How do I punish the roll with ZSS?

[Muffin!]

I've noticed it's more difficult to punish a roll with ZSS. With characters like Link or Flacon you just downsmash. With ZSS that doesn't work very well because her downsmash and down tilt only hit in front of ZSS so if you're not perfectly positioned prior to the roll it won't hit. Any advice?
I got owned by a Kirby that just kept rolling. I could have just changed my strategy and been less aggressive, but I insisted on staying on top of him so I could figure out how to punish. Never figured it out, and I just kept getting punished.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

Punishing rolls with Dsmash on any character looks sloppy and stales one of your potential kill moves. If you're looking for something to cover your rear amd front, Utilt works but I'm unsure if the hit box catches Kirby since he's so low to the ground. In any case you want to punish rolls towards you by turning to face where your opponent will finish his roll and punishing accordingly with an Fsmash, tilt, grab, etc.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

If you can read the direction your opponent's gonna roll, SideB can do wonders due to its range and time.

The grab's range and time can also do a great job at punishing rolls and dodges.

 

[kyxsune]

Punishing rolls with Dsmash on any character looks sloppy and stales one of your potential kill moves. If you're looking for something to cover your rear amd front, Utilt works but I'm unsure if the hit box catches Kirby since he's so low to the ground. In any case you want to punish rolls towards you by turning to face where your opponent will finish his roll and punishing accordingly with an Fsmash, tilt, grab, etc.

how does it stale a kill move? I typically use the down smash to trap, which opens up the options of a grab, up B, side smash, or tilt.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Punishing rolls with Dsmash on any character looks sloppy and stales one of your potential kill moves. If you're looking for something to cover your rear amd front, Utilt works but I'm unsure if the hit box catches Kirby since he's so low to the ground. In any case you want to punish rolls towards you by turning to face where your opponent will finish his roll and punishing accordingly with an Fsmash, tilt, grab, etc.

What are you talking about, dSmash is one of the best moves exactly for this.
Every dSmash means huge damage or even a perfect kill setup.

 

[Muffin!]

What are you talking about, dSmash is one of the best moves exactly for this.
Every dSmash means huge damage or even a perfect kill setup.

This is my thinking, which is why dsmash is such a good punish for rolls: it hurts. A good punish does a lot of damage so that the player will think twice before doing what they did again. I've had limited success with side B as someone else suggested, but it just doesn't hurt as much as something like Link's downsmash.

 

[DeLux]

First you must ask yourself, why do I want to punish roll?
Then you must decide if the juice is worth the squeeze.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

First you must ask yourself, why do I want to punish roll?
Then you must decide if the juice is worth the squeeze.

Duuuude, we play a hot girl in a latex suit, make an educated guess why we punish those bad boys.

Spoiler

because they ask for it

 

[Yumewomiteru]

nair is actually pretty good for punishing rolls towards you because it has a huge range and stays out for a while. run away and breverse paralyzer or side b also works, so does pivot grabs. if they roll away from you run to where they will end up and dash attack or dash grab. Dsmash is good if they roll towards you but will still be in front of you afterwards, you could get a hard read and dsmash behind you if they roll behind, but you will get punished if you misread.

 

[RadianB]

I use up tilt to punish rolls behind be, good move.

 

[Duzzzyy]

Duuuude, we play a hot girl in a latex suit, make an educated guess why we punish those bad boys.

Spoiler

because they ask for it

This went into a lovely direction quickly.

 

[Blakexd9]

Pivot ftilt is fun for punishing rolls.

 

[extremechiton]

Roll punish:
Dash attack,
Dsmash
Side b
Pivot grab
Down b kick
I even once did a run up, up b
Run up, up smash

 

[keikashi12]

It pretty much boils down to getting those reads in. You pretty much have to make your opponent do what you want them to do and be reactive enough to react to the situation at hand. For instance I've been having trouble with king dedede with all my chars simply because they throw spines all day roll around for the whole match and either pound me off shield grab or pound me when I get a good read in but still miss the attack. I'm working on punishing the roll dodge spammer but just keep working at it.

