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Deleted member 189823
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How much better would fatso be if he could chaingrab every character in the game?
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1. It really depends on what chaingrab it is.Not really. If he got a CG on every char, it would always utilize the same throw (dthrow) for starters. Secondly, it would always equate to the opponent being offstage or infinited against a wall into a free kill. He would most definitely be top tier, and he probably would not have any -3's.
No, it doesn't. The CG will always be dthrow. We can only benefit from getting this on more characters.1. It really depends on what chaingrab it is.
Not in this scenario. Swei is proposing a situation in which D3 can CG all chars, regardless of their weights. Changing a char's weight would effectively make that char a different char and would make this scenario too complex to consider, so we're keeping as many things constant as possible. Such are the workings of a thought experiment.2. Well lets get into specifics. You have to be a middleweight or above to be chaingrabbed.
I'm pretty sure that punishable air releases are character-specific. In other words, even if Squirtle became heavier, we'd still get the same air release (like Wario). Now consider the fact that Squirtle doesn't become lighter. Thus, a CG would allow us to easily rack up damage on a char that we can kill really early. Not only that, it would give us a very accessible method of reliably sending Squirtle offstage. Squirtle is a good aerial-based char, but I think he's gimped fairly easily.We should determine the matchups over other characters:
I would gotta say that Squirtle would probably become worse for this fact. He's pretty good without d throw chaingrab because we have an air release (Which is pretty much like a chaingrab) and being so light that an up tilt will kill so early. Put his weight factor up and we wouldn't be able to kill him as well (His air speed would make it pretty hard to kill). The walkoffs are still available with air releasing. So basically you're giving Squirtle a survivability advantage just so you can get a little extra damage on a chaingrab and situational wall infinites. Plus, he has pretty low traction which will make the grabs less usable (With a little extra that slopes would disrupt the grab pretty well).
Again, you're thinking too deep into this. Once more, we'd gain an easy damage-racking option on a char which dies early. In fact, this same concept probably applies to all new CGs that we gain. We currently don't have CGs on the thirteen lightest chars. Thus, by acquiring a CG on them, we'd be obtaining a great damage-racker on the chars that die the fastest. In Puff's case, I wouldn't be surprised if we could use a CG to not only rack up damage but also set up 'kill throws' (fthrow and bthrow) immediately after said damage-racking. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to say that Puff is "easy to kill". D3 vs Jiggs is only a +2 for us, and that's just because Puff sucks as a char. She's surprisingly tricky and hard to catch. Anything that helps us accumulate damage on her faster is much appreciated, even if we lose this so-called dthrow launch to send her further offstage.This matchup would probably become worse too. We don't really need the chaingrab for anything since Puff is so easy to kill and without it we can actually send her offstage quite decently with the d throw for a lightweight since she goes so far and can't use DI to help. I only think this one would really weaken the matchup like Squirtle, it would probably remain the same (Only get slightly worse imo).
Why would we air camp Falco if we have a chaingrab on him? I would just keep trying to grab him. A CG almost always equals big damage and the opponent offstage (quite far offstage). That spells death for Falco. As a Spacie, his recovery isn't the best, and the fact that his, in particular, covers the least distance of the three Spacies' recoveries means that he will probably be finished after a few CGs.Falco would really improve with the d throw chaingrab. It would really help us give out damage so we can air camp him.
I'm finding it real hard to take you seriously, but you're not trolling so I'll give you an answer. Again, CGs can only help! Olimar SUCKS offstage and CG = opponent offstage. Get the connection?With it it would help, but not a whole lot. We still have many weaknesses against this character than ppl think. He can still edge guard us a lot and camp to a grand extent and without getting good grabs the chaingrab isn't really worth it. Just suffers and that's all.
Again, no one mentioned changing weights. G&W is still as light as ever.This matchup I honestly really think it would become worse for us. Game and Watch we had a really good strength of killing him early. Game and Watch is a really strong opponent when you get in on him. It doesn't seem necessary to change his weight where he becomes immune to D3's up tilt just to have a chaingrab on a character with early kills when really going in on him.
A CG would give us the edge we need to finally come out on top against those chars. IMO, a lack of a CG is the only reason Kirby:D3 is even. A CG would make that MU in our advantage. MK would probably still beat us pretty hard but it would be a tough +2 for him as opposed to an easy +2 or even a +3 (which is what many think MK vs D3 really is).Basically like Game and Watch, but a little less change over the matchup.
Like Olimar. Would improve a bit but not by much.
I agree that DDD would become top tier (like the ICs), but this kind of change would make ALL his (affected) MUs improve. CGs can't hurt, they only help. D3 would probably have no -3's and very few -2's.So overall. It would help Dedede a little bit in matchups. It's not gonna make him a huge threat to anyone new just makes it even. He would still have a few pretty bad (-2 or -3) matchups like Olimar, Diddy, Climbers, and MK. He's only getting a good Falco and ZSS matchup really, while losing a few of his low tier matchups. He would probably be in like top high/low top tier (Wario's spot).
Also, these results basically mean that the heavy/mid lightweights would improve and the very lightweights would become worse due to the loss of the really early kills while having options against them without the d throw cg just to have a d throw we don't really need.
