How is Samus's performance in the elements of Brawl?

[DRaGZ]

Okay first off, please read this:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199108

Second of all, the reason I am posting this here is because I don't have set-out summaries of Samus's performance in the elements of Brawl. So, I was wondering if you guys could do it, considering how you guys are the authorities on your own character.

Use this thread to discuss it, and then please post your results in the "Element of Brawl" thread linked above, using this format:

ZONING

• On the ground
• In the air
• Off-stage

SPACING

• Extreme long distance
• Long distance
• Medium distance
• Short distance

KILLING

• Killing power
• Gimping potential

Thanks a bunch.

 

[Throwback]

I'll give my opinions with the disclaimer that I have lately been realising how hard I suck at this game and at playing samus particularly.

zoning
on ground - does well at long range with ftilt and down tilt, but sucks at close range and sucks even harder when someone is behind her. Because her effectiveness is so dependent on spacing I am going to put AVERAGE
in the air - again she is incredibly depending on spacing/position. hard to maneuver because of her slow fall speed. Conversely, if you hit in the correct position she is deadly. Feels stronger in the air than on the ground to me, so ABOVE AVERAGE.
off the stage - she owns. bombs, missiles, dair traps, awesome recovery. What's not to like? AMAZING

SPACING
Extreme long distance - she can do anything she likes here, either a projectile barrage or charge laser. COMFORTABLE
Long distance - zair comes into it's own. MC to a number of set-ups is also gold. COMFORTABLE
Medium distance - Another good range for Samus with f-tilt, down-tilt, u-tilt and her longest-range-in-the-game grab. Can also retreating zair. COMFORTABLE
Short distance - ouch. She can up-B but if the opponent baits it you eat a smash. she can jab but the lag between jab1 and any follow up is punishable if blocked. She can shield-grab..oh wait. She can short-hop Dair as well but don't expect it to land much. UNCOMFORTABLE

KILLING
Killing Power - she needs to get to 140% to have a reliable kill in d-tilt. Fsmash kills at 110 or so I hear, but I don't land Fsmash often (cos I suck). TERRIBLE
Gimping - She has a lot of options here. Zair to eat 2nd jumps, missiles to draw an air dodge, bombs to set up dairs, etc. however due to her lack of pressure (in my games, at least) she tends to have her back to the edge and anyone going off doesn't usually go far enough to be put in trouble. Furthermore her low fall speed makes it hard to do anything to someone who predicts your strategy. I say ABOVE AVERAGE.

 

[Aran]

I disagree with medium just being a comfortable. Medium range, she's at perfect range for z-air, f-tilt, the occasional u-tilt and d-tilt too, and even sh f-air. She can lay bombs and follow up with jabs to avoid punishment at that range, or she can grab from that range if she suspects they'll shield. I would say that at medium range she is far far above comfortable. I would go so far as to say amazing at medium range.

 

[XKarasuX]

Samus is shows off awesome elements in Brawl just be aware of what ur opponent can do

Zoning

on ground is pretty good tilts have reach smashs are quite fast and do a great amount of damage
shes isn't ***** against ppl on the ground considering that shes has zairs and missles charge shots included shes beats down rushers in this area mixing long to close range improves her peformance.

In the air i find it above average as long as ur the one attacking bomb jumps while recovering down to the stage can give u a chance to dair uair etc...
should be hard to manuver when u r tricky with ur bombs this could give u some time to punish any mistakes they made and be patient when u do it cause prolonging ur self in the air feels time consuming if u just want to kick ur opponents butt

Off stage awesome gimping amazing recovery gimping as well thnx to tether recoveries long reach
bombs missles zairs C Shot to back u up as u get back to the stage or when setting up edge guards.
Spiking and spike setups ftw and edge gaming rising zairs/Mc's/Cshots etc.

Spacing

Long to close awesome

anything is possible at long range use ur imagination : missle barage etc.
Med Zairs ,retreating zairs, missles, tilts, etc.
close Bombs, Shff zair to use ur imagination, OoS, Areials, to ground attacks etc
Oh an Jab cancels
still effective for close range i never find myself over powered but include all possibilties going long to close range.

Killing is pretty hard if u can't mind game the opponent in to a KO move at the edge or land a bair in the air lol either way i suggest using a Cshot for fear kinda makes it more likely for mistakes but this is just within the stage. now off the stage very good spiking edge guarding gimping etc.

I probably didn't somethings that i should have but i do my best to stay in topic!

Mind Games, fear, Brick walls , and traps might be something to add!

 

[XKarasuX]

Overall samus can own anybody as long as u play smart

 

[Throwback]

I disagree with medium just being a comfortable. Medium range, she's at perfect range for z-air, f-tilt, the occasional u-tilt and d-tilt too, and even sh f-air. She can lay bombs and follow up with jabs to avoid punishment at that range, or she can grab from that range if she suspects they'll shield. I would say that at medium range she is far far above comfortable. I would go so far as to say amazing at medium range.

