How is Lucas's performance in the elements of Brawl?

[DRaGZ]

Okay first off, please read this:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199108

Second of all, the reason I am posting this here is because I don't have set-out summaries of Lucas's performance in the elements of Brawl. So, I was wondering if you guys could do it, considering how you guys are the authorities on your own character.

Use this thread to discuss it, and then please post your results in the "Element of Brawl" thread linked above, using this format:

ZONING

• On the ground
• In the air
• Off-stage

SPACING

• Extreme long distance
• Long distance
• Medium distance
• Short distance

KILLING

• Killing power
• Gimping potential

Thanks a bunch.

 

[Natch]

LUCAS

ZONING

• On the ground: It's well known among Lucas mains that the little guy loves the ground. He's got great ground options among his Ftilt, PK Fire, and Jab to name the big ones. He can kill well enough here, with Fsmash and Dsmash as his most powerful kill moves-Usmash is hard to land, and I include Dsmash because it's great at punishing predicted spot dodges and rolls. At higher percents, Ftilt and Dthrow can score kills too. Against characters with longer disjointed hitboxes-I'm looking at YOU Marth and MK-it's very possible to be outpriotized. And while he has a be punished in return. Regardless, between his Jab, Ftilt, and projectiles, Lucas has a wonderful pressure game that means you're never quite 100% safe on the ground. Rating: Above Average
• In the air: Well, he's great on the ground, but the air is another story. While a lot people go on and on about how low priority his aerials are, it's really not as bad as people make it out to be. It's still outdone by...basically all of Top Tier, but his saving grace comes in the form of PK Fire. Seriously. That move is arguably the best tool Lucas has, and that little bolt is very handy regardless of where you are. With a little prediciton, you can make sure a PK Fire is going to hit the opponent regardless of where they go. It goes like this. PK Fire on ground. Solution, jump over it. Short Hopped PK Fire. Solution, jump over that. Full Hopped PK Fire, solution...see where I'm going here. Just be one step ahead in this guessing game, and congratulations, you've just scored 3+ PK Fires on your opponent. The ability to throw out that projectile in the air is the only reason Lucas has a chance against someone like GaW in an aerial battle. It should be noted that Lucas can go anti-air with PK Freeze and PK Thunder, though this is supposed to rate the character's ability when they are physically IN the air. Rating: Average/Below Average
• Off-stage: Oh, where do I begin? Okay, to begin, Lucas can go under FD. This does not require Zap Jumping, only ATs are a Wavebounced PK Fire and Magnet Pulling. His PKT2 ALONE can reach the ledge of FD 100% of the time-assuming you aim it perfectly, which is possible with enough practice-as long as you're not in a blastzone. Add in Zap Jumping, Magnet Pulling, a tether with surprisingly long range(about twice the range of his tether grab) and a double jump that has better range and control than any spacies' UP+B, and we have one very good recovery. I'd give him amazing just for this, but the little guy just keeps pulling out surprises. If you want to go for safe gimps, just throw out a PK Thunder or a PK Freeze. There is no downside risk to these. None. As long as you're far enough away from the ledge, an opponent will be hard pressed to reach you and punish the ending lag. If you feel like traveling off stage for some good ol' fashioned hands on gimping, Lucas has two spikes-though both are mediocore at best. One is weak as hell, and the other is tough to land. Still, you have options. Besides those, PK Fire is a surprisingly good option. With his amazing recovery, it's completly feasible to just go off stage and throw out one of these. I'm not an expert of PK Fire gimping, but it exists, and I've done a few myself. Oh yeah, and you can use Magnet for a momentum stall like Fox using reflector or Samus spamming bombs. Rating: Amazing

