How could Wavedashing be made into an official technique?

[XavierSylfaen]

Smashboards can't possibly be this stupid.

Yeah bro, we should have complicated multi-button inputs instead of simplified ones. ****ing casual idiots.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Yeah bro, we should have complicated multi-button inputs instead of simplified ones. ****ing casual idiots.

The sarcasm really isn't helping your case, dude.

 

[[Corn]]

The sarcasm really isn't helping your case, dude.

He is clearly correct though.

Smash getting Shoryuken/Haduken motions would go against the entire series and what the developers have said they want the controls to be.

 

[XavierSylfaen]

let's review

"Because it's a different STYLE of execution doesn't decrease the room for marginal error."

and then I proved that wrong

"The reason why there is more room for error in these moves is to prevent a blatant misuse and to level the risk and rewards for executing such a move."

and then I explained why that's a bad system

"Smashboards can't possibly be this stupid."

and then I got called stupid for calling out poor control design

I don't even think there is a "case" here.

To quote Slobodan:

huh? So are you suggesting its wrong to call out a poorly designed system just because the traditional fighter is better established? Just because smash is in the minority doesn't mean we should blindly accept all the arbitrary rules fighters have accumulated over the years.

There's nothing interesting or intuitive about memorizing a complex input like that, especially when its just a preset command. When you pick up a character in smash, you can immediately use all of that character's moves because the game shares a common logic. That way, you can get to the more interesting part of the game which is HOW you choose to use those moves rather than memorizing a bunch of awkward, hard-coded inputs.

Streetfighter and similar fighters have SIX ****ING BUTTONS for all the attack commands, and among those 6 buttons they still feel the need to make a "double quarter-circle while pushing 3 attack buttons simultaneously" input? That's pretty stupid and inefficient honestly. The smash series gets 15 attacks just from one button and the control stick. Which is the more elegant system? Why should we have to keep putting up with this bull****?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

He is clearly correct though.

Smash getting Shoryuken/Haduken motions would go against the entire series and what the developers have said they want the controls to be.

No no no, it's not that. If you read what the poster was responding too, you would know that he is basically saying that street fighter and games similar t it are dumb and artificially difficult.

I mean, how can you sit there with a strait face and say that the game series that established the very foundation of how fighting games are is stupid. Rotation base inputs aren't needed for smash, but they sure as hell make a lot of sense for other fighting games, and learning the stuff isn't that difficult when you understand the mechanics of the game. I learned how to Hadouken before I even rode a bicycle . And what the hell does "artificially difficult" mean anyway? Can't you just say it's difficult, rather, admit that you aren't capable of passing simple execution barriers and you are just asserting a popular opinion formulated by people who are also incapable of such a feat? No, you just blatantly insult.

Street Figher, Guilty Gear, Capcom vs SNK, King of Fighters, Project Justice or whatever the **** you play are all respectable games in their own rights, and the difficulty barriers are there so that you can overcome them. Hell we probably wouldn't be playing fighting anything without these "difficult" games.

Xavier: It's not poor control design. If it was these inputs wouldn't have been around for 20+ years. Your execution is just poor.

 

[Chiroz]

No no no, it's not that. If you read what the poster was responding too, you would know that he is basically saying that street fighter and games similar t it are dumb and artificially difficult.

I mean, how can you sit there with a strait face and say that the game series that established the very foundation of how fighting games are is stupid. Rotation base inputs aren't needed for smash, but they sure as hell make a lot of sense for other fighting games, and learning the stuff isn't that difficult when you understand the mechanics of the game. I learned how to Hadouken before I even rode a bicycle . And what the hell does "artificially difficult" mean anyway? Can't you just say it's difficult, rather, admit that you aren't capable of passing simple execution barriers and you are just asserting a popular opinion formulated by people who are also incapable of such a feat? No, you just blatantly insult.

Street Figher, Guilty Gear, Capcom vs SNK, King of Fighters, Project Justice or whatever the **** you play are all respectable games in their own rights, and the difficulty barriers are there so that you can overcome them. Hell we probably wouldn't be playing fighting anything without these "difficult" games.

Xavier: It's not poor control design. If it was these inputs wouldn't have been around for 20+ years. Your execution is just poor.

I don't want to go very deep into it. But it is poor design.

You have to remember these games are NES and SNES era which means there weren't as many buttons or directions on the controllers. When they needed to introduce new attacks they had to make it into complex inputs so that you would be able to execute the one move you actually want and not mistakenly execute another.

