I am wondering, as a Christian myself, what the general consensus is on the ten commandments here on this website? I personally do not put much emphasis on them since the term is only used once in the Bible (or as my churches version calls them: the Ten Words), and Jesus himself couldn't remember all of them, however I am baffled at how little people actually know of the list and the history behind it (as told in the Bible, I mean). So, what do you guys think of them?
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How do you people view the 10 Commandments?
- Thread starter forboxgux
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It is preferred if you only use facts in the debate hall. While there is nothing wrong with referencing the 10 commandments in your posts it is generally discouraged speaking of them as if they are fact. You have to understand that not everyone on here is a Christian and do not have the same beliefs as you.
gringo66
Smash Journeyman
well caturdayz, just becuase its not fact doesnt mean that they shouldnt be discussed here on the boards. for example, look at the "why should anyone believe in god thread." anyways, i look at the ten commandments as something that many of us catholics and christians should try to follow. I used to know all of them... not anymore though. i guess i know some of the important ones. such as thou shall not kill and such. so i basically try and follow the commandments and try to be a better catholic and as well as a better person.
gringo66
Smash Journeyman
just a question for you caturdayz, but why do you not see the 10 commandments s facts? also, in your last post, it seemed implied that it shouldnt be discussed.
Gringo, I am agnostic and as the 10 commandments are rules for Christians I do not feel obligated to follow them, as a note the 10 commandments for the most part are morally correct and all though I am not swayed by the commandments I follow them unwittingly for the most part anyhow.
I personally beleive that the Bible is a book of fiction. Now you can take that as you will, but I am not inclined to follow rules from a seemingly nonexistent being.
I personally beleive that the Bible is a book of fiction. Now you can take that as you will, but I am not inclined to follow rules from a seemingly nonexistent being.
gringo66
Smash Journeyman
well thats good that you do follow them. this is not the how can anyone beleive in god thread. but something i would like to say is that many people do not believe in god for many reasons. maybe because the religion of catholicism or christianity is gibberish all together. or maybe because you cant see god, feel god, or touch god. I do not know. but religion for the most part i believe is based on faith. Just because it isnt there it doesnt mean that its not real. arguing on the behalf that god is real is very difficult because it is faith.
... And that is my problem with Religion it requires faith. I can have faith in a lot of things, my friends, my family, et cetera. I however cannot have blind faith, and that is faith without any evidence. I live in a Christian home, both of my parents are Christians and as such I heard the stories and I bought into it for awhile. But I started to realize that as I was getting smarter it started to make less and less sense to me.
Miharu
Smash Hero
I'm certain that most individuals who are not of the Christian faith (or any other monotheistic religion for that matter) do not go out of their way to disprove God.
The problem arises when there are those who attempt to use the Bible/God as factual evidence, when in fact, they are not, due to the lack of any material proof to even confirm their existence.
And no, please don't reference the Bible as a rebuttal to this statement, because you can't use something as evidence to prove its own existence.
Peeze
Smash Master
The 10 commandments were made for jews, not christians.Anyways they are basic rules that most cultures follow anyways.
@forboxguy: Where does the bible say jesus couldn't remeber the 10 commandments?
Why are there so many very different version of the commandments? Way back when I was in a private catholic school I was taught "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife". Which essentially equates to "don't cheat on your wife"
But other churches translate it to just "thou **** not covet"! Well, that's totally different, and not even really that good of advice either. (George Carlin did a funny bit on this if you want to try to YouTube it)
For being "10 basic foundations of morality" they sure do change a lot depending on who you talk to, you know?
But other churches translate it to just "thou **** not covet"! Well, that's totally different, and not even really that good of advice either. (George Carlin did a funny bit on this if you want to try to YouTube it)
For being "10 basic foundations of morality" they sure do change a lot depending on who you talk to, you know?