SPACING

• Extreme long distance: Well, on the offensive side, Lucas has PK Freeze and PK Thunder. While you'll be hard pressed to hit with them, they are useful for a presure game. PK Thunder can be controlled so that only the tail passes through the shield, and the actual projectile itself does not die. It can also be looped back around to protect you if they decided to approach. PK Freeze on the other hand, is a giant *** snowflake. It's hard NOT to notice, and is easily shielded. Some people try and run toward you and attempt a punish, but the ending lag is so minimal that you'll be able to react before hand. Either way, you forced a reaction from your opponent. It should be noted you can throw out a PK Freeze, but slow it down to hit an opponent who thinks you're aiming for the other side of FD instead of the middle. On the defensive side, Lucas has a projectile magnet, and a reflector. The stick is hard to reflect with, but at least the magnet gives you a tool to prevent Fox, Falco, Wolf, Pit, Lucario, and others from camping. Rating: Comfortable.
• Long distance: PK Thunder is a little laggy, and PK Freeze is a bit iffy as well. Regardless, we still have our magnet and reflector-note, it is possible to jump, spotdodge, or roll out of the magnet the instant you absorb a projectile, so it's not punishable like a GaW bucket. It is possible to bait with PK Freeze, but that's about it. Oh, but wait. Now they're in range of the human missile. Hit yourself with a PK Thunder, and you can go rocketing into an opponent. It goes through shields, so no worries about being punished. We all know about PK Thunder mindgames, so it's easy enough to make an opponent drop their shield and approach or something. As well, you're just one short hop away from a PK Fire. Rating: Comfortable
• Medium distance: PK Thunder: Too laggy. PK Freeze: Too laggy. Tilts: Not enough range. Basically, the only option here is PK Fire. While not a neccessarily bad option, it can be shielded, because that's the only thing you can do. PK Thunder becomes the only other option here, but I do not reccomend it. Maybe, if they're close enough, you can tether grab-that thing has a surprisingly long range-but that's about it. However, you are one short hop away from a Fair or shield-****** Nair->Whatever combo. Rating: Bearable/Comfortable
• Short distance: Frame 2 jab. Tether grab. Ftilt. Short hopped Nair->Ftilt/Utilt//Another Nair/Jab combo thingy that absolutely ***** shields and can shield poke ridiculously often. Fsmash, and Dsmash. I think we're good here. Oh yeah, and he can trip with Dtilt. Rating: Comfortable

KILLING

• Killing power: Fsmash can kill well at 100 from just about anywhere. Dsmash kills at lower percents, though not that much lower. Sweet Spotted Filts and Fair-they must be fresh-can KO from just about any part of FD at 150-160%. Dthrow typically kills around 140-technically 125, since you can get in 5 grab attacks/pummels that do 3 damage each when they're at 125. It should be noted Dthrow kills MK at like freaking 120. From the ledge, his Fthrow and Backthrow kill at about 120-130% fresh. Uair starts killing at anywhere from 130-150%(not too sure here, since I rarely use it. It always seems like such a pain to hit with.) And for lulz, Magnet typically kills around 130-140. Basically, 140+ is when Lucas can start killing with the moves that are easier to land. Ironically, the same moves you were using for other purposes-Fair and Ftilt-will now start killing when sweet spotted at those magic numbers. Yeah, the number is a bit high, but once at 140, it becomes very easy to land your kill moves, and building up damage with Jabs, Tilts, Nair, PK Fire/Thunder...etc is one of the strong points of Lucas. It should be noted that, once at 80-100%, Lucas has a garunteed kill combo. Dair->Dtilt->Fsmash. The Dair spikes into the stage, the Dtilt puts them in a jab lock, which allows them to get hit by Fsmash. Rating: Above Average/Average
• Gimping potential: As mentioned in off ledge, he can stay off the stage for awhile. Even using PKT2 as a recovery(hitting yourself with PK Thunder) can gimp would-be gimpers. From the stage, PK Thunder and Freeze are, again, safe options. For normal gimping, Fair, Dair, Bair, Nair suprisingly(it can stage spike, or so I've heard) along with PK Fire are all viable options when offstage. And even if these gimping options aren't the best, his recovery means he's able to use them in situations that would normally be suicide for other characters. Rating: Above Average/Average

 

[DRaGZ]

I think this could use some discussion.

 

[Natch]

Well, that's my contribution so far. I think it's pretty accurate. I still think Lucas' Off Stage ability is amazing. Check my response in your topic for details.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

i feel as though everything is correct except for the ratings for extreme long distance and long distance.
i don't really think that they are comfortable.
in comparison to chars like falco ROB snake and MK which all got comfortable for extreme long distance, lucas' options are nowhere near as good as them. he is more in the range of bearable along with D3 and the like. he just doesn't have many options to approach or force and approach.
for extreme long distance i would say he is bearable at best. long distance is the same where he doesn't have enough to quite reach that "comfort zone" (pun intended) if you may. mid-short distance is where lucas thrives IMO.

 

[Blackbelt]

i feel as though everything is correct except for the ratings for extreme long distance and long distance.
i don't really think that they are comfortable.
in comparison to chars like falco ROB snake and MK which all got comfortable for extreme long distance, lucas' options are nowhere near as good as them. he is more in the range of bearable along with D3 and the like. he just doesn't have many options to approach or force and approach.
for extreme long distance i would say he is bearable at best. long distance is the same where he doesn't have enough to quite reach that "comfort zone" (pun intended) if you may. mid-short distance is where lucas thrives IMO.

Indeed. Lucas does have a nice long distance game, but the lack of spammability makes it inferior to people like Falco.