For example pressing Side B would be running and then punching. If they had made you throw a hadouken with that input would take away the ability to run and punch. Pressing Down B would be a crouched punch, anything else being that input would take away the ability to crouch and punch. And thus complex inputs were born.

Basically these complex inputs were there to provide more options to the players. Because it was either complex inputs or less options, they opted for the correct design at that time, which was complex inputs which would allow for more options.

As the series grew bigger characters already had their trademark inputs, we all know how to do a hadouken, don't we? Which is why it has stayed that way even now that controllers have more buttons than are needed.

New fighters on the other hand just introduce said complex inputs because if they didn't do it then they wouldn't be considered part of the big boys club. (basically a fighter without complex inputs would be looked down upon by the players, just like how Smash is looked down upon).

But the above statement is only true because players are already used to complex controls and they gain a sense of status when being able to perform it. If something they can relate (a fighting game) also relates to people who have not gained this status (being able to perform these complex inputs) then people feel like it isn't right, it isn't what they are doing at all, it isn't a fighting game, it's something else. When in fact, it is.

These are the reasons those inputs are still alive today. If no fighting game had ever be made and the first SF were to be released on PS3, XBox 360 those controls would probably not exist at all. They are bad design. Nothing to discuss.

 

[[Corn]]

No no no, it's not that. If you read what the poster was responding too, you would know that he is basically saying that street fighter and games similar t it are dumb and artificially difficult.

I mean, how can you sit there with a strait face and say that the game series that established the very foundation of how fighting games are is stupid. Rotation base inputs aren't needed for smash, but they sure as hell make a lot of sense for other fighting games, and learning the stuff isn't that difficult when you understand the mechanics of the game. I learned how to Hadouken before I even rode a bicycle . And what the hell does "artificially difficult" mean anyway? Can't you just say it's difficult, rather, admit that you aren't capable of passing simple execution barriers and you are just asserting a popular opinion formulated by people who are also incapable of such a feat? No, you just blatantly insult.

Street Figher, Guilty Gear, Capcom vs SNK, King of Fighters, Project Justice or whatever the **** you play are all respectable games in their own rights, and the difficulty barriers are there so that you can overcome them. Hell we probably wouldn't be playing fighting anything without these "difficult" games.

Xavier: It's not poor control design. If it was these inputs wouldn't have been around for 20+ years. Your execution is just poor.

He is correct that some moves in the series add artificial difficulty. He is also correct in saying that Smash does not need any further inputs. He is incorrect saying that having 6 attack buttons in unnecessary, as they all have a different base function. Many techniques though have very odd inputs that would be better off somehow.

Artifical Difficulty is adding some(usually technical)aspect of the game that when removed/made simple wouldnt effect the skill ceiling of the overall game nor really any meta and such.

Since you meantioned Injustice, They are currently complaining about the DBF command. Some characters dont have quarter circles and instead have DBF commands that are essential to even playing the character at a decent level. There would be no reason as to why not make those commands quarter circles besides making a basic move easier and more natural to execute. That is the kind of artificial difficulty I am talking about.

 

[Jaedrik]

There's a simple way to have Wavedashing with Brawl style airdodges, it would be very official. Simply, whenever you are close to the ground, but are technically in the air, you may airdodge. The game will recognize it as such and promptly slam you down into the ground, you wavedash whichever direction your momentum is going, and for quick wavedashing, whichever direction your stick is being pulled. No need for down inputs, just jump, direction, airdodge.

Simple, sweet, easy. The only problem that I can foresee is when someone wants to jump away and airdodge at the same time, but that is few and far between when wavedashing is possible, as well you could add the requirement that you must be holding a down direction to wavedash.
Simply, if you do a down diagonal airdodge when close to the ground, it will treat it as a wavedash/Melee air dodge. If you are in neutral or not pressing a down diagonal direction, you will get the Brawl airdodge, even when close to the ground.

 

[XavierSylfaen]

@Eternal

I'm not saying that games like SF and other traditional fighters are bad games, or that they're "dumb", insinuating they don't have as much depth or something. I'm just stating that the way the controls work is stupid.

I won't bother explaining myself further because Raykz already expressed my sentiment perfectly.

 

[Big-Cat]

Just skimmed the topic and I'll put in my input (no pun intended):

Rotational inputs are NOT bad design. These inputs exist so as to make designing characters a lot more flexible. Arguably the biggest burden of Smash Bros. movesets is that they're always the same number of moves (not counting angled Smashes), no more and no less. The QCFs and such allow the developers to go ignore these limits to a certain extent. Smash requires every character to have four specials. Street Fighter has no restriction from the two special Guile to the eight special Ibuki and this is because of the rotational/charge inputs.