Peeze
Smash Master
The law was not to covet, then it list things not to covet, i.e. your neighbors wife, his land or his animals. The law never changed, some people make their own version. Then its the ten commandments according to persons name
Matthew 19:18-19
"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'
That's why I believe as Christians we shouldn't put heavy emphasis on the Ten Words, but rather the other Mosiac Law and Jesus's commandments.
So many different translations of the Bible, and the Bible gives three different versions as well.
The ten words don't actually say that though. Here's what they say:
Exodus 20:17
'You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not set your heart on your neighbor's wife, or slave, man or woman, or ox, or donkey, or any of your neighbor's posessions.'
Similar, but not the exact same thing. I'd expect Catholics to distort that...
That's what the Bible actually says, don't convet.
The Ten Words, as I've learned them:
1:
Exodus 20:1-3, 23:13, 22:20
Then Yahweh spoke all these words. He said, 'I am Yahweh your God. You must never have any other gods before me. Do not mention the name of any other god -- let none ever be heard from your lips. Anyone who sacrifices to other gods must be destroyed.
2:
Exodus 20:4
You must never make yourself a carved image or any drawing of anything in the heavens above, or on earth beneath, or in the waters below the earth.
3:
Exodus 20:7
You must not misuse the name of Yahweh your God, for Yahweh will destroy anyone who misuses his name.
4:
Exodus 20:8, 31:15
Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. You must not do work that day, neither your son nor your daughter, nor your slaves, men or women, nor your animals. Anyone who dares to works on the Sabbath day must be put to death.
5:
Exodus 20:12, 21:15,17
Honor your father and your mother. Anyone who strikes their father or mother will be put to death. Anyone who curses their father or mother will be put to death.
6:
Exodus 20:13, 21:12
You must not murder. Anyone who attacks a man and kills him must be put to death.
7:
Exodus 20:14, Leviticus 20:10
You must not commit adultery. If a man commits adultery with another man's wife,
both the man and the woman must be put to death.
8:
Exodus 20:15, 21:16
You must not steal. Anyone who steals another man must be put to death.
9:
Exodus 20:16
You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10:
Exodus 20:17
You must not covet your neighbor's house. You must not set your heart on your neighbor's wife, or slave, man or woman, or ox, or donkey, or any of your neighbor's possessions.
So there ya go, more clear for us guys to talk about.
What version are you reading from, forboxgux?
Peeze
Smash Master
CONTEXT!! Simply (mis)quoting a verse without looking at the context is idiotic. This man asked jesus what he must do to get evrlasting life. Jesus said follow the commandments. Then, he asked which ones. Because jesus only said six means he didnt know them all? Whenever he taught he quoted from the law. The bible says he had the custom to enter the synagogues regularly on every sabbath day(which was a command that he "forgot" )and read from the scrolls. He had commited to memory obscure passages from isaiah, and zechariah, why would he not have the 10 commandments memorized?
In fact the same passage but in Luke(10:25-28), says Jesus told the man to tell him what the law was! Obviously Jesus didn't know any of the comandments huh forboxguy?
Or more logically maybe jesus only quoted the ones he said were more important. If only he had said which ones were the most important!! Oh wait he did: loving god and loving neighbor(Matt 34-39) Then in vs 40 he says " On these 2 commandments the whole Law and prophets hang". Condensing the law into those two commands is a summary of the law would you not agree? If you love your neighbor, you wouldn't covet any of his possessions, or steal from him, or murder him, or slander him, and you would honor your parents. And if you loved god you wouldn't use his name in vain, or woship false gods, and remember to keep his sabbath day holy.
Constantine didn't rewrite the Bible, nor was he the first roman Christian. What makes you think he did? Roman Emperor Justinian did help write versions of the Bible as with many Catholic writings, but Constantine didn't.
Yes, because if he knew them all he would have said them all. It's not like he was the smartest man on Earth, why would it be automatic for him to know them all?
Not true at all. He preached many things not found in the Law of Moses.
So?