It would actually cause a little game balance because his -2's (Falco and ZSS) would lower and PT would generally become better because Squirtle won't die in 2 seconds.
Basically I was saying this because you need to be that in order to get chaingrabbed. This thread isn't very detailed so you can make up different possibilities.Wait, no one said their weight changes. We just have a CG on them at their original weight. It'd probably be easier to kill now because of the free damage we get for the CG. With that increase in damage, all we really need is to bair them offstage, which is doable for most off these characters. Also, a big problem we have is that Dedede is really easy to camp. A CG would not only put them offstage to stop their camping, but it would also mean that even if they make it back onstage they don't have any room to camp because they are at the end of the stage. I believe every MU would go up 1 in our favor except for Falco, however he would be the easiest -2 MU.
You know the fact that you said the cg will always be d throw (What the game has as a requirement) and explain how the weights won't change (What the game has as a requirement) seems very hypocritical (Like we have air release on Squirtle).Look at the Ice Climbers. They can CG every char, and thus, they're top tier. Now, I'm not saying that CGs are the only reason they're top tier. Yes, they have desyncing, IBs, blizzard, etc., but let's face it; if the ICs couldn't chaingrab, they'd kinda suck. Fundamentally, I think D3 is a better char with a better moveset and better properties. Therefore, if he could also CG every char, he'd definitely be top tier.
No, it doesn't. The CG will always be dthrow. We can only benefit from getting this on more characters.
Not in this scenario. Swei is proposing a situation in which D3 can CG all chars, regardless of their weights. Changing a char's weight would effectively make that char a different char and would make this scenario too complex to consider, so we're keeping as many things constant as possible. Such are the workings of a thought experiment.
I'm pretty sure that punishable air releases are character-specific. In other words, even if Squirtle became heavier, we'd still get the same air release (like Wario). Now consider the fact that Squirtle doesn't become lighter. Thus, a CG would allow us to easily rack up damage on a char that we can kill really early. Not only that, it would give us a very accessible method of reliably sending Squirtle offstage. Squirtle is a good aerial-based char, but I think he's gimped fairly easily.
Again, you're thinking too deep into this. Once more, we'd gain an easy damage-racking option on a char which dies early. In fact, this same concept probably applies to all new CGs that we gain. We currently don't have CGs on the thirteen lightest chars. Thus, by acquiring a CG on them, we'd be obtaining a great damage-racker on the chars that die the fastest. In Puff's case, I wouldn't be surprised if we could use a CG to not only rack up damage but also set up 'kill throws' (fthrow and bthrow) immediately after said damage-racking. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to say that Puff is "easy to kill". D3 vs Jiggs is only a +2 for us, and that's just because Puff sucks as a char. She's surprisingly tricky and hard to catch. Anything that helps us accumulate damage on her faster is much appreciated, even if we lose this so-called dthrow launch to send her further offstage.
Why would we air camp Falco if we have a chaingrab on him? I would just keep trying to grab him. A CG almost always equals big damage and the opponent offstage (quite far offstage). That spells death for Falco. As a Spacie, his recovery isn't the best, and the fact that his, in particular, covers the least distance of the three Spacies' recoveries means that he will probably be finished after a few CGs.
I'm finding it real hard to take you seriously, but you're not trolling so I'll give you an answer. Again, CGs can only help! Olimar SUCKS offstage and CG = opponent offstage. Get the connection?
Again, no one mentioned changing weights. G&W is still as light as ever.
A CG would give us the edge we need to finally come out on top against those chars. IMO, a lack of a CG is the only reason Kirby:D3 is even. A CG would make that MU in our advantage. MK would probably still beat us pretty hard but it would be a tough +2 for him as opposed to an easy +2 or even a +3 (which is what many think MK vs D3 really is).
I agree that DDD would become top tier (like the ICs), but this kind of change would make ALL his (affected) MUs improve. CGs can't hurt, they only help. D3 would probably have no -3's and very few -2's.
It can't be any throw other than dthrow unless you're drastically changing the game's physics or giving D3 some form of infinite. What I said about assuming weights don't change is not hypocritical, it's scientific method. Go to high school, will ya?You know the fact that you said the cg will always be d throw (What the game has as a requirement) and explain how the weights won't change (What the game has as a requirement) seems very hypocritical (Like we have air release on Squirtle).
Also, you mentioned how we can get Squirtle off of the stage better with the down throw when we already have that with air release. We basically have a chaingrab on him so it would stay the exact same thing as it is.
Now Olimar you don't know how bad it is. You will have a really hard time getting grabs and Olimar has like the best options towards D3.
For everybody else it will help out pretty well except for probably situational and/or theorycraft Jiggly Puff stuff. (This is for non weight changing d throw chaingrab)
D3 would still be like low top/top high tier (Wario's spot). He still has Oli Climbers and Diddy -2 matchups.
Also, the differences is that Climbers have infinites on everybody and D3 doesn't. If D3 had infinites on everybody he would probably be a top top tier character.
I can't believe you said this after all the ridiculous things you stated...This thread is so scrub so I'm done with this.