 

[extremechiton]

It pretty much boils down to getting those reads in. You pretty much have to make your opponent do what you want them to do and be reactive enough to react to the situation at hand. For instance I've been having trouble with king dedede with all my chars simply because they throw spines all day roll around for the whole match and either pound me off shield grab or pound me when I get a good read in but still miss the attack. I'm working on punishing the roll dodge spammer but just keep working at it.

For the gordos, you can fair, zair, nair, or side b them pretty easily

 

[keikashi12]

Thanks lol I'll give it a shot. Sure is annoying fighting dedede but I will triumph over the fat overgrown king :/

For the gordos, you can fair, zair, nair, or side b them pretty easily

For the gordos, you can fair, zair, nair, or side b them pretty easily

 

[shaneknows]

I play against a ness regularly and have basically given up roll battles. Like DeLux said most times it just isn't worth the squeeze. Especially when it will lead to death against a back throw by ness.

I usually try short hop Nair/spot dodge jab combo if I read a throw against other opponents if I feel I can win.

 

[Fidyyuan]

I like to run past them when they roll and neutral b-reverse. The paralyzer should travel enough to hit them in between rolls. Most times, you'll be right next to them too so you can d.smash + upb or whatever you like.

 

[ninrok]

Roll punish:
Dash attack,
Dsmash
Side b
Pivot grab
Down b kick
I even once did a run up, up b
Run up, up smash

I'm going to have to give a lot of this a try. Previously I tried using dtilt to catch rolls and that didn't work out too well for me lol.

More recently I've been using Side B, been a bit more consistent. Granted, this is online; when I play locally, I rarely run into a situation where I'm getting rolled on that much.

I think I've tried run up, up b literally once. I was... let's just say I was not rewarded for my "read" lol.

 

[extremechiton]

I'm going to have to give a lot of this a try. Previously I tried using dtilt to catch rolls and that didn't work out too well for me lol.

More recently I've been using Side B, been a bit more consistent. Granted, this is online; when I play locally, I rarely run into a situation where I'm getting rolled on that much.

I think I've tried run up, up b literally once. I was... let's just say I was not rewarded for my "read" lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Els_K2LsykU
here is the video where i punished roll with up b. i find that for glory players have a habit of rolling backwards after doing a laggy move.

maybe you can pick up on that next time. however for roll spam, just stick to what works best.

 

[ninrok]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Els_K2LsykU
here is the video where i punished roll with up b. i find that for glory players have a habit of rolling backwards after doing a laggy move.

maybe you can pick up on that next time. however for roll spam, just stick to what works best.

Ah I see, definitely makes sense and running that down was awesome. :-)

Indeed, I'm going to try not to stress roll-spammers too hard and work on my roll punishing in general.

Definitely more about reading habits with ZSS it seems - still used to playing ROB in those situations, where I can kinda just d-smash with ROB to cover most Grounded escape options lol.

 

[Muffin!]

I've been working a lot on punishing defensive players, and I've honestly just come to the conclusion that this is ZSS's one glaring weakness. None of the moves she has in her tool kit are great for punishing defense, the ones that are decent can be easily punished if you miss, she's not very good at counter camping, her aerial approaches are difficult to space and easy to shield grab, and for the love of god you better not miss a read if you're going for a grab.
ZSS requires a lot of precision to play anyways, but if you're playing a defensive player it can be really difficult and if you're playing online, it's just an uphill battle.

I've been playing with Sheik when I encounter defensive players and it is just so much easier. Her tool kit against campers has everything ZSS has and more. I don't think she handle projectiles as well, but she can counter camp better, punish rolls better, is much more difficult to shield grab, has a safer grab, and is difficult to punish.

God, tell me it's me and not ZSS. I feel like a good ZSS can dominate the neutral better than sheik in a fast paced match, and she is still my favorite character to play, but when someone starts forcing a slow match Sheik just feels so much more capable. I hate that, I don't want to have to switch characters.

 

[DeLux]

Sheik might have the best neutral tools in the game excluding Diddy with Banana in hand lol

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I've been working a lot on punishing defensive players, and I've honestly just come to the conclusion that this is ZSS's one glaring weakness. None of the moves she has in her tool kit are great for punishing defense, the ones that are decent can be easily punished if you miss, she's not very good at counter camping, her aerial approaches are difficult to space and easy to shield grab, and for the love of god you better not miss a read if you're going for a grab.
ZSS requires a lot of precision to play anyways, but if you're playing a defensive player it can be really difficult and if you're playing online, it's just an uphill battle.

