How could Wavedashing be made into an official technique?

[Big-Cat]

Yea, we should talk to them about taking away the jump and grab button.



Would you rather have 2 shield buttons, 2 grab buttons and 2 jump buttons like in Brawl?

And aren't the jump and grab buttons actually just macros?

 

[Chiroz]

And aren't the jump and grab buttons actually just macros?

What does it matter, there's still a button with only that one command on it so a button can have one action as its only use.

Would you be okay if wavedash was a 7 button sequence but there was one button that allowed you to do it with only that one button press?



On a sidenote, there are many unused buttons that are just copies of other buttons. I mean what's the problem with giving them an actual use albeit only a singular use?

 

[The Good Doctor]

My intention was to inform you of the threads current direction and information, nothing more.


I can read

I dont believe a post like this would further the thread, so I assumed it was misinformed. Wouldnt you agree?

And?
I was giving my opinion about the OPs original question.

 

[Psychoace]

He is clearly correct though.

Smash getting Shoryuken/Haduken motions would go against the entire series and what the developers have said they want the controls to be.

Reverse haduken to grab the ledge quickly in brawl.

 

[Snakeyes]

Replicate is a very bad choice of words on this matter.

Really? Sorry, I'm not a native English speaker.

 

[[Corn]]

Really? Sorry, I'm not a native English speaker.

Sorry, just me being a bit picky. Replicate means the exact same mechanic or close to exact copy.
Due to what you said, I thought you actually meant replace. Replace meaning to assume the function of something or become a substitute and not necessarily using the same mechanics. Again, just me being picky, dont pay it much heed.

So what did you want? A wavedash that is just done differently in terms of inputs, or another high level movement technique that also has the attributes of wavedashing?(Advanced movement/positioning). As I was confused myself seeing all the different responses.

 

[Big-Cat]

Would you be okay if wavedash was a 7 button sequence but there was one button that allowed you to do it with only that one button press?

Except no game, ever, has ever required anything like this. I would not be ok with this because there is not even a kinesthetic reason as to why it would require seven buttons to press. I still don't see why QCF motions are so scary to some of you Smash players. You guys really take that whole "simplicity" thing to the grave if you could.

In my opinion, using macros should be used mostly for ergonomic reasons - which is the reason why the default controls for SF4 have the PPP and KKK buttons. It also depends on the game if it's necessary. When you get right down to it, Smash really only needs three buttons and a control stick to do everything. However, I believe that given its platformer roots, it's best to have a jump button.

 

[Chiroz]

Except no game, ever, has ever required anything like this. I would not be ok with this because there is not even a kinesthetic reason as to why it would require seven buttons to press.

That's exactly it, there is no reason to have more complex controls. They exist because there was a valid reason before, but there's no real reason for them to exist anymore except game identity, nostalgia, fear of change and elitism.

I still don't see why QCF motions are so scary to some of you Smash players. You guys really take that whole "simplicity" thing to the grave if you could.

Meh, I don't care if QCF motions are in or not, all I was discussing was whether it was bad design or not, not whether they should be in the game or not . But being bad design, I do think they shouldn't be in the game, but I don't really care either way.

In my opinion, using macros should be used mostly for ergonomic reasons - which is the reason why the default controls for SF4 have the PPP and KKK buttons. It also depends on the game if it's necessary. When you get right down to it, Smash really only needs three buttons and a control stick to do everything. However, I believe that given its platformer roots, it's best to have a jump button.

That's the thing, you think simple controls should be only if necessary when it should be the other way around. Complex controls should only be in a game if necessary.



Also, just as a note even though it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, I hate tap jump, even to this day I can't consistently up-tilt without jumping by mistake every once in a while.

 

[[Corn]]

Except no game, ever, has ever required anything like this. I would not be ok with this because there is not even a kinesthetic reason as to why it would require seven buttons to press. I still don't see why QCF motions are so scary to some of you Smash players. You guys really take that whole "simplicity" thing to the grave if you could.

In my opinion, using macros should be used mostly for ergonomic reasons - which is the reason why the default controls for SF4 have the PPP and KKK buttons. It also depends on the game if it's necessary. When you get right down to it, Smash really only needs three buttons and a control stick to do everything. However, I believe that given its platformer roots, it's best to have a jump button.

Simplicity is a selling point and established basic of the smash series, no thought at all for basic execution, entire focus on everything else. Heck, even the developers like it. I personally wouldn't like anything other then what we have now in terms of inputs, as adding any in allows for the possibility of even more coming after.