Jesus in fact misquoted Zechariah, also proving he had little knowledge on the Old Testament text period. What you sight only backs up the true Biblical view that Jesus couldn't remember what was written.
Yes, it's pretty obvious that he couldn't remember them all.
Wouldn't all the ten words be important if they actually value? Yes, but Jesus simply couldn't remember them.
I wouldn't agree with that, that's simply forgetting the rest. And that's fine. people make mistakes. Nothing, not even God himself is perfect.
That last one Jesus later changed his mind on, but the rest are fine.
The Bible never says using his name in vain is bad. It talks of misusing his name.
Peeze
Smash Master
Sure, that wasn't the mans question. His question was which commands should i follow. If he didnt know them he would have said "all of them" It would be automatic because they're were 10. Jesus studied the bible from childhood, and read from it regularly. As a christian you would believe that Jesus was with God before he came to earth. meaning he was present in heaven when God gave the israelites the law, and had a thousand years to memorize it if he so chose.
Correct, let me clarify. many times when teaching jesus would say "is it not written" or "did you not read".
What do you mean so? The best way to commit something to memory is to read and repeat it. reading from the law at least once a week for 30 odd years would implant it into memory How do remember your alphabet?
What are you talking about? No he didnt. Source please so i can knock it down.
I'll take that as sarcasm
When did he say they weren't important? your confusing yourself. Summarizing the law didnt make them unimportant. It summarized it. He said the whole law hangs on those two commands.
Then you my friend do not believe your own bible.
Deuteronomy 32:4: :He is the Rock, His work is perfect"
I'm sorry which "later one" are you talking about?
Isn't using his name in vain a misuse of his name?
And if Jesus could remember them all, he would have said all 10 of the words.
Says who? His childhood is not recorded in the bible except for these statements:
Luke 2:40
The child grew and became strong and filled with wisdom. And God's favor was with him.
Luke 2:41-52
Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. After the Feast was over,
while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."
"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" But they did not understand what he was saying to them.
Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
Proof?
Yes, of course, that doesn't mean he remembers everything. Just because he was with the Israelites when they left Egypt does not mean he remembers every little detail. God can't even remember everything, so why should Jesus?
But he didn't.
Which Jesus did not do.
But the thing is, Jesus did not memorize these things and read up on them. What would be the use of him to do that?
I guess you can try knocking down the Bible, but they are small...anyway, here's the verses:
Zechariah 11:12-13
I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.
Now Jesus misquoting the verse:
Matthew 27:9
Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel,
Take it anyway you want.
Various times, and the Epistles also speak of how unimportant certain commandments in the Old Testament are.
How so? It's generalizing them. Which makes them less important individually.
Which they don't, and he after all did forget some of them.
Actually my Bible says it as this:
He is the rock, his work is everlasting.
Obviously you're using a false version of the Bible. God does not know all or see all
Genesis 3:8, Genesis 4:14, Numbers 22:9, 2 Chronicles 32:31, Jonah 1:3, 10 (just a few verses showing that) and God does after all repent even for his sins (Genesis 6:6, Isaiah 38:1-5, Amos 7:3, 6, just to name a few) so God cannot be perfect, and never will be.
Honor your mother and father. And good he did too. It is a foolish commandment.
No. How would it be?
Peeze
Smash Master
or he could have chosen to answer the mans question, which wasnt "what were the 10 commandments", it was "which commandments should i follow to get life".
Yeah he just knew the answers to religious teachers answers without reading the bible...
Luke 4:16, 17 says he read from it every sabbath day...which came regularly by the way.
Dude omnipotent means all knowing. Christianity teaches an omnipotent god. Matt 10:30 says god knows the very numbers of your hairs? God remembers every detail.
You were there?
You were there?
Because as Jesus himself said(Matt 4 :4): It is written, 'Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every utterancec coming forth through God's mouth."