I think he might be better than ROB though.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

idk ROB's laser+gyro thingy is too good
forces approaches easily
deals damage along with being hard to dodge both of them.
just charging the gyro scares people into attacking, whether it's an approach or projectile.
AND
they're pretty spammable, just not to the point of pit's arrows/falco's lasers/snakes nades.
lucas' options are ridiculously telegraphed and easy to avoid, but... he can absorb lol so he can hold his own against some projectiles.
and MK... is just MK lol
he got the best rating in every category

 

[Blackbelt]

idk ROB's laser+gyro thingy is too good
forces approaches easily
deals damage along with being hard to dodge both of them.
just charging the gyro scares people into attacking, whether it's an approach or projectile.
AND
they're pretty spammable, just not to the point of pit's arrows/falco's lasers/snakes nades.
lucas' options are ridiculously telegraphed and easy to avoid, but... he can absorb lol so he can hold his own against some projectiles.
and MK... is just MK lol
he got the best rating in every category

It's the fact that the Gyro needs charging, and the laser is time dependant that I say Lucas has it better than ROB.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

It's the fact that the Gyro needs charging, and the laser is time dependant that I say Lucas has it better than ROB.

Rob can roll/shield/spotdodge while charging the gyro. any move lucas does leaves him open to be hit. also the gyro can be picked up and thrown or glide tossed to get closer easier for whatever reason. (rob has a good glide toss). all of lucas long range options are slow and leaves him immobile(besides approaching), thus easily punishable.

btw are we talking extreme long distance or just long distance?

 

[Iron Mushroom]

Indeed. Lucas does have a nice long distance game, but the lack of spammability makes it inferior to people like Falco.


I think he might be better than ROB though.

True, true. I can't think of any other ways than PKF that is easy to spam with

 

[Levitas]

ZONING

[*]On the ground

PK fire is lucas's primary zoning tool, and while useful, is not amazing. Against an aerial opponent, lucas can force an airdodge using PK freeze. This is pretty much the extent of lucas's zoning game on the ground.

[*]In the air

Wavebounced PK fires are lucas's most effective zoning tool period. They work against grounded and aerial opponents, and are usually safe with proper spacing. Lucas's fair telegraphs, and can be used as an approximation to zoning against an approaching opponent if lucas retreats.

[*]Off-stage

almost non-existant. Fair and Dair telegraph and can be used to "zone" situationally, but the high lag on pk fire makes it bad for zoning offstage unless lucas is recovering with a zap jump.

SPACING

[*]Extreme long distance

PK freeze is the best move for extreme long distances, and it isn't good. PK thunder is worse.

[*]Long distance

PK fire

[*]Medium distance

Nair, sometimes fair, sometimes Dair. Nair pressures an opponent well, and that will often work better than trying to space with lucas due to the nature of his air game and moveset. If the opponent is assuming a defensive stance, PK fire will often force an approach.

[*]Short distance

Ftilt, Utilt, jabs, sometimes fsmash. Ftilt has the greatest range of these four, jab comes out the fastest (frame 2), and fsmash punishes certain options the opponent has the hardest. Utilt is situational, but can often chain into more utilt or nair. Lucas will not be able to use this spacing game against most of the tournament viable characters, and will rely more on his medium spacing game as a result.

KILLING

[*]Killing power

raw power is decent. Unfortunately, Lucas's primary kill moves are either slow, lack range, or lack bite. His top options are Fsmash, Dsmash, Usmash, and Dthrow in that order. Fsmash will kill starting at 120ish at good places on the stage, but lacks range. Dsmash will kill a little bit earlier than fsmash, but is slow. This is best used as a trap, like Usmash. Usmash kills at 90 with DI on most opponents (Bowyer's captain falcon's survived a hit at over 100 before), but is too slow to use on any consistent basis.

[*]Gimping potential

Medium to medium bad depending on the opponent. PK thunder works for stagespikes well on certain characters, PK fire is very funny against Ike specifically, and Bair spikes will often catch an opponent offguard. Dair is neigh useless for gimping.




I didn't read many previous posts, so feel free to comment/agree/disagree so that this can get solidified.

 

[DRaGZ]

It's the fact that the Gyro needs charging, and the laser is time dependant that I say Lucas has it better than ROB.

A decent R.O.B., at this range, will start up his gyro and cancel it immediately to bait an approach and put him at a distance where he's far more comfortable.

Also, a "gyro pop" is pretty fast and the initial charge time is somewhat negligible at this range.

Nevertheless, R.O.B.'s options here are pretty limited, hence why he's uncomfortable, especially when compared to what other characters can do at this range.