Also, just as a note even though it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, I hate tap jump, even to this day I can't consistently up-tilt without jumping by mistake every once in a while.

I cant not use Tap Jump lol, its much more natural to me just to move with one hand and attack with the other. Only time I ever use the button to jump is for short hops in rapid succession.

 

[Chiroz]

I cant not use Tap Jump lol, its much more natural to me just to move with one hand and attack with the other. Only time I ever use the button to jump is for short hops in rapid succession.

I mean I can use the tap jump to jump and I can shffl fine using the control stick too, but I accidentally jump every once in a while when trying to perform an up-tilt. That's why I disable it in Brawl.

 

[Big-Cat]

That's exactly it, there is no reason to have more complex controls. They exist because there was a valid reason before, but there's no real reason for them to exist anymore except game identity, nostalgia, fear of change and elitism.

Please tell me how to simplify Street Fighter without losing any of my options then. Every time they go for simple controls in their vs. games, it's always a limited version of the moveset.

That's the thing, you think simple controls should be only if necessary when it should be the other way around. Complex controls should only be in a game if necessary.

I'm talking about macros, not simplified controls. Simplified controls are a design thing. Virtua Fighter uses three buttons, punch, kick, and guard along with the four additional types of inputs which really could be boiled down to three for ergonomic reasons, possibly just two macros.

Also, just as a note even though it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, I hate tap jump, even to this day I can't consistently up-tilt without jumping by mistake every once in a while.

I hate it myself to. It's fine in a game like KOF, but not here.

 

[[Corn]]

Please tell me how to simplify Street Fighter without losing any of my options then. Every time they go for simple controls in their vs. games, it's always a limited version of the moveset.

SF has many more attacks then smash...

 

[Chiroz]

Please tell me how to simplify Street Fighter without losing any of my options then. Every time they go for simple controls in their vs. games, it's always a limited version of the moveset.

I haven't played SF competitively (or at all except just messing around with some friends) since SF2 so I might be a bit ignorant. I will list some things I remember from back then and things I assume could change although I might be wrong as I do not hold the knowledge to actually discuss this correctly.

I think the main things that would help is having most inputs be the same.

Basically number the specials each character has and give all moves with the same number the same input. Chun Li's first special would be het multi-kicking and would be done the same way Hadouken is done for Ryu.

You do not have to have all characters have the same number of moves, you could have a character with 6 moves and another with 4, only the first 4 moves of both of the characters (the only 4 for the 2nd one) would be performed in the exact same way.

I am unsure about this, but does SF use every button, direction and extra button combinations? I mean, is X, Y, A, B, R1, R2, L1, L2, X+Y, X+A, X+B, ...., etc, etc

I think you could map every move in SF that is not part of a combo into simple button commands like this paired with direction. Why wouldn't this be feasable?

The reason it shouldn't be done in my opinion is that SF has a game identity. The complex controls are a part of SF since its beginnings and changing them would change the feeling of SF which would not sit well with its fans. But the act of changing to simpler controls is completely possible, at least from my ignorant point of view.

I'm talking about macros, not simplified controls. Simplified controls are a design thing. Virtua Fighter uses three buttons, punch, kick, and guard along with the four additional types of inputs which really could be boiled down to three for ergonomic reasons, possibly just two macros.

Ok, I understand.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think the main things that would help is having most inputs be the same.

Basically number the specials each character has and give all moves with the same number the same input. Chun Li's first special would be het multi-kicking and would be done the same way Hadouken is done for Ryu.

You do not have to have all characters have the same number of moves, you could have a character with 6 moves and another with 4, only the first 4 moves of both of the characters (the only 4 for the 2nd one) would be performed in the exact same way.

Except in the bigger picture, it makes no sense. As I've said before, try actually doing these moves with the motions in mind and it becomes a lot clearer. They actually make sense and are fairly consistent. Uppercut type moves like Shoryuken and Cammy's Cannon Spike both have the save DP input save for one uses a punch and the other a kick. Likewise, fireball characters use either a half circle or a quarter circle forward for their projectiles. However, you may have characters like El Fuerte that use the QCF+P input for something different like a run.

Charge characters tend to be put into a different position because they're defensive characters, meaning there's a lot of holding back and down-back so the charge inputs make sense there as well, even if they aren't exactly intuitive to most.

