How do i needle to grab?

[TJK1997]

Because I hear alot of people talk about it and i dont get it.

 

[Tristan_win]

Basically if you still firing your needles as you hit the ground your needle will cancel out your lag which will allow you to do any move.

 

[yomedrath]

@tristan: i dont understand how taht explains needle grab Oo

if you fire your needles up in the air and you hit the enemy, you should be able, if you dash toward them, to grab them right after...
you can see it in basicly any shiek vid, and i seems to be very important, cause everyone tells me to do it more often Oo

 

[Tristan_win]

Yomedrath the key factor is that you still have to firing your needles as you hit the ground so you can run up and grab them

 

[yomedrath]

okay, but doesnt that work kindof automatic, as long as you dont do a double juimp?i
i thought he just didnt know how to do it ...

 

[h1roshi]

how do you not get it???...you just throw needles at your opponent while your in the air and in front of them...when you land the needle animation will be cancelled, and your opponent will be a bit stunned from the neddles, then you just grab them from thestun...peace

-hiroshi

 

[The_Famous_SK]

how is that more useful than nair-L canceling? if they sheild either way you're screwed, and 1 needle does what like 2 damage?

 

[yomedrath]

if you´re talking about needel grab, what you should in this thread, it´s very usefull, because the shieks grab rulz XD

 

[TJK1997]

Thank you guys.

 

[Jihnsius]

Doing it perfectly is very difficult. Even if you manage to learn how to SHFFL needles without transforming, there's still only three to fiveish frames you have to actually get the grab in. If the opponent knows how long the lag from getting hit is, they can easily avoid this.

 

[TJK1997]

Thank you all for advice

 

[darkatma]

Doing it perfectly is very difficult. Even if you manage to learn how to SHFFL needles without transforming, there's still only three to fiveish frames you have to actually get the grab in. If the opponent knows how long the lag from getting hit is, they can easily avoid this.

actually the time you can get the grab in is dependent on how far away from your opponent. So it's not always 3-5 frames, and the grab is never guaranteed. You just haveta know what to follow up with after a needle cancel.

take my sheik for example
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6415229635447051466&hl=en

I use a lot of needle canceling (lots and lots)
sometimes i am able to grab, sometimes peach jabs me out of the grab. It's quite dependent. In peach's second to last stock i start a 9-death combo with a needle cancel to grab. It's very useful.


As for the guy who asked why use this instead of l-canceled nair:
1) Different trajectory. You can fire a needle anywhere diagonally, whereas a falling nair you need to be directly above
2) l-canceled nairs are also much harder to time, especially b/c opponent puts up shield often against you, so lcancel may be messed up. Needles autocancel(4frames of lag) upon landing. And chars with strong usmashes kill sheiks who try to approach with a nair. Needles are disjointed hitboxes, and can be used on platforms (again watch my vid for platform canceled needles)
3) needles were never about tacking on large amounts of damage. 2 damage leads to a 0-death combo often enough through a sucessful grab or follow up..

 

[Jihnsius]

I was referring to when you're directly next to and above the opponent. The highest distance you can possibly be without it cancelling to a ground-thrown needle. Even if you are this close, any character can still sidestep or jab out of you grabbing them, they just need to know the timing. If they don't know it, though, you're in luck.

 

[fusionnoble]

I'm a n00b, but what would work faster, an L cancel or needle grab/anything really.

 

[brwnhawaiin]

so, if i just shoot my needles anytime in the air, its automatically cancels my lag when i hit the ground, or do i have to shoot the needles right before i hit the ground?

 

[Lit]

how do you not get it???...you just throw needles at your opponent while your in the air and in front of them...when you land the needle animation will be cancelled, and your opponent will be a bit stunned from the neddles, then you just grab them from thestun...peace

-hiroshi

yeah its really not that hard...... u just have to learn how to time it.......

 

[darkatma]

so, if i just shoot my needles anytime in the air, its automatically cancels my lag when i hit the ground, or do i have to shoot the needles right before i hit the ground?

Shoot anytime, you autocancel upon landing. But people prefer close to the ground because you can follow up.

I'm a n00b, but what would work faster, an L cancel or needle grab/anything really.

lcanceled fair, nair, bair: 7 frames land lag, plus shield lag before that
autocanceled needle: 4 frames land lag.
It's situational. depends on what your opponent is doing

I was referring to when you're directly next to and above the opponent. The highest distance you can possibly be without it cancelling to a ground-thrown needle. Even if you are this close, any character can still sidestep or jab out of you grabbing them, they just need to know the timing. If they don't know it, though, you're in luck.

usually you don't want to be directly above and next to the opponent. That's what spacing is for, and that's what needles are for.
And yea, every good player can still get you no matter what, it's just a level of prediction added on to your game. Needle cancel(referring to the storing of the needles)-fair? That works too.

