafflini]

Do people really believe that mashpotato samurai just makes these games for himself and doesn't care at all about his audiences? Because that's the feel I'm getting from you people.

 

[Renji64]

The release of the game is upon us so there is hardly reason to further speculate the nature of the demo and its ramifications - We will know soon enough. If the demo is so old that it can't draw comparisons with what is already in development, what kind of feedback would Nintendo be looking for then? What bugs would there be to hammer out since surely the parameters of the engine are ccompletely different? Since we don't know anything about the state of the actual game, pretty much any answer you could have for that would be grounded more in how hyped you are for the game than actual fact. I see people who don't go to any kind of tournament doing this all the time.

Regardless of demo state, even if it is really old, I highly doubt it will be very different from what we have already seen. Sakurai has a particular kind of vision in his head and it will play out how he wants it to regardless of what we tell him. On paper he says this game is some kind of middle ground between Melee and Brawl but in reality this game is more like Brawl just turned on its head: Both games cater to the egos of bad players but Sm4sh, instead of shunting competition, knows it is inevitable so has made some precautions and distinctions. For example, bad players can rationalize that they are clearly just playing "For Fun" (douchebag thing to say, everyone plays for fun) and has kept the defensive game powerful because new players will always be on the defense, and also speeding up the game and keeping the experience barrier low by keeping the existence of a combo game to a minimum so as to make beginners feel gratified and competent when they break through an opponent. Meanwhile, it isn't doing anything for veterans that feel shafted from a game that has relatively shallow depth. Don't be mistaken, everything done so far has been for the benefit of novice players, not for the game itself.

You summed it perfectly. The online play is one of the saving graces for me even if the game is shallow. The lack of freedom really sucks i hate how clunky brawl was.

 

[κomıc]

Things can change. People are overlooking a very simple feature introduced in the last generation of consoles.

Take a guess.

Only problem are local tournaments: Did everyone update the game? And even then, updates won't drastically change the foundation or formula of Smash 4 (in terms of speed).

But damn, at least it has Lady Palutena.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Do people really believe that mashpotato samurai just makes these games for himself and doesn't care at all about his audiences? Because that's the feel I'm getting from you people.

No, he can't, really. But he does have an idea of how the series should be, and while his tenacity is respectable, it happens to oppose how a lot of the competitive community feels the game should and could be, especially since catoring to both audiences wouldn't be that difficult.

 

[wafflini]

No, he can't, really. But he does have an idea of how the series should be, and while his tenacity is respectable, it happens to oppose how a lot of the competitive community feels the game should and could be, especially since catoring to both audiences wouldn't be that difficult.

I agree with this. However, I must say that due to all the recent efforts made by nintendo (of america at least) and soccoreye show that theg are in fact paying attention. This game is veery importabt for them, seeing as how the wii u has not been selling all that well, and I think they realise they cannot affors to mess this up.

I think that for the first time soccoreye is embracing the competitive community of his game for what it is. A different, yet still fun, way to play.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The case for optimism is that the biggest problems from Brawl have been removed(planking, chaingrabs, tripping) and the main concerns about the demo(landlag, shields being a bit too strong) are ones that can realistically be fixed in the final build, because they involve rebalancing elements already in the final game. Even if the game is nothing like Melee, it can still be competitively enjoyable if these elements are properly balanced so that characters have a decent variety of approach options that can't be shield-grabbed with impunity. Sakurai also has help from Namco-Bandai, so hopefully the game will be more balanced than previous iterations. I'm personally hopeful that the moves made by Nintendo are signs of a change in mentality towards competitive play.

The case for cynicism is that the Brawl problems that were fixed were ones which could be frustrating for casuals as soon as someone figures out how to exploit them, and Sakurai doesn't really know or care about the needs of the competitive community. The cynics would also point out the lack of ATs from previous games, even things much less difficult to pull off than wavedashing. Most of the recent things done for the competitive community are done by Nintendo of America for marketing purposes, and Sakurai isn't really focused on making the game a good tournament fighter, and is instead focusing on casual side modes. Sakurai also won't be able to balance the game, and will insist on doing things his way rather than taking feedback from Namco-Bandai and competitive players into account. (I don't think this is true though I understand why people feel this way)

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Things can change. People are overlooking a very simple feature introduced in the last generation of consoles.

Take a guess.

Only problem are local tournaments: Did everyone update the game? And even then, updates won't drastically change the foundation or formula of Smash 4 (in terms of speed).

But damn, at least it has Lady Palutena.

Updates are hardly a problem running things locally. I just finished running the first major Smash Bros. tournament in Birmingham for years, half new competitive players, and all the PM setups brought in were consistent.

 

[Bladeviper]

Updates are hardly a problem running things locally. I just finished running the first major Smash Bros. tournament in Birmingham for years, half new competitive players, and all the PM setups brought in were consistent.

pretty much, if people are playing online anyway the game is going to be up to date

 

[κomıc]

Updates are hardly a problem running things locally. I just finished running the first major Smash Bros. tournament in Birmingham for years, half new competitive players, and all the PM setups brought in were consistent.

Well, that's great to hear. Hopefully it'll be the same case for Smash 4 set ups.

 

[Hero of the Winds]

I'm sure it'll change a lot from the E3 build. I'm pretty sure they made the E3 build and the tourneys just to see what they should improve on.

 

[Crimnonin]

I wonder if we will have a public showing of SSB4 using one of the more recent builds. I know Nintendo doesn't want to explicitly talk about mechanics (talking about landing lag would just bore and dissuade new players) but showing off some changes would certainly lessen the anxiety on our end. Then we can spend more time readying our bodies and contributing to the SSB4 hype train.

 

[Rhzao]

I'm ready for what ever. It doesn't matter if the game doesn't change. I'll still be playing it.

 

[Farorae]

I don't think Smash 4 has received a lot of criticism, I think it's just a vocal minority behind the criticism more than anything.