How buffed is Zelda online?

[Othello-SSBU]

I've seen people say that Zelda gets buffed online before, but I always kind of dismissed it a little bit. With people talking about a Sonic ban, It got me thinking about if Zelda is in a similar position in the meta at the moment. M2K has gone as far as to say that Zelda is the best character online citing the classic "Up B is true in neutral" and "Neutral B- Neutral B is true online", and ESAM has admitted that he thinks Zelda is top 5 online.
My personal opinion is that she is wayy overhyped for online play because unlike Sonic, we aren't seeing random online Zelda players get top 8 on online tournaments or have super large upsets. Gimr just made a good video talking about why sonic gets buffed online based on the area that he can cover with un-reactable moves. If we take M2K's example of Up-B being "True" and disect it, we see that the second hitbox doesn't come out until frame 35, and with an audio cue on frame 6 that gives us 31 frames to work with. Using Gimr's estimate of 18 frames for reaction time/monitor delay and add 5-6 frames of input lag for online, you see that there it's still 7 ****ing frames away from being 'true'. I hate how this is presented in M2K's video because he's usually an analytical player and for him to characterize that as true under normal circumstances is so uncharacteristic.
I think this is a common thing online, where people are so quick to blame lag that they miss obvious counterplay (not dash dancing at the opposite side of the stage just asking to get caught in the initial dash, pulling turnips in a telegraphed way) and refuse to respect the option. Another thing I hear people bring up is how hard it is to space around/react to phantom, but I don't think that they realize that both players are in the same condition, so while it may be hard to space around phantom, it's equally hard to place one safely for the Zelda. I think overall, it's just ridiculous that some people would jump her up ~15 spots on the tier list just because of ~5 frames of input delay, especially when her gameplan doesn't even involve overwhelming the opponent with unreactable situations. Idk maybe I'm just biased because all of my alts suck ass and I don't practice them online. What do you guys think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgsmMKeYgno M2K's video, around 26:10

 

[Othello-SSBU]

I've seen people say that Zelda gets buffed online before, but I always kind of dismissed it a little bit. With people talking about a Sonic ban, It got me thinking about if Zelda is in a similar position in the meta at the moment. M2K has gone as far as to say that Zelda is the best character online citing the classic "Up B is true in neutral" and "Neutral B- Neutral B is true online", and ESAM has admitted that he thinks Zelda is top 5 online.
My personal opinion is that she is wayy overhyped for online play because unlike Sonic, we aren't seeing random online Zelda players get top 8 on online tournaments or have super large upsets. Gimr just made a good video talking about why sonic gets buffed online based on the area that he can cover with un-reactable moves. If we take M2K's example of Up-B being "True" and disect it, we see that the second hitbox doesn't come out until frame 35, and with an audio cue on frame 6 that gives us 31 frames to work with. Using Gimr's estimate of 18 frames for reaction time/monitor delay and add 5-6 frames of input lag for online, you see that there it's still 7 ****ing frames away from being 'true'. This means that you would have to be playing with 12 frames of input lag for that to even be valid, which is only achievable if you are in the Australian outback playing on a dial-up connection made from a Ham radio. I hate how this is presented in M2K's video because he's usually an analytical player and for him to characterize that as true under common circumstances is so uncharacteristic. His neutral B point is just the same thing, but it makes even less sense (-25 on a shield, literally press any button, her next one won't even come out before 36 frames have passed)
I think this is a common thing online, where people are so quick to blame lag that they miss obvious counterplay (not dash dancing at the opposite side of the stage just asking to get caught in the initial dash, pulling turnips in a telegraphed way) and refuse to respect the option. Another thing I hear people bring up is how hard it is to space around/react to phantom, but I don't think that they realize that both players are in the same condition, so while it may be hard to space around phantom, it's equally hard to place one safely for the Zelda. I think overall, it's just ridiculous that some people would jump her up ~15 spots on the tier list just because of ~5 frames of input delay, especially when her gameplan doesn't even involve overwhelming the opponent with unreactable situations. Idk maybe I'm just biased because all of my alts suck ass and I don't practice them online. What do you guys think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgsmMKeYgno M2K's video, around 26:10

 

[Lacrimosa]

I want to keep it short: She's significantly worse Online.
Mainly because Phantom requires precision and you don't have that Online.

 

[Rickster]

To put it bluntly I think actual Zelda mains who are good with her are nerfed online because those are the Zelda players who actually use her whole moveset and depend on precision to land things like kicks and tight combos. Not to mention the DP tech becomes harder as well, which is extremely vital to her gameplan.

The ones who spam her B moves are buffed a little, but only because the players they go against are bad and can't punish Nayru's, a move that is like -30 on block.

Seriously I'm so tired of people complaining about her neutral B, calling it "unpunishable" and "lagless". If you really can't punish a move that's THAT unsafe on block idk what to say.

The best part is that pretty much everyone said the move sucked in 4. It's one of her least changed moves in Ult but now it's "annoying and broken". >_>

Don't even get me started on people dodging her either. I get kicked out of arenas constantly, and half the time I don't even get to play before I'm banished.

 

[Oz o:]

Maybe it is true, at least to some degree. I still don't see how this would affect the good and fast characters who can whiff punish really well, like Fox, Chrom/Roy, etc. They can all get around Phantom and shouldn't struggle to whiff punish stuff like Nayru's.

To put it bluntly I think actual Zelda mains who are good with her are nerfed online because those are the Zelda players who actually use her whole moveset and depend on precision to land things like kicks and tight combos. Not to mention the DP tech becomes harder as well, which is extremely vital to her gameplan.