1. that was not jesus talking.2. he didnt misquote anything, thats exactly what happened. they paid judas 30 pieces of silver, but he killed himself, so they used the money and bought a potters field. thats exactly fulfilling the prophecy guy.
i did
Yeah don't see the Epistles in the Bible, but i do see this in the Bible: "truly i say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest particle of the law to pass away from the law by any means and not all things take place. Whoever, therefore breaks one of these least commandments and teaches mankind to that effect, will be called least in relation to the kingdom of the heavens"-Matt5:18,19
4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect, -New international version
The Rock! His work is perfect-New American Standard Bible
4He is the Rock, His work is perfect- Amplified bible
He is the Rock, His work is perfect;-New king James Version
He is the Rock, His work is perfect;-King James Version
He is the Rock, his works are perfect,-Todays new international version
The Rock, his work is perfect,-english standard version
He is the Rock, his work is perfect-Darby Translation
Yeah definetly using a false version. Or maybe the bible you wrote is incorrect.
Adam was perfect. The bible teaches. Perfection cannot come from imperfection.
How did he not honor his mother and father? While hanging in agonizing pain, he told John to care for his mother.
How wouldnt it be?
To Forbox and his Constantine did not rewrite the bible theory.
It is suggested by the Da Vinci Code that Constantine rewrote the bible to demonize Jews, Justify Slavery et cetera.
Here: http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Apr05/Lee0429.htm
It is suggested by the Da Vinci Code that Constantine rewrote the bible to demonize Jews, Justify Slavery et cetera.
Here: http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Apr05/Lee0429.htm
snex
Smash Master
actually the catholics and protestants use the same text, but divide the commandments up differently. the catholics dropped the one about false idols, so they needed one to fill in, which is why they broke up the coveting one into two.
the protestants reverted to the version that the jews used, which includes the false idols thing. since there is no natural breaking in the original texts, there really is no way to determine which ones are "the" real list - the way you break them up is arbitrary.
the OP mentioned that the phrase "the ten commandments" only appears once in the bible - and he is correct about that. but it appears nowhere near what we consider to be "the" ten commandments. the phrase appears in exodus 34. read it and be shocked about what the *actual* "ten commandments" are.
the protestants reverted to the version that the jews used, which includes the false idols thing. since there is no natural breaking in the original texts, there really is no way to determine which ones are "the" real list - the way you break them up is arbitrary.
the OP mentioned that the phrase "the ten commandments" only appears once in the bible - and he is correct about that. but it appears nowhere near what we consider to be "the" ten commandments. the phrase appears in exodus 34. read it and be shocked about what the *actual* "ten commandments" are.
starcock
Smash Journeyman
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- Starcock
I think they were not meant to be taken in stone as in literally. They are guidelines that cover various situations that you have to interpert yourself since they apply to many situations and just not one specific thing. On the fact issue, if you argue the point of it not being fact then that arguement can be applied to anything really. I could say that the laws in another state are not facts because I do not follow them and in my country you do not have to follow them as well. The ten commandments, reguardless if you believe in God or not, say a person made it up, it could still be considered fact sicne it does exist(maybe in a different orgin) but they are there and people that lived in the area, or followed the religion, use it as law to them as we would use laws set up by our state.
On that note, most of the ten commandments are tied into laws everywhere anyway. Even History books and science ones have had "facts" in them but later on, with more technology, they have discovered things they never seen before and upgraded their facts.
The ten commandments could actually fit in these catergories of facts by definition alone
"1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth. "
Just to say a few. The Ten Commandments are real, they are written down, people do follow them as law and in old times, they were followed by a villiage or community and was punished for not following them.
Shezarr
Smash Rookie
I think the 10 Commandments act as some good moral guidelines, at least 5 - 10. I suppose the first 5 are only really important if your follow an Abrahamic path. From what I understand though, the most important commandments in Christendom are: Matthew 22:36-40
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
38This is the first and greatest commandment.