I think this is where Lucas wants to be for a lot of the match, imo, but I don't play Lucas so I dunno for sure.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

ZONING
On the ground - PK Freeze won't hit anyone at long range, but it's an effective way to make your presence felt even when you're nowhere near the opponent. PK Thunder does the same thing but worse. PK Fire can be used effectively on grounded opponents from the ground, in a short hop, or wavebounced, depending on what you want to do with it. For close range needs, Lucas's jab combo is the third fastest in the game, coming out on frame 2, and ftilt does a good job at providing cover with it's good sweetspot range. Above Average.

In the air - Lucas's aerials are fantastic at aiding a grounded assault. Short hopped nairs can chain together if you avoid hitting with the knockback blow and dair leads to various combos and KOs depending on percent. However, his aerial game is almost exclusively used to aid his ground game and get opponents out of his face. On its own, it's nothing special. Below Average.

Off-stage - This is where Lucas really shines. Being one of three characters with a controllable projectile automatically pushes him up a rank in edgeguarding capabilities, and he has two spikes to choose from if he wants to get up close and personal. A massive second jump, a surprisingly long-ranged tether, a PK Thunder that can't be eaten like Ness's can, a PKT2 that can make it to the ledge while you're in the magnification bubble, Zap Jumping, and Magnet Pulling give Lucas recovery options out the wazoo, and the aforementioned spikes make intercepting him a risky proposition. Amazing.


SPACING
Extreme long distance - The only real option at this range is PK Freeze, but it won't hit anyone who's half alert and shields it. While there's not much to do on the offense, a Lucas who just sits here doing nothing can respond to any projectile with either PSI Magnet or fsmash, forcing opponents to approach. Comfortable.

Long distance - This is approximately the range of PK Fire, which means it's the optimal distance to use it in pretty much any situation that would call for it. PK Freeze, PK Thunder, and their associated mindgames work best near the longer end of this range, but become less effective as this gives way to Medium Range. Comfortable.

Medium distance - PK Fire becomes much less attractive due to the startup lag, but this is the perfect distance to use Lucas's aerials. His smashes also extend into this range, making this a good range for KOing without leaving yourself totally vulnerable. With the exception of his specials, most of Lucas's options lie here. Comfortable.

Short distance - In general, Lucas doesn't like opponents that violate his personal space. On the other hand, when he's prepared for them, he's more than willing to land a few short range blows. On the offensive, Lucas likes being here so he can pile on damage from aerials and tilts. When playing defense...not so much. Bearable


KILLING
Killing power - All of Lucas's smashes hit like a truck, but they all have startup lag to deal with. Usmash is the strongest, but will almost never hit unless your opponent is in fallspecial or something similarly vulnerable. Fsmash and dsmash have more speed to them, but neither one is fast enough to throw out on a whim. Dthrow, fair, ftilt, and PSI Magnet also have KO potential at medium to high percentages, but they all have their own issues that makes the KO hard to land. The potential is definitely there, but KOs require a bit of setup. Above Average.

Gimping potential - Once again, usmash makes an appearance, but also once again, it will almost never hit. Otherwise, Lucas's gimp kills will come from bair spikes and PK Thunder harassment, although PK Freeze and PK Fire have their uses in stopping opponents from coming back to the stage. In particular, PK Thunder's high degree of maneuverability makes intercepting all but the best recoveries fairly easy. It's also possible to chain fairs together, WOP-style. Amazing, mostly because of PK Thunder.


SURVIVABILITY
Recovery - Lucas's recovery, contrary to what some people may think, is not easily gimpable. The second jump and PKT2 are about the only similarities Lucas's recovery has with Ness's. Not only does his PK Thunder go through anyone trying to steal the bolt, his PKT2 has more range than Ness's and doesn't slow down when it hits. Furthermore, Lucas has a tether recovery with surprising reach when one considers its range when used onstage. If this wasn't enough, Lucas has 2 ATs at his disposal that he can use separately or combined to further aid his recovery: Zap Jump and Magnet Pull. Even if Lucas is in a situation where several of these options are missing, he has two spikes that he can use to turn around an edgeguarding attempt. Easy.

Staying Power - Also contrary to popular belief, Lucas is more of a light middleweight than a true lightweight, although he still gets knocked around fairly easily. Lucas is unique in that he is one of two characters (the other one being Ness) that can restore his health and go from being KOable to surviving another smash, although this is not an option against more characters than not. His reflective fsmash also discourages attempts to pick him off from a distance, forcing close-range combat for most KOs. While Lucas specializes in defensive play and is certainly capable of holding players off, he is light enough to make that one lucky smash enough to KO him. Intermediate.