The scale for zoning goes comfortable - bearable - uncomfortable, which is why I chose comfortable.

@ karasu - samus is nowhere near awesome at close range. She doesn't have anything to hit behind her, her jab-anything is very punishable due to the lag between moves, her grab is just too slow, and her spot-dodge is ok but not great. I'm not saying she can't win at that range, but she just isn't as effective at as the majority of the cast. My opinion of course.

 

[UnSaxon51]

I agree with Throwback on all counts. Well done sir.

 

[Throwback]

I suppose I should add up the points as well:
zoning: 3+4+5 = 12
spacing 3+3+3+1 = 10
killing = 1+4 = 5 gives 27 points.

 

[Crystanium]

@ karasu - samus is nowhere near awesome at close range. She doesn't have anything to hit behind her [...]

Well, you can use an attack that would cause Samus to turn the other way, or you can use her d-smash.

 

[0RLY]

ZONING

• On the ground - Not the best ftilt and dtilt in the world. All her other moves are really just too slow or lack range to be used. Dtilt does put the foe in the air, which is almost always an unfavorable position. When you compare this to other characters, Samus really drew the short straw here. 1/5
  
• In the air - Zair and projectiles dominate here due to zero lag on all of Samus' aerials and missiles. However, it's really easy to ask for more. Faster fall speed, more priority, more range. I'd say Samus goes in the middle here. 3/5
  
• Off-stage - Samus pretty much lives here. Her floatiness lets her stay offstage much longer than any other character. Zair and Dair truly shine here for their range and gimping prowess. The sheer thought of this generally forces your opponent to play differently. Bombs allow for stalling and even a trap. 4/5
  

SPACING

• Extreme long distance - This is a distance at which I would charge the charge shot because missiles may not reach and wasting time to close the distance is usually not necessary. Samus lacks KO options, so having a fully charged shot is always handy. Only foes with chargable projectiles or item set-ups can do anything at this distance. 4/5
  
• Long distance - A projectile/zair barrage can frustrate the foe as well as put them in unfavorable positions for you. Samus doesn't necessarily have top-tier spam, but it does help against foes that can't spam back or have godly approaches. Samus' slowness really stands out at this distance when you see your foe close the distance in mere seconds. Samus would much rather be at this distance than much closer, though. 3/5
  
• Medium distance - This is usually when you would want to retreat. However if your earlier projectile spam has put you in a favorable position, now would be the time to close in for the combo. Chipping on 4%-5% with homing missiles and zair will drag out the game much longer than it should. Samus isn't safe at all here, but there are definetly others that are just as bad. 1/5
  
• Short distance - Samus has options here: making your foe GTFO! Samus' retreat options are rather weak, so you're bound to take damage here. Being unable to grab from close range when it's most needed is disappointing indeed. Screw Attack, jabs, dtilt, sh insta nair, and some others are your close range options that will give you an opportunity to retreat. 2/5
  

KILLING

• Killing power - We've discussed this for like... forever. Samus is one of the worst characters at KOing. 0.1/5
  
• Gimping potential - We can spike and we can drag foes offstage with zairs. We can't get early kills with charge shots anymore. Every now and then we could get an edgehog/tetherhog with the opponent's mistake. We're not at the bottom of the barrel like other characters. 2/5
  

 

[Throwback]

ZONING

• On the ground - Not the best ftilt and dtilt in the world. All her other moves are really just too slow or lack range to be used. Dtilt does put the foe in the air, which is almost always an unfavorable position. When you compare this to other characters, Samus really drew the short straw here. 1/5
  
• In the air - Zair and projectiles dominate here due to zero lag on all of Samus' aerials and missiles. However, it's really easy to ask for more. Faster fall speed, more priority, more range. I'd say Samus goes in the middle here. 3/5
  
• Off-stage - Samus pretty much lives here. Her floatiness lets her stay offstage much longer than any other character. Zair and Dair truly shine here for their range and gimping prowess. The sheer thought of this generally forces your opponent to play differently. Bombs allow for stalling and even a trap. 4/5
  

SPACING

• Extreme long distance - This is a distance at which I would charge the charge shot because missiles may not reach and wasting time to close the distance is usually not necessary. Samus lacks KO options, so having a fully charged shot is always handy. Only foes with chargable projectiles or item set-ups can do anything at this distance. 4/5
  
• Long distance - A projectile/zair barrage can frustrate the foe as well as put them in unfavorable positions for you. Samus doesn't necessarily have top-tier spam, but it does help against foes that can't spam back or have godly approaches. Samus' slowness really stands out at this distance when you see your foe close the distance in mere seconds. Samus would much rather be at this distance than much closer, though. 3/5
  