39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
What historical evidence is there to suggest that Constantine rewrote the bible? The article you presented doesn't seem to give any justification to the idea. Seems more like reckless speculation.
It's true that Constantine ordered new copies of the Bible be created, but they were for new churches that were to be built(in Constantinople I believe) and they were exactly the same as Bible texts that already existed. We have New Testament manuscripts and pieces that predate the Council of Nicaea and they are the same as the versions we know today.
IceEmblem
Smash Journeyman
Well said caturdayz, I dont know what to say except, they're to strict, i mean, if not following them would be punished by the death sentence, then we would probably all be dead.
snex
Smash Master
yes thats true, but until the council of nicea, there was no "bible" as we know it today. the texts in the modern bible were the same, but they were not the only things around. the dead sea scrolls contained tons of books that didnt make the cut into the bible, so in a way, they really did "rewrite" it - by declaring as heresy any of the books that were around but they felt did not meet their theological dogma.shezarr said:
fantanoice
Smash Cadet
I don't exactly "follow" the ten commandments, though I believe it's easier to follow them then break them. They're simply obvious things that you wouldn't expect anybody to do otherwise. They have commandments saying not to steal anything. Well DUH!
Zero Beat
Cognitive Scientist
Yes I've heard of them. They happen to be derivatives from ancient Egypt.
Teebs
Smash Champion
Has anyone mentioned Moses and Mt. Sinai? If not, there you go. That is where they came from. God ==> Moses.
behemoth
Smash Journeyman
You know what, forbuxgux?
I don't know if anyone else caught you saying "I'd expect Catholics to twist that", but I did. I am a practicioner of Zen (oxymoron!) and Buddhism, so I don't feel this is a personal attack. However, I was raised Catholic, baptized and confirmed, and this statement feels pretty hateful.
To be completely honest, since Catholicism came from Judaism, and the other sects of Christianity came from Catholicism, if there is a difference between your church's recitation and the Catholics, your church has "twisted" it.
Again, I don't feel personally attacked by your statement, it just felt hurtful and ignorant. There was no need to put such a barb in there. Especially because, if you are aware of the "translator as traitor" paradigm, then I'm sure you know that what any one of us in America reads as the Bible is likely extremely divergent from the "original work" (as such).
I don't know if anyone else caught you saying "I'd expect Catholics to twist that", but I did. I am a practicioner of Zen (oxymoron!) and Buddhism, so I don't feel this is a personal attack. However, I was raised Catholic, baptized and confirmed, and this statement feels pretty hateful.
To be completely honest, since Catholicism came from Judaism, and the other sects of Christianity came from Catholicism, if there is a difference between your church's recitation and the Catholics, your church has "twisted" it.
Again, I don't feel personally attacked by your statement, it just felt hurtful and ignorant. There was no need to put such a barb in there. Especially because, if you are aware of the "translator as traitor" paradigm, then I'm sure you know that what any one of us in America reads as the Bible is likely extremely divergent from the "original work" (as such).
the ten commandments are the basis of a legal system and to some extent moral behavior.. but the israelites probably borrowed them the egyptians. if God had given it to them, it was because they were too stupid to write down what the egyptians had punished in court.
snex
Smash Master
im not sure why people insist that the ten commandments are the basis for modern legal systems... they completely arent. its just a list of things that you "shalt not" do. it doesnt explain the process of determining guilt, and it doesnt say what happens if you are guilty. all it says is "dont do these ten things."
real legal systems pre-existed the hebrew ones in ancient civilizations like egypt and babylon by a long shot. but the real basis for modern legal systems came from greece, rome, and later europe.
real legal systems pre-existed the hebrew ones in ancient civilizations like egypt and babylon by a long shot. but the real basis for modern legal systems came from greece, rome, and later europe.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
*sigh*
Different Bible versions have different translations of that verse.
Covet being used for both is actually initially a protestant thing, it came from the King James version, a distinctly protestant version.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020%20;&version=9;
Please refrain from unfounded bashing.
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