I am unsure about this, but does SF use every button, direction and extra button combinations? I mean, is X, Y, A, B, R1, R2, L1, L2, X+Y, X+A, X+B, ...., etc, etc

I think you could map every move in SF that is not part of a combo into simple button commands like this paired with direction. Why wouldn't this be feasable?

Street Fighter requires the use of six face buttons. Since the SF3 series, the LP+LK, MP+MK, and the HP+HK inputs have been used with the functions of them changing depending on the game, with Street Fighter X Tekken being a prime example.

There really aren't any simultaneous inputs for doing combos in Street Fighter unless we're talking supers and ultras which are another thing altogether.

The reason it shouldn't be done in my opinion is that SF has a game identity. The complex controls are a part of SF since its beginnings and changing them would change the feeling of SF which would not sit well with its fans. But the act of changing to simpler controls is completely possible, at least from my ignorant point of view.

Every game has an identity, but where do you draw the line between what's okay to change and what not and why. As I've said in other threads, just because it's unique doesn't mean it's good (i.e. random tripping).

And I still greatly disagree that the SF controls or any fighting game's controls are complex. They're different from what most people are used to and that's the gist of it.

 

[Snakeyes]

Sorry, just me being a bit picky. Replicate means the exact same mechanic or close to exact copy.
Due to what you said, I thought you actually meant replace. Replace meaning to assume the function of something or become a substitute and not necessarily using the same mechanics. Again, just me being picky, dont pay it much heed.

So what did you want? A wavedash that is just done differently in terms of inputs, or another high level movement technique that also has the attributes of wavedashing?(Advanced movement/positioning). As I was confused myself seeing all the different responses.

OK, that makes sense.

At first I was just thinking of an "official" wavedash with a simple input, but an entirely new technique with similar characteristics could be even more interesting.

 

[Chiroz]

Except in the bigger picture, it makes no sense. As I've said before, try actually doing these moves with the motions in mind and it becomes a lot clearer. They actually make sense and are fairly consistent. Uppercut type moves like Shoryuken and Cammy's Cannon Spike both have the save DP input save for one uses a punch and the other a kick. Likewise, fireball characters use either a half circle or a quarter circle forward for their projectiles. However, you may have characters like El Fuerte that use the QCF+P input for something different like a run.

Charge characters tend to be put into a different position because they're defensive characters, meaning there's a lot of holding back and down-back so the charge inputs make sense there as well, even if they aren't exactly intuitive to most.

You cannot actually see the attack until after you have already learned how to do it. Also animations could have been done different. They already are what the are but at any moment they could have been done in a different ways to match different inputs. Most animations seem to match because in your mind they already do. Having a Hadouken be foward and a combination of 2 face buttons is just as if not more intuitive than doing the semi circle input.

Street Fighter requires the use of six face buttons. Since the SF3 series, the LP+LK, MP+MK, and the HP+HK inputs have been used with the functions of them changing depending on the game, with Street Fighter X Tekken being a prime example.

There really aren't any simultaneous inputs for doing combos in Street Fighter unless we're talking supers and ultras which are another thing altogether.

Well I was just using that to state the fact that there is a possibility to do it, it just wouldn't be a good idea.

Every game has an identity, but where do you draw the line between what's okay to change and what not and why. As I've said in other threads, just because it's unique doesn't mean it's good (i.e. random tripping).

And I still greatly disagree that the SF controls or any fighting game's controls are complex. They're different from what most people are used to and that's the gist of it.

Yes but random tripping is not part of the smash identity. If all maps were to be made into Runners (Bridge of Eldin style maps) then Smash would lose one of its identifying traits. By identity I meant something that if it is removed then the game won't feel like the same game as the previous installations. Not tripping doesn't make you feel like its not Smash. Pressing foward, LP and LK in order to execute a Hadouken does make you feel like something is just missing, at least in my opinion.

All in all I think the line is drawn at what works and what does not. As long as a mechanic work, if it is already integrated so deep into your game then you shouldn't take it out to facilitate gameplay as you would probably get bad reviews from fans even if newer players might like the game more. If something does not work then it should always be removed, as long as it isn't something completely gamebreaking (meaning something that if you removed it the game would not work).

Complex controls or inputs work. They aren't bad, they serve their purpose. I don't think old series of fighting games need to change their controls at all, why would they do it? Why fix something that isn't broken. Yet... I also believe no new fighting game series should introduce these controls, there is no need to either. Why would you make your controls complex when you have the ability to make them simple?