• Medium distance - This is usually when you would want to retreat. However if your earlier projectile spam has put you in a favorable position, now would be the time to close in for the combo. Chipping on 4%-5% with homing missiles and zair will drag out the game much longer than it should. Samus isn't safe at all here, but there are definetly others that are just as bad. 1/5
  
• Short distance - Samus has options here: making your foe GTFO! Samus' retreat options are rather weak, so you're bound to take damage here. Being unable to grab from close range when it's most needed is disappointing indeed. Screw Attack, jabs, dtilt, sh insta nair, and some others are your close range options that will give you an opportunity to retreat. 2/5
  

KILLING

• Killing power - We've discussed this for like... forever. Samus is one of the worst characters at KOing. 0.1/5
  
• Gimping potential - We can spike and we can drag foes offstage with zairs. We can't get early kills with charge shots anymore. Every now and then we could get an edgehog/tetherhog with the opponent's mistake. We're not at the bottom of the barrel like other characters. 2/5
  

ok that's a grand total of 20.1 - worse than ganon. f-tilt sucks? Medium range sucks? I disagree.

 

[Orichalcum]

Sorry i don't quite understand that "zoning" part, anyone care to explain? id like to contribute into this aswell

 

[Throwback]

Sorry i don't quite understand that "zoning" part, anyone care to explain? id like to contribute into this aswell

zoning just means how well do you think they do in 3 zones - in the air, on the ground and off-stage (ie recovering/edgeguarding). Give a rating from 1-5. The order is terrible, below average, average, above average, amazing.

 

[Orichalcum]

Zoning:

• On the ground:
  Ground moves got decent range in front of her, her dtilt got about same range in front of her as her ftilt. dsmash has a bit less and even less behind her but could mess up someone rolling. her fsmash got power but it lacks in range again, could be used on opponents that you shielded behind of her. her jab is an escape move but too easily shielded. her dash attack is somewhat fast and sends up opponents for followups, if you do it late you will run through their shield and wont get grabbed. utilt got a high hitbox and could be usefull for an early kill on platforms.
  Overall her moves tend to push the opponent in a more favorable position and i think it does it pretty well. theres not much outstanding here so ill give it an BELOW AVERAGE
  
  
• In the air:
  She does pretty well at certain distance in the air. Zair and a homing missile can screw up some characters pretty good. in close air samus picked the shorter straw imho. Close in front would be the most unfavorable. her uair is pretty good aswell as her dair. the bair is lacking a tad of range but its very powerfull and hits a bit above her leg aswell which is good. She also has the ability airdodge attacks and push them away with a zair out of it which is usefull.
  Overall her air game is good 3 out 5 airials are very usefull and at distance it gets even better. Besides that she has a really long air time and still can easily land in a pinch if the opponent slips through therefor i would give her an AVERAGE aswell.
  
  
• Off stage:
  Samus has a superb game off the stage. Slow fallspeed, bombs that can prolong your movement. Recovering that can easily turn into a trap. Tether, walljump. there are many possibilities here and her gimping power is high.
  There are only a few other characters that excell samus in that category thats why i give her a ABOVE AVERAGE rating.

Spacing:

• Extreme long distance:
  This is a very safe position for Samus is charging her shot most of the time. Theres nothing really esle to do here since missiles are easily seen and avoided. There are only a few characters that could harm samus that far away, and she has the advantage to fully charge up her so i think she is COMFORTABLE here.
  
  
• Long distance:
  I think this is the place where Samus shines the most. She can efficiently play her range game with zairs and missiles. And hold opponents at pace. Her attacks are somewhat avoidable and the distance is closed faster than youd think at times, but it works out very very good for characters that dont have: speed, projectiles, reflecting moves. Against small characters this spacing can be rendered almost useless because of their swiftness and size. COMFORTABLE
  
  
• Medium distance:
  Would be after you either you landed hits for a followup or trying to fend off the opponent. Zair is still a big factor in this range and can be used to gain additional space again. Also this would be the only place i would consider bombs other than recovering, but im not too familiar with bombs yet so i just leave it on a side not there (could be used for retreating/countering/setups). If you dont ff a shopped retraing fair here the last hit will come out low and hits any sized opponent, throwing them far horizontal if they dash at you . Samus is a NOT TOO bad situation here, its unfavorable but there are good ways of retreating. COMFORTABLE
  
• Short distance:
  Retreat or combo if set up. OoS UP+B is the most usefull move to do here besides the ground moves that will allow you do gain distance. Grab has a long delay and is punishable, running away to pivot wave grab to back throw can bring the opponent at perfect distance again though, if landed. even for a spike or gimping attempt near edges.
  Samus is the worst here. her tilt got range but its laggy, in this position you will eat most of the hits and are bound to retreat, however UP OoS once again is the greatest thing if possible to do. works for both damaging and retreating. UNCOMFORTABLE