I've been playing with Sheik when I encounter defensive players and it is just so much easier. Her tool kit against campers has everything ZSS has and more. I don't think she handle projectiles as well, but she can counter camp better, punish rolls better, is much more difficult to shield grab, has a safer grab, and is difficult to punish.

God, tell me it's me and not ZSS. I feel like a good ZSS can dominate the neutral better than sheik in a fast paced match, and she is still my favorite character to play, but when someone starts forcing a slow match Sheik just feels so much more capable. I hate that, I don't want to have to switch characters.

Lolno. Sheik >>>>>>>>>>>> ZSS in neutral.
But ZSS kills far earlier, has better combos and the hardest punishes in the game.
Also if you switch characters from a character you like just because it isn't the best you're pretty tryhard.
Stop doing this ****. Sorry to say but you're most likely not good enough to even care. Only top level players are and even most of them don't give a damn as long as the character isn't downright crap.

 

[DeLux]

She doesn't have better combos imo

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

She doesn't have better combos imo

She has 3 kill combos that all kill far below 100 and a ~45% clutch combo that kills if the enemy doesn't DI.
She also has like 4 different ways to set combos up.

 

[David Viran]

She has 3 kill combos that all kill far below 100 and a ~45% clutch combo that kills if the enemy doesn't DI.
She also has like 4 different ways to set combos up.

On halberd that clutch combo doesn't care about good DI if executed correctly and delfino.

 

[Muffin!]

Lolno. Sheik >>>>>>>>>>>> ZSS in neutral.
But ZSS kills far earlier, has better combos and the hardest punishes in the game.
Also if you switch characters from a character you like just because it isn't the best you're pretty tryhard.
Stop doing this ****. Sorry to say but you're most likely not good enough to even care. Only top level players are and even most of them don't give a damn as long as the character isn't downright crap.

Damn dude, what is your problem? What's with the hostility? You don't have to be a top professional to hate losing. There's nothing wrong with having a secondary character that deals with a certain play style better. **** dude, most people do have a secondary character. I mention that I'm picking one up for this purpose and now you're telling me I don't shouldn't because I don't have a right to care about the game. lol wut? I hate playing campy players, and I have more fun playing against them with a character that's better equipped to dispose of them than ZSS. Tell me what's wrong with that?

Also lol at "the hardest punishes in the game." I love ZSS, but you've got to be ****ting me with that one.

 

[Muffin!]

Sheik might have the best neutral tools in the game excluding Diddy with Banana in hand lol

It really comes down to the play style of the opponent IMO. If they are defensive I give sheik the edge by a mile. If they are aggro, I feel like the paralyzer controls the game and sets up combos in a way that sheik never can.

 

[David Viran]

Damn dude, what is your problem? What's with the hostility? You don't have to be a top professional to hate losing. There's nothing wrong with having a secondary character that deals with a certain play style better. **** dude, most people do have a secondary character. I mention that I'm picking one up for this purpose and now you're telling me I don't shouldn't because I don't have a right to care about the game. lol wut? I hate playing campy players, and I have more fun playing against them with a character that's better equipped to dispose of them than ZSS. Tell me what's wrong with that?

Also lol at "the hardest punishes in the game." I love ZSS, but you've got to be ****ting me with that one.

Ok zss definitely has one of the if not the best advantage States in the game. Her mobility, range, damage output, combo potential, kill power, and kill set ups are all very good.

Also sheik definitely has the better overall neutral because she has a real grab. ZSS wants to have a real grab to but can't unfortunately.

 

[Muffin!]

Ok zss definitely has one of the if not the best advantage States in the game. Her mobility, range, damage output, combo potential, kill power, and kill set ups are all very good.

Also sheik definitely has the better overall neutral because she has a real grab. ZSS wants to have a real grab to but can't unfortunately.

Definitely aggree with you on the advantage state, which is part of why I love ZSS. But I think advantage state is different than punish.

You can probably persuade me that shiek has the better overall neutral, but I still think it depends a lot on the matchup. I'd rather have ZSS if I'm facing lots of projectiles, or someone with large hurtboxes.