Rotational inputs also make sense if you bother to stop for a minute and look at how the moves are done by the characters. Even the charge ones apply to this. That charge input for Sonic Boom? Look at what Guile does with his arms. He rows them back and then swings them for the attack. Rotational inputs also deal with "masking" the startup by tossing some of the startup into the input itself. Guile would be overpowered if it weren't for the charge input.

I say that a wavedash input should be a QCF input. It doesn't get in the way of anything and everytime you use it is deliberate. Alternatively, a double down-foward input would be just as good for the people here who are terrified of QCFs.

BTW, Return to Dreamland has the QCF input for one powerup as a Street Fighter shoutout.

 

[[Corn]]

Just skimmed the topic and I'll put in my input (no pun intended):

Rotational inputs are NOT bad design. These inputs exist so as to make designing characters a lot more flexible. Arguably the biggest burden of Smash Bros. movesets is that they're always the same number of moves (not counting angled Smashes), no more and no less. BTW, Return to Dreamland has the QCF input for one powerup as a Street Fighter shoutout.

You realize that developers have stated that's what they consider being a unique aspect of smash right? As all characters have the same number of moves and all of them only require a direction and a button.

This would also be extremely odd, as in you can wave dash towards the ground at many angles. Making it not reliant on a direction would be wrong.

No game needs double QCF inputs unless all easier inputs are taken, that is artificial difficulty in its finest.

 

[Chiroz]

Rotational inputs are NOT bad design. These inputs exist so as to make designing characters a lot more flexible. Arguably the biggest burden of Smash Bros. movesets is that they're always the same number of moves (not counting angled Smashes), no more and no less. The QCFs and such allow the developers to go ignore these limits to a certain extent. Smash requires every character to have four specials. Street Fighter has no restriction from the two special Guile to the eight special Ibuki and this is because of the rotational/charge inputs.

Not to be mean but this holds no truth.

If Sakurai so desired someone could have 3 Smash attacks. The perfect example is Megaman, he has no Side Tilt or Neutral Air. The only reason Sakurai keeps the same number of moves is because he believes in good design and his design of how moves are executed is very optimal (excepting tilts which could have been mapped to a different button). Having the execution of moves like he does means one less artificial barrier to learning a new character and being able to learn new characters without going through that barrier over and over again. Also having different inputs does not mean different number of moves, if the SF designer wanted he could have made every character have the same number of moves, only, he didn't want to.

The fact that in your picture the sky is blue and in mine the sky is red does not mean your car is prettier than mine.

 

[Big-Cat]

Maybe it's wrong, maybe it's not, but if you want Wavedashing to be an official technique, it has to have its restrictions and uses.

And I never said to use double scoops as a wavedash input. I said to use a double down-foward tilt, it's just two taps downward.

 

[Chiroz]

Let's look at another game's history, look at MOBA's.

When DotA first started most moves hotkeys were the first letters of the name. As the game kept going they tried to restrain this to only keys that would be pressable with the left hand, what this means is that it was any key between the A and T columns and between the A and Z rows. This allowed the inputs to be comfortable, but they were still extremely complex, you had to learn every character's 4-5 hotkeys mandatorily before you could even begin to learn the characters actual gameplay at high level.

Now look at League of Legends, all attacks are always Q, W, E and R, it doesn't change per character. You don't have to relearn the hotkeys of every single character. This means that as soon as you jump on a character you already know what the inputs are, allowing you to focus in learning the actual commands.

I believe games like DotA 2 and HoN are actually learning from this and are changing (I haven't played them actually so I don't know), but either way it remains, LoL's way of doing it is much simpler, elegant and overall just much better design.

 

[The Good Doctor]

If it was in more than 1 game, I could see the point to this thread.
Sequels are not meant to be the same as the original, unless the development team is very lazy.

As much as I love Melee, I don't want a Melee 2, I already have Melee

 

[[Corn]]

If it was in more than 1 game, I could see the point to this thread.
Sequels are not meant to be the same as the original, unless the development team is very lazy.

As much as I love Melee, I don't want a Melee 2, I already have Melee

I dont really care about wavedashing.

We are currently discussing controls and artificial difficulty in relation to smash.

 

[The Good Doctor]

I dont really care about wavedashing.

We are currently discussing controls and artificial difficulty in relation to smash.

Well how about you make a new thread then, that's the name of this thread isn't it?
Don't +1 your post count in such an obvious manner.