Killing:

• 
  Killing power:
  Her killing is weak and relies on move the are hard to land. for most of the characters samus will need 130ish+% to make a kill on ground. However a spike will do at low% (shes a really strong one) and a tipper zair a bit out of stage will do the same at med%. But overall she doesnt have a reliable killing power and ground killing are setups that are hard to land or depend on your opponent doing a mistake you punish.Allthough it sucks charge shot would be the most realiable since you can set up a hit with missiles and zair easier. TERRIBLE
  
  
• Gimping power:
  Samus gimps pretty good with her zair, she can recatch the edge with her tether pretty fast to gain invincibility again. AVERAGE

 

[Throwback]

@Orichalcum: ratings for spacing are based on how 'comfortable' samus is at a certain range: comfortable, bearable, uncomfortable.

 

[Orichalcum]

Oh thanks i kinda missed that.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Samus's fsmash kills at around the same range Lucas, Ness, Zelda do, right? What about up angled fsmash?

 

[PK-ow!]

Samus's fsmash kills at around the same range Lucas, Ness, Zelda do, right?

No.

Maybe Ness does; I don't know, I've landed the bat once since I got the game in May.
I've used the bat twice.

Have you seen Lucas' Stick?


Anyway, what I am seeing is that Samus' boundary point for distance regions is just the point where zair connects, but that's slightly closer than the abstracted "long range" that is in The Elements.

At long range, the foe is too far away for zair. Missiles are appropriate and good here, though still some characters are fast enough to get through them in time to make you sweat. I would agree, though, that we're comfortable here.

Medium range is where zair and SH dair come into play, as well as all sorts of aerial combos that could start with anything from utilt to fair cancel. Also, dtilt. But missiles definitely don't work here (except for, some of the time, grounded smash missiles, though it's a tactic I'm testing - basically I'm replacing grabs with them).
Samus likes this range, but we still have to consider why Samus isn't winning tourneys - other characters do better there.

Bearable or comfortable?

Short range is where she sucks. Crappy jab, ftilt not built for this range, and Up-B was nerfed enough that it still might not catch people here - yeah, Samus doesn't like this range.

I'd say excruciating, but we just say uncomfortable.

 

[Crystanium]

Crappy jab, ftilt not built for this range, and Up-B was nerfed enough that it still might not catch people here - yeah, Samus doesn't like this range.

Samus has poor hitstun when it comes to her jab, but her priority and hitbox are wonderful. Her jab can clank with Ike's jab. I did that today a number of times before one of us actually hit each other with a different attack. It can also clank against Charizard's Rock Smash. It's not bad. Samus' Screw Attack catches her opponents easier in Brawl than it did in Melee. In Melee, her Screw Attack was like the equivalent of the initial frame of Brawl where it hit her opponent upward, but didn't capture her opponent within the Screw Attack.

 

[0RLY]

Priority and range is nice, but without speed... it sucks. Her 2 jabs (which deal 10% not bad) don't true combo into each other. If you catch a foe in midair with her jab, it true combos into dsmash, dtilt, ftilt, dash attack, screw attack, and maybe some others.

Think about it this way, would you rather be jabbing your foe, or would you rather be zairing/shooting?

 

[Crystanium]

Think about it this way, would you rather be jabbing your foe, or would you rather be zairing/shooting?

That depends on where Samus is.

 

[0RLY]

jabbing when your foe is in front of you

shooting/zairing when your foe is away from you

 

[Crystanium]

jabbing when your foe is in front of you

shooting/zairing when your foe is away from you

Yes, I know that. But you asked me if I'd rather be jabbing than z-airing.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Up angled fsmash is a pretty good kill move. What mainly pisses me off is the gimped chargeshot....eugh. It's so freaking weak now, its like throwing a nerf dart.

 

[Orichalcum]

Actually i started to love the charge shot. there are funny things you can do with it. yes i combo'd into chargshot with airials. but oh wait that isnt a combo, yeah it isnt but they didnt expect me too shoot in such situations. generally im not "saving" up charge shots like all the other samuses i played, its so much better to shoot it as soon as you think it would be hitting. if you fail to kill your opponent is high anyways so you have the 3 seconds to charge most of the time. also it can trigger a shield break with a smash missile on a weaked shield which is so awesome. i started shield breaking alot with it... BOOM! fear is a big factor in this. once your opponent starts hesitating because of that blinking cannon its so much easier

 

[0RLY]

^ If you shot everything at once, common sense would tell you to side-step the final attack that would break your shield.