 

[brwnhawaiin]

i still have lag when i shoot my needles in the air, the only time my lag seems to get shorter, is when i time it jsut right, and i shoot my needles striaight, rather than at the 45 angle. when i shoot them at the angle, i still see sheik do the whole laggy(crouch on the ground) animation. am i doin something wrong? or does it only work when u time it as u hit the ground. cuz darkatma says shoot them anytime in the air, this is the part im confused on.

 

[yomedrath]

the "crouching" lag is just your standard landing lag, you also have it if you dont do any attack
as soon as you hit the ground, you dont have any lag (after shooting in the 45 degrees angle)
it doesnt really make sence to shoot them straight after jumping, except maybe for some kind of mindgame XD
hope thats what you mean
yomedrath

 

[brwnhawaiin]

the "crouching" lag is just your standard landing lag, you also have it if you dont do any attack
as soon as you hit the ground, you dont have any lag (after shooting in the 45 degrees angle)
it doesnt really make sence to shoot them straight after jumping, except maybe for some kind of mindgame XD
hope thats what you mean
yomedrath

but i thought the point of the autocancled needles is to have less lag than an L cancel. when i L cancel i dont have any "crouch" lag, i just stand right up.

 

[yomedrath]

no you dont
if you l-cancel you still have a few frames lag, depending on the attack
somewhere someone listed them ^^
needle cancel leaves you with no lag, the crouching is just an animation i think...
w/e, i dunno
i´m just figuring ^^
the needle cancel (needle->grab) is used to stun the enemie, and have not as much lag as him, so you can garb (dash attack, running tilt, ...) him.

 

[darkatma]

yea i posted lag frames earlier
needle landing lag is the landing animation lag, which is 4 frames
L canceled aerials have:
fair: 8 frames
bair: 8 frames
nair: 8 frames
uair: 12 frames
dair: 10 frames

Just FYI. and Yomedrath's response is right.

 

[yomedrath]

thanx XD some more wisdom i can impress my frinds with *kidding*
nah, seriously, quite helpfull... except, i cant continusly l-cancel O.o

 

[The_Famous_SK]

Every time I pull this off it gets shielded and I get shield-grabbed. :-/ happens with SHFFL nairs too.

 

[darkatma]

Every time I pull this off it gets shielded and I get shield-grabbed. :-/ happens with SHFFL nairs too.

Then you have to question:
1) are you fastfalling the nairs?
2)are you short hopping the needle canceling or using platforms to needle cancel?
if so, then:
3) are you being so predictable that your opponent shields every time you do a falling nair/needle cancel?(if so, grab more often)

I'ts one of those 3

 

[i_eat_fried_worms]

how is that more useful than nair-L canceling? if they sheild either way you're screwed, and 1 needle does what like 2 damage?

just do the needle hold to use 6 needles, that does 12% right?

 

[offcell]

i still have lag when i shoot my needles in the air, the only time my lag seems to get shorter, is when i time it jsut right, and i shoot my needles striaight, rather than at the 45 angle. when i shoot them at the angle, i still see sheik do the whole laggy(crouch on the ground) animation. am i doin something wrong? or does it only work when u time it as u hit the ground. cuz darkatma says shoot them anytime in the air, this is the part im confused on.

L-cancelling is so you can pull out another move quicker. Try this: needle on the ground then continually press A for a jab. See how long it takes? Now short hop needle and fastfall to jab. Much, much quicker, no?

As for shooting needles anytime, you can, but doing it closer to the ground would mean that the opponent is still stunned by it if hit and then you can just grab. If you do it higher in the air, your opponent will have recovered already and may be prepared for your next move.

 

[knightpraetor]

so basically the trick is to have enough needles that you can still be firing them when you land so they cancel...

someone else mentioned shff ing the needles...

to do this i have to fastfall before i release the needles with B...meaning that if I do it too early i will transform...

as far as i can tell the other way (fastfalling after the needles) doesn't work

 

[offcell]

It does work but I don't know how much it helps. She has needle lag after throwing them so you'd have to wait until the animation is done and then FF. There isn't much difference except that she just lands a half a second faster.