 

[[Corn]]

Well how about you make a new thread then, that's the name of this thread isn't it?
Don't +1 your post count in such an obvious manner.

Evolution of a discussion, it still very much relates to a way if we could or could not implement such a mechanic without using the airdodge.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Evolution of a discussion, it still very much relates to a way if we could or could not implement such a mechanic without using the airdodge.

Then why reply to my original post in such a manner? I wasn't holding the discussion back by actually addressing the OP.
Lmao, you kids crack me up.

 

[[Corn]]

Then why reply to my original post in such a manner? I wasn't holding the discussion back by actually addressing the OP.
Lmao, you kids crack me up.

My intention was to inform you of the threads current direction and information, nothing more.

If it was in more than 1 game, I could see the point to this thread.
Sequels are not meant to be the same as the original, unless the development team is very lazy.

As much as I love Melee, I don't want a Melee 2, I already have Melee

I dont believe a post like this would further the thread, so I assumed it was misinformed. Wouldnt you agree?

 

[TheCatPhysician]

There's a simple way to have Wavedashing with Brawl style airdodges, it would be very official. Simply, whenever you are close to the ground, but are technically in the air, you may airdodge. The game will recognize it as such and promptly slam you down into the ground, you wavedash so whichever direction your momentum is going, and for quick wavedashing, whichever direction your stick is being pulled. No need for down inputs, just jump, direction, airdodge.

Simple, sweet, easy. The only problem that I can foresee is when someone wants to jump away and airdodge at the same time, but that is few and far between when wavedashing is possible, as well you could add the requirement that you must be holding a down direction to wavedash.
Simply, if you do a down diagonal airdodge when close to the ground, it will treat it as a wavedash/Melee air dodge. If you are in neutral or not pressing a down diagonal direction, you will get the Brawl airdodge, even when close to the ground.

That's a pretty good idea. The only difference between it and mine is that you can only do a directional airdodge when close to the ground, which doesn't intuitively make sense. Why not just be able to perform a directional airdodge whenever you want, as well as brawl airdodge by holding no direction? That way you can also make use of the directional air dodge as a recovery. Also, it wouldnt make it anymore difficult since your idea requires all of the inputs and timing of a regular wavedash.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Alright I think we got enough answers on effective methods of implementing a dash in the game,
But this thread is really all about directional inputs vs simplified smash inputs.

Alot of fighting games now have an optional control method for special moves, where one button is used to initiate the special moves like hadokens and such, and the special move activated depends on what direction you press on the joystick.

I believe that Tatsunoko vs Capcom and Street Fighter 4 used this, the downside to using this shortcut rather than the directional input plus one of the light,medium or heavy attack buttons is a lack of power in the special move, as it usually executes a light special move if you use the shortcut.

Smash Bros has a similar feature, the C-Stick. If you just use the C-Stick you get a weak smash, whereas if you do the directional input and press the attack button you can get a stronger smash. It's not really a downside in Smash though because alot of the time people want to use a quick smash, and the c-stick also works as a way to pull off smash attacks or air attacks while moving with the other stick.

Unfortunately for games like Street Fighter, they'd need to add two more buttons for special moves shortcuts. A Light, Medium, and Heavy special button, so that players can select the power of the special move without having to do the directional input.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I think this would be a good opportunity for the second analog stick to come into play, as others have alluded to. For instance, you dash forward, smash the second stick the opposite direction, and you wavedash back (or moonwalk in a sense).

 

[Chiroz]

I think this would be a good opportunity for the second analog stick to come into play, as others have alluded to. For instance, you dash forward, smash the second stick the opposite direction, and you wavedash back (or moonwalk in a sense).

This would eliminate the ability to C-Stick though. I believe it would be simpler to have one of the 4 unused buttons be used for wavedash.

 

[Big-Cat]

But why waste an entire button for just one action?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

This would eliminate the ability to C-Stick though. I believe it would be simpler to have one of the 4 unused buttons be used for wavedash.

Not really. If you wanted to reverse smash (pivot), you'd have to release/reverse your movement stick anyway. The second stick doesn't have to be only for sliding around. It just intuitively does it based on your motion.

 

[Chiroz]

But why waste an entire button for just one action?

Yea, we should talk to them about taking away the jump and grab button.



Would you rather have 2 shield buttons, 2 grab buttons and 2 jump buttons like in Brawl?

 

[Hong]

A lot of games have short, fast, elaborate movements in them. They allow for methodical positioning, but are inefficient for travel compared to running. I think just some kind of "dash" for every character could be cool if they can map it right.