Edited Extreme Long Range, Short Range, Ground Zoning, Aerial Zoning, Long Range, Medium Range
Added Survivability

 

[Irsic]

ROBs lazer is extremely predictable, but I guess we're not doing match ups here. D:

 

[Natch]

Well, I believe that Paranoid Drone hit the nail on the head more or less. I'd personally put Short Distance as Bearable, considering Lucas is pretty good at close range with fast Tilts, Jabs, a Tether Grab, powerful Smashes, SH'd Nairs->Whatever Combos that absolutely **** shields and shield poke through almost 100% of the time, and we're good. I say Bearable here because all of these options-barring SH'd Nair chains-always end with you knocking the opponent farther away. You can pursue them and follow up, yes, but his approaches only work if you find a chink in the defense of your opponent. Outside of his SH Nair, none of his approach options have that ability to "punch through" an opponent's defense. And SH Nair, while good for combos and shield poking, has horrible priority.

Basically, Lucas does this:

-Start at medium distance
-SH Nair into short distance
-Insert combo(s) here
-End at medium distance

For the most part, Lucas only goes close to an opponent to get some hits in, then knock them away before they can react. If an opponent approaches you and somehow gets past your PK Fires, the same combo options out of Nair-exlcuding Utilt-are now used to send the opponent away. These options are pretty much his Jab and Ftilt, but hey, they work. Lucas doesn't like being up close unless he wants to be up close, but he still has the tools to get you out of his face. Even approaching via walk-Ftilt-walk-Ftilt-walk-Ftilt only serves as a "get out of my face" tool.

So yeah, make it Bearable. I'd go for comfortable, but this is also assuming situations where the opponent is the one approaching.

Lucas is comfortable at short distance, but only long enough for him to get you out of his face. I find that, as Lucas, I'm very comfortable at short distances, but when I think about an opponent right in my face, I realize I'd rather have them at medium distance where I can approach on my terms. And Lucas has the tools needed to do just that.


Also, I still think his ground game is above average. Check the link to Dragz' "Spacing, Zoning, Killing" thread and look for all of my posts.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

i still feel as though long distance is just bearable, only because the only viable move here is pk fire, a slow moving projectile. it is pretty easy to see from this distance and act accordingly. With long distance being approximately half the length of FD, there isn't really much i can see him doing. if someone could throw out some things from this distance to help me see what i'm missing then, i may change my mind. just pk fire isn't enough to me

 

[Natch]

i still feel as though long distance is just bearable, only because the only viable move here is pk fire, a slow moving projectile. it is pretty easy to see from this distance and act accordingly. With long distance being approximately half the length of FD, there isn't really much i can see him doing. if someone could throw out some things from this distance to help me see what i'm missing then, i may change my mind. just pk fire isn't enough to me

Pfft. PK Fire is enough. It's an awesome spacing tool, and Lucas is capable of weaving inside Long Distance with tons of PK Fire mind games. Lucas is comfortable keeping you at arms' length where he has options on them, and they have none on him. Also, since you're using PK Fire to space them, you're also able to approach or retreat at your leasuire. This means Lucas is comfortable at Long Range. He's fine being here all day if he has to.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

*rage*

Stupid school network decides to screw up just as I hit "post." <_<

So, to summarize:

Natch - I agree with your ground game statement, would like more than one person's input on close range. I'll edit my previous post later when I'm less lazy.

Pink Fresh - The long end of long range (lol) is where baiting opponents with PK Freeze and PK Thunder becomes most effective, I've found.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Pink Fresh - The long end of long range (lol) is where baiting opponents with PK Freeze and PK Thunder becomes most effective, I've found.

wait, but wouldn't that be extreme long distance?

 

[smasher?o.0]

i agree with natch
cept lucas's aerials are better than ground (a attacks)

 

[Natch]

i agree with natch
cept lucas's aerials are better than ground (a attacks)

No, they are not. They are good, and can be abused because of their quickness and minor disjointed hitboxes, but Lucas has a better ground game OVERALL. I love using Lucas' aerials, but they're only really for "get out of my face" and "combo into a ground move". In a head-to-head approach when you trade blows, Lucas will lose most of the time.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Pfft. PK Fire is enough. It's an awesome spacing tool, and Lucas is capable of weaving inside Long Distance with tons of PK Fire mind games. Lucas is comfortable keeping you at arms' length where he has options on them, and they have none on him. Also, since you're using PK Fire to space them, you're also able to approach or retreat at your leasuire. This means Lucas is comfortable at Long Range. He's fine being here all day if he has to.

hmm... this might be a stretch but let's look at it this way
comfortable- more than enough to be in that zone
bearable- enough to not do badly
and
uncomfortable- just doesn't have enough to work with

now, when you say "PK fire is enough", i automatically think it's enough to do fine, but not enough to do well/exceptionally well. enough seems to be a "bear minimum" (pun inteded) of passing.

you won't win a match dependent on PK fire at long distance. meaning it's not good enough to build up damage. yes, it is good for spacing and has its occasional uses, but PK fire is not this godlike move that allows him to sit comfortably in the long distance range.

another thought, aren't the distances we find to be whatever rating, dependent on B-sticking or not?