 

[David Viran]

Definitely aggree with you on the advantage state, which is part of why I love ZSS. But I think advantage state is different than punish.

You can probably persuade me that shiek has the better overall neutral, but I still think it depends a lot on the matchup. I'd rather have ZSS if I'm facing lots of projectiles, or someone with large hurtboxes.

One hit confirm could be your stock. You hit nair near the ledge down b and your stock is gone at like 40%.Get a grab at 30% or so uair uair up b your stock is gone especially with rage or on halberd or certain parts of delfino. If you don't kill them that's 34% damage. Most of zss's hit confirms put you straight into the disadvantage.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Damn dude, what is your problem? What's with the hostility? You don't have to be a top professional to hate losing. There's nothing wrong with having a secondary character that deals with a certain play style better. **** dude, most people do have a secondary character. I mention that I'm picking one up for this purpose and now you're telling me I don't shouldn't because I don't have a right to care about the game. lol wut? I hate playing campy players, and I have more fun playing against them with a character that's better equipped to dispose of them than ZSS. Tell me what's wrong with that?

Also lol at "the hardest punishes in the game." I love ZSS, but you've got to be ****ting me with that one.

ZSS is fine against campers. Any soft read means a dSpecial kick in their face. And no I'm not kidding. One grab at 35 to 45 is a guaranteed combo setup which kills if you're not directly in the middle of the stage. My average FG match takes 1:30 for a reason.

On halberd that clutch combo doesn't care about good DI if executed correctly and delfino.

I meant bThrow > dSpecial kick. I am pretty sure you can always DI this.
Which one did you mean?

 

[DeLux]

Sheik has better neutral than ZSS by virtue of ZSS having a grab that hits at frame 16 on the earliest lol
She also has two Fsmashes and no Dsmash

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Sheik has better neutral than ZSS by virtue of ZSS having a grab that hits at frame 16 on the earliest lol
She also has two Fsmashes and no Dsmash

more like one fSmash, no dSmash and two stuns.
The grab is what makes her so good and so bad at the same time. I love it.

 

[extremechiton]

I have trouble against campers, everytime i get in close, theu roll away, and i usually camt predict which way theyll roll, and with people dsmashing out of roll as a habit, it makes it difficult to follow up on a read.

 

[David Viran]

ZSS is fine against campers. Any soft read means a dSpecial kick in their face. And no I'm not kidding. One grab at 35 to 45 is a guaranteed combo setup which kills if you're not directly in the middle of the stage. My average FG match takes 1:30 for a reason.


I meant bThrow > dSpecial kick. I am pretty sure you can always DI this.
Which one did you mean?

I was talking about uair uair up b because that that's the combo I see clutch matches. Also dsmash has a hitbox behind her it's just small.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I have trouble against campers, everytime i get in close, theu roll away, and i usually camt predict which way theyll roll, and with people dsmashing out of roll as a habit, it makes it difficult to follow up on a read.

Short hop a lot, try to corner them and punish when they try to roll behind you. When they are standing on the ledge they only have one way to roll. Also campers tend to be pretty predictable. Try to soft read dSpecial kick them as often as possible, but only when they are still in an attack animation. Link's arrow is a good example where it's pretty easy to do.

I was talking about uair uair up b because that that's the combo I see clutch matches. Also dsmash has a hitbox behind her it's just small.

I use that far too often to call it a clutch combo lol
Like every second stock I get is because of this combo.

 

[David Viran]

Short hop a lot, try to corner them and punish when they try to roll behind you. When they are standing on the ledge they only have one way to roll. Also campers tend to be pretty predictable. Try to soft read dSpecial kick them as often as possible, but only when they are still in an attack animation. Link's arrow is a good example where it's pretty easy to do.


I use that far too often to call it a clutch combo lol
Like every second stock I get is because of this combo.

Well I still have yet to see if use b throw down b spike and kill for a game winner.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Well I still have yet to see if use b throw down b spike and kill for a game winner.

I always use this if I'm like 50% behind on the last stock. I have a ~70% success rate with it and got a few dozen wins this way.
It's FG so you can't really take it too seriously but it works.