 

[Chiroz]

Not really. If you wanted to reverse smash (pivot), you'd have to release/reverse your movement stick anyway. The second stick doesn't have to be only for sliding around. It just intuitively does it based on your motion.

Ok, cool. It still seems weird to me though.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Speaking of which, is the Wii U Pro controller good? I haven't tried it yet. That would affect my opinion of this discussion greatly.

 

[Chiroz]

Speaking of which, is the Wii U Pro controller good? I haven't tried it yet. That would affect my opinion of this discussion greatly.

Its just like an XBox 360 Controller only the Stick position is changed. The control has the exact same dimensions as the XBox 360 controller but its materials and textures feel much, much better. Buttons feel sort of nicer and tighter and so does the Control Sticks (they are firm and not slippery like Wii Nunchuk).

Basically the only thing you might not like from the controller is the changed control stick positions. I myself am very positive about it to the point that I just today downloaded a Melee Emulator in order to try it out. I believe that the new control stick position actually helps people who use the C-Stick a lot (and most of us do ). I will also customize my buttons in order to gain further efficiency by trying to limit my thumbs movement from the right control stick, allowing me to be on top of it at all times.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Its just like an XBox 360 Controller only the Stick position is changed. The control has the exact same dimensions as the XBox 360 controller but its materials and textures feel mucho, mucho better. Buttons feel sort of nicer and tighter and so does the Control Sticks (they are firm and not slippery like Wii Nunchuk).

Basically the only thing you might not like from the controller is the changed control stick positions. I myself am very positive about it to the point that I just today downloaded a Melee Emulator in order to try it out. I believe that the new control stick position actually helps people who use the C-Stick a lot (and most of us do ). I will also customize my buttons in order to gain further efficiency by trying to limit my thumbs movement from the right control stick, allowing me to be on top of it at all times.

I have no existing loyalty to the XBOX controller, so this all seems positive. My only distant concern would be the right stick's positioning changing its role from the Gamecube days. The C-stick being below the primary buttons allowed it to integrate better with fast gameplay. With the stick being above, it wouldn't flow as well, in my mind. But hey, I'd love to try it out and be completely wrong.

 

[Chiroz]

I have no existing loyalty to the XBOX controller, so this all seems positive. My only distant concern would be the right stick's positioning changing its role from the Gamecube days. The C-stick being below the primary buttons allowed it to integrate better with fast gameplay. With the stick being above, it wouldn't flow as well, in my mind. But hey, I'd love to try it out and be completely wrong.

I expect to be able to customize all controls just like in Brawl. so in my opinion the sticks new position is more comfortable for C-Sticking.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I expect to be able to customize all controls just like in Brawl. so in my opinion the sticks new position is more comfortable for C-Sticking.

Does it support generic PC usage much like the other Wii peripherals? I may just go buy one for kicks.

 

[Chiroz]

Does it support generic PC usage much like the other Wii peripherals? I may just go buy one for kicks.

I haven't been able to connect it to the PC, but apparently it connects to the PC just like the Wii Mote. It seems I need an USB bluetooth dongle to connect it according to people on other forums. But it is quite possible.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I haven't been able to connect it to the PC, but apparently it connects to the PC just like the Wii Mote. It seems I need an USB bluetooth dongle to connect it according to people on other forums. But it is quite possible.

I thought the pro controller supported direct USB connection too... or is that just for charging?

 

[ScubaF_ingSteve]

I thought the pro controller supported direct USB connection too... or is that just for charging?

I'm almost positive it's just charging.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I'm almost positive it's just charging.

Sad day. Oh well.

Even if it's not actual wavedashing per se, I hope Sakurai and crew recognize that players want a lot of movement options. I feel that is one area that was done right in Brawl. While it wasn't as fast/snappy as Melee, at least the "rolls" were fast and effective compared to Melee characters' vanilla rolls. There needs to be quick ways to adjust spacing and whatnot.

 

[ScubaF_ingSteve]

Sad day. Oh well.

If you can direct me in a way to testing that for you, I'll go grab mine and we can check. I'm almost positive it doesn't though.

 

[Chiroz]

It's just for charging.

It can be any USB Dongle apparently, you just need it to install a program called Toshiba Bluetooth Manager. The thing is the control can connect through bluetooth with the PC and the PC recognizes the control completely but the Pro Controller doesn't recognize the PC apparently so... there's a program someone made that coupled with the Toshiba Program that allows the controller to send the inputs to the PC.

Unfortunately the Toshiba program demands me to connect a bluetooth device before it can finish installing. I looked it up online and it needs an usb bluetooth dongle to install.