 

[Natch]

I can think of no characters that can win a match doing NOTHING BUT staying at long distance. I can however think of characters that are comfortable just sitting there building up damage, then getting in that kill move to finish the job.

A combonation of PK Fire, Psi Magnet, PK Freeze, PK Thunder, and Fsmash(Reflector) give Lucas the defensive and offensive tools he needs to stay in this zone building up damage. Lucas does not like to be approached unless he wants you to. I included the slower PK moves because they still exist, and play some role in Lucas' ability to attack and defend at Long Distance.

Being Comfortable at Long Distance=/=Killing at Long Distance. Freakin' MK is listed as Comfortable at that range, and he has no projectiles to speak of. He does, however, have the tools to approach from Long Distance effectively. He's fine staying there, but he's not going to be doing anything.

And yes, they are dependent on B-Sticking, but this analysis looks at the maximum potential of each character. That is, the player is utilizing all ATs and moves of the character in an effective manner. It's basic logic that a bad player will make any character bad, even MK. This does not mean that MK is going to get low ratings. It is assumed the MK is using all of his options.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

wait, but wouldn't that be extreme long distance?

No. Extreme long distance was defined as the full length of Final Destination (iirc, too lazy to check atm), while long distance was listed as about half the stage. What I mean by "the longer end of long range" is that distance -- halfway across FD, or long distance's "maximum" range.

Sorry for any confusion.

EDIT: Just came up with a spiffers diagram thingamajig because I question my coherency at the moment.

Final Destination:
v Lucas is here
_______________________________________________
|-^1-^2------------------------^3------------------------------^4|

Between Lucas and 1 is short range, between 1 and 2 is medium range, between 2 and 3 is long range, and between 3 and 4 is extremely long range. I was referring to the area around 3.

 

[Natch]

No. Extreme long distance was defined as the full length of Final Destination (iirc, too lazy to check atm), while long distance was listed as about half the stage. What I mean by "the longer end of long range" is that distance -- halfway across FD, or long distance's "maximum" range.

Sorry for any confusion.

EDIT: Just came up with a spiffers diagram thingamajig because I question my coherency at the moment.

Final Destination:
v Lucas is here
_______________________________________________
|-^1-^2------------------------^3------------------------------^4|

Between Lucas and 1 is short range, between 1 and 2 is medium range, between 2 and 3 is long range, and between 3 and 4 is extremely long range. I was referring to the area around 3.

FD isn't that big for Medium distance to be so close to Lucas. Put Medium Distance halfway between Short and Long, and you're good. Basically, the scale is off. It makes FD seem bigger than it actually is.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Meh, I whipped it up in about 30 seconds. I figured it was good enough for government work. <_<

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

I can think of no characters that can win a match doing NOTHING BUT staying at long distance. I can however think of characters that are comfortable just sitting there building up damage, then getting in that kill move to finish the job.

that isn't what i meant. you took it too literally and not hypothetically. sorry for the misunderstanding. what i meant was that one move, pk fire, isn't going to be all the great.

A combonation of PK Fire, Psi Magnet, PK Freeze, PK Thunder, and Fsmash(Reflector) give Lucas the defensive and offensive tools he needs to stay in this zone building up damage. Lucas does not like to be approached unless he wants you to. I included the slower PK moves because they still exist, and play some role in Lucas' ability to attack and defend at Long Distance.

the diagram helped me to visualize the distances better. now, that combined with what what paranoidrone said about the long end of long distance, changed my mind to to comfortable, with the addition of those moves you named. when you were saying "pk fire is enough", i just didn't see how it was so great that he could stay there, but with multiple options i have a better understanding. i think... only problem here is if the closer end is just bearable (still is in my mind) and the farther part is comfortable (we all agree), which one do you pick?

Being Comfortable at Long Distance=/=Killing at Long Distance. Freakin' MK is listed as Comfortable at that range, and he has no projectiles to speak of. He does, however, have the tools to approach from Long Distance effectively. He's fine staying there, but he's not going to be doing anything.

haha that was also a statement of misconception. just i was just saying, he won't stay at long distance for long and he would want to move in to a sort of balance of medium/long distance. Lucas is comfortable at extreme long distance, the long end of long distance and all areas of medium from close to end. reason being that the close end of long distance leaves too many punishable moves and the only true option being bait approach with PK fire or approach yourself. As someone said before about lucas or Rob, can't remember at the moment, at short distance his moves are to put him at a distance where he would be more comfortable. i think pk fire is a move that, at the close psrt of long distance, is a move that puts Lucas in a more comfortable distance.

And yes, they are dependent on B-Sticking, but this analysis looks at the maximum potential of each character. That is, the player is utilizing all ATs and moves of the character in an effective manner. It's basic logic that a bad player will make any character bad, even MK. This does not mean that MK is going to get low ratings. It is assumed the MK is using all of his options.

this makes an awkard case. if you B-stick even being short distance is comfortable because the addition of a wavebounced PK fire moves you back so much. since the move is so great for spacing and building up damage, along with the jab, ftilt and other quick moves he would be comfortable, right?
or is it that it's still bearable because he isn't spending most of his time there, which is the case for the close end of long distance. this B-sticking would also add a PK that lands you in the Extreme long distance spacing which we all agree is comfortable, so would that add on to what he already has in long distance?
then again say you don't B-stick, that takes away wavebounce and short distance loses pk fire. long distance loses the pk fire the puts you into extreme long distance and who's to consider the maximum potential if there is no lucas to watch/performs really well in big tournaments consistently? this would bring us back ot the whole B-stick or not B-stick discussion.


i don't see why is this so hard for me to understand

 

[Natch]

The whole Bstick-No Bstick argument is not involved here. This little rating system has some "magic" rules that automatically assume the Lucas is able to use all the techniques available to him. As well, I've heard it is possible-though difficult-to Wavebounce without using the Bstick.

Anyways, it's fine this is confusing for you. Lucas is a very complicated character, really. Personally, I feel Lucas is comfortable close range, but his main issue is that he can out prioritized by guys such as Metaknight, Marth, DDD, Game and Watch, ROB, etc. He's good at close range, but he's not going to be able to pull off a super aggressive head-to-head short distance brawl. He's more designed to weave in and out of Short Range, taking potshots. He relies heavily on his opponent dropping their guard at close range. That's why I list it as Bearable. He's Comfortable in some situations, and Uncomfortable in others. That averages out to Bearable.

I personally would put Extreme Long Distance as Comfortable, but we have to make a comparison: What about guys like Link, Toon Link, Zelda, Pit, ROB, Samus, etc. Those guys have moves that can actually hit at Extreme Long Distance. Lucas has PK Freeze and PK Thunder, both fairly sluggish. However, his Fsmash Reflector and Magnet Projectile Absorb attack offer him defensive measure. This means Extreme Long Distance is Comfortable to Bearable. Now, seeing as "Comfortable" means characters like I listed above, Lucas would be Bearable. He's got options, but not nearly as many as the above characters do.

The main thing here is that Lucas is Low Tier for a reason-he has many places where he falls short. However, the reason why he feels like he's good is because he's a little solid across the board, with a few places where he really shines. Those places happen to be his Grab Game*, Mid-range Spacing abilities, and his godly Recovery Game. Basically, he's a character with mostly below average abilities, but the good things he does have work well to make those below average abilities a little more abusable.

*Check this topic for Grab details. It has a huge amount of Data, so you'll have to fish through the find the Lucas stuff, but it's very handy to know: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196207

I hope this helps. You get this stuff well enough, so don't be saddended if it seems way out of your reach. As long as you can understand some of what I'm saying, you're good. If you're confused about some of the little terms I'm using-Spacing, for instance-feel free to ask me. I'll be happy to help.

 

[Levitas]

lucas is on par with pit at extreme long range. He has defensive measures against all projectiles, and projectiles that can go around obstacles and are reasonably fast in terms of speed. By doing nothing against characters that have projectiles that can hit him, he can force them to approach by simply having the fsmash and magnet. He forces non-projectilists to approach using his projectiles.

Lucas is FAR better than metaknight at an extreme long range, and there's nothing that can make this fact untrue.

As far as different ranges are concerned, PK fire is a tricky one. retreating fires can use the same kind of boost as bsticking, but is used for shorter ranges. bsticking is used to actually extend the pk fire's range. This is because the forward movement in the first part of the jump is the factor extending the range. A normal short-hopped pk fire wouldn't go as far, and you wouldn't end up so far back.

So a statement like "bsticking makes pk fire useful at short range" is completely wrong. The truth is that it makes it usable at a longer range.

Also note that bsticking without the bstick is definately feasible, and if someone decides to use lucas and wants to do this, they will have no trouble doing so.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

lucas is on par with pit at extreme long range. He has defensive measures against all projectiles, and projectiles that can go around obstacles and are reasonably fast in terms of speed. By doing nothing against characters that have projectiles that can hit him, he can force them to approach by simply having the fsmash and magnet. He forces non-projectilists to approach using his projectiles.

Lucas is FAR better than metaknight at an extreme long range, and there's nothing that can make this fact untrue.

As far as different ranges are concerned, PK fire is a tricky one. retreating fires can use the same kind of boost as bsticking, but is used for shorter ranges. bsticking is used to actually extend the pk fire's range. This is because the forward movement in the first part of the jump is the factor extending the range. A normal short-hopped pk fire wouldn't go as far, and you wouldn't end up so far back.

So a statement like "bsticking makes pk fire useful at short range" is completely wrong. The truth is that it makes it usable at a longer range.

Also note that bsticking without the bstick is definately feasible, and if someone decides to use lucas and wants to do this, they will have no trouble doing so.

yes, i think everyone agrees that lucas is comfortable at extreme long distance.

the problem here is i tend to disagree with long distance. i seem to disagree with lucas being comfortable at long distance while everyone is trying to convince me it is comfortable.

what i'm trying to do is to get everyone to come to a general consensus about what they think each zone rating is, and i'm hindering that. with only three people really discussing this distance it is fairly difficult to tell what it actually what, since we don't have any outstanding lucas players to feed off. if you read the thread about who the best lucas players are, i was one of the names mentioned. Oddly enough only like 1 person that posts here consistently named me, and everyone else was like wtf is that? I feel as though long distance is a weird zone to discuss for lucas, because he does better in the zone's immediately in front of and back of him. i dont think alot of people sit in long range with him and move up or back depending on the opponent because those zones are generally better for him than long distance. I don't spend enough time there to give a sufficient rating, so my arguement is mostly speculation.

The whole B-sticking thing is something i just wondered about and thanks for clearing that up for me. i didn't mean pk fire was useful at close range, i meant it was now more usable due to the amount you get pushed back. that still doesn't make the move useful at close range. Natch the whole extreme long distance thing isn't necessarily true. the only chars on the game that is capable of camping lucas are TL, Link, and maybe Samus (missles and Zair) everyuone else uses energy projectiles and are absorbable making Lucas perfectly fine at extreme long distance

Random: This is a democracy and it's a majority rules thing and it seems the majority are for lucas being comfortable at every range except close. is that correct?

 

[Natch]

Yeah, we're saying pretty much. Extreme Long, Long, and Medium are Comfortable. Short Range is bearable.

Also, ROB(Somewhat) and Snake can camp Lucas as well.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

eh, Rob not so much and some odd way i managed to forget about snake for that moment lol
i think i see where the long distance being comfortable comes from. Though there isn't much he can do offensively, it's not much others can do to him if he's being defensive.

is it something like that?

 

[themrskills]

Nothing that Rob does at long range is really effective against lucas. Rob's laser can be absorbed by the magnet, and the gyro can be batted(fsmash) on the ground while it's spinning thus making it lucas's. Then it can be used against Rob. As for snake, the Nikita can be batted, but the 'nades can be a real pain.

 

[Trozz]

Sometimes the laser comes out too fast and you're better off just perfect shielding it.

Sometimes the gyro comes at you when you're not in a position to use the stick and you have to shield/dodge it.

It's all down to how well you can predict them.

I can also reverse your first sentence and it's true: Nothing that Lucas does at long range is really effective against Rob (unless you think you're playing on a weird stage like poke stadium and you can safely use thunder).

 

[Levitas]

Wrong, Trozz. The correct way to think about lucas at long range against rob isn't "nothing lucas does at long range is really effective against rob", it's "lucas doing nothing at long range against rob is really effective"

Lucas doing nothing can flawlessly react to either of rob's long range options, and hopefully force an approach.

 

[GotenOnNimbus]

I'm inclined to agree...ROB long range is fairly easy to predict (At least to me...). Head moves, PSI magnet's immediately out. Gyro at long range bounces, so just position yourself where it stops and stick it back.

 

[soccerdude7200]

Nair can stage spike.
It surprised me when it happened.
I was just trying to rack up some damage and then i stage spiked my opponent

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

he added two new sections Recovery and staying power, but i think they were both represented pretty accurately so i don't know if it needs much discussion

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I posted there with the opinion that Lucas's recovery should be Easy. Zap Jump, Magnet Pull, a tether, PKT2, and two spikes are enough to all but ensure Lucas's safe return to the stage imo.

I also finally got around to editing Extreme Long Range and Short Range in my wall-o-text up there based on the discussion here.

 

[Natch]

Hey Drone, the main thread has been updated to include survivability and stuff, could you go write up an analysis of that over here so we can start discussing that as well?