I'm incredibly surprised at how accurate this is. I'm pretty stubborn as it is, so I'm someone that doesn't like having to compromise, which is why I do a lot worse online. I realise that I can beat a lot of these people by spamming Dash Attack.

The ones who spam her B moves are buffed a little, but only because the players they go against are bad and can't punish Nayru's, a move that is like -30 on block.

Seriously I'm so tired of people complaining about her neutral B, calling it "unpunishable" and "lagless". If you really can't punish a move that's THAT unsafe on block idk what to say.

The best part is that pretty much everyone said the move sucked in 4. It's one of her least changed moves in Ult but now it's "annoying and broken". >_>

Thing is, there's some truth to that. Yeah, it's -30 on shield. But then, go shield while you're trying to punish her for something. Chances are, you're getting punished in the middle of your dash animation, so it's not like you can even shield. A lot of people just use it right after doing something and they're about to punish you, whereas other characters would roll or spotdodge instead.

Or if you have a sword, it should be far less of a problem.

Don't even get me started on people dodging her either. I get kicked out of arenas constantly, and half the time I don't even get to play before I'm banished.

On one hand, you kind of get it. A lot of these bad wifi Zeldas just ruined the reputation of us hardworking folk that want to give her a good name. On the other, I find it ****ing ignorant, that they don't even give me the chance of a single match, at least. This is partly why I'm currently opting to just make my own Arenas, since I can control how many people come in, who to Kick (if they're annoying) and just having a competitive ruleset.[/QUOTE]

 

[StoicPhantom]

No, it's completely ridiculous to suggest that buffing relatively gimmicky moves in exchange for nerfing your good moves makes you the the best online character. FW I can understand somewhat because it is legitimately difficult to meaningfully punish that move in some cases and you can sometimes forget to keep your finger on the shield button, especially when you want to go for an edgeguard. But that is completely moot when you factor in it being more optimal to ledge trap or catch Zelda's landing and she has nowhere to go but into you if she Up-Bs onto the stage as well as the -19 shield advantage and walking being a movement option. I also don't know where M2K is getting the idea you can edgeguard a good Zelda offline without lots of risk either.

And you don't even need to shield Nayru's Love. It has a FAF of 58 frames(!). Intangibility ends on frame 13 making it vulnerable for 45 frames(!!). That's on par with the average smash attack. You can drop any long lasting hitbox or disjoint during that time and get a free setup or kill. Literally just dash towards Zelda and full hop Nair or stop and Fsmash after she starts Nayru up. Not to mention that it is a defensive move. Literally just don't approach and she can't hit you with it. It's not like the run of the mill WiFi Zelda understands how to use Phantom properly anyways.

I just legitimately don't understand how Nayru of all things is the most complained about. Once or twice I can understand as you have to remember you can't just rushdown even bad WiFi Zeldas. But after that you really shouldn't be mindlessly running into it anymore. I've done the ditto against Zeldas with piss awful connections and still spank them consistently. If you can consistently win the ditto online, where Zelda is one of her own worst MUs, then she isn't that hard to beat online.


If I wasn't so lazy I would make a video showcasing every move that can beat Nayru's Love and attempt to distribute it all over the internet.

The best part is that pretty much everyone said the move sucked in 4. It's one of her least changed moves in Ult but now it's "annoying and broken". >_>

This so much. The misinformation around Zelda is already staggering, but let's not pretend that Nayru wasn't one her best moves in 4 and isn't one of her weakest moves in Ultimate. The engine change alone made it weaker, but it technically got nerfed frame data wise in the transition, so it is objectively weaker in Ultimate.



Bottom line is Zelda is still strong online relative to other members of the cast, but is nowhere near best or even top 10. Wifi Link's roll and airdodge is still the same as it was in Smash 4 where he was one of the few WiFi monsters, but now he has a ridiculous ****ing Nair that goes through everything and a bomb that is annoying as all get out. WiFi DK gets a buff on every single aspect of him and has some of the fakest Fair edgeguards in the game. WiFi Sonic was literally banned from online tournaments and had a video from a famous analyst explaining why he was banned.


I really respect M2K's opinion and agree with him on most things Zelda and Smash in general, but this is one of his few stinkers. He needs to spend a little more time studying counter play to Zelda because it doesn't really differ that much between online and offline.

Don't even get me started on people dodging her either. I get kicked out of arenas constantly, and half the time I don't even get to play before I'm banished.

On the other, I find it ****ing ignorant, that they don't even give me the chance of a single match, at least. This is partly why I'm currently opting to just make my own Arenas, since I can control how many people come in, who to Kick (if they're annoying) and just having a competitive ruleset.

This is why I don't play Arenas much anymore (and I'm too lazy to make my own a lot of the time or am not playing at decent hours). Playing Zelda was the only time I was kicked from an Arena unless it was one of those general ones but they were always packed.

 

[stixie]

Yeah I don't get this either. I VERY RARELY get edge guarded offline. Even by good players. Even by good edge guarding characters. It's incredibly dangerous. Neutral B/Phantom/D Air make edge guarding Zelda VERY tricky.

Actually just the other day I was playing a Byleth in elite smash on a last stock scenario and he thought he'd be cute and fall off nair me off the left side level and I neutral b'd him and he flew TO THE LEFT?!? (how?) and basically instantly died.

I also don't know where M2K is getting the idea you can edgeguard a good Zelda offline without lots of risk either.

THANK YOU!

To put it bluntly I think actual Zelda mains who are good with her are nerfed online because those are the Zelda players who actually use her whole moveset and depend on precision to land things like kicks and tight combos. Not to mention the DP tech becomes harder as well, which is extremely vital to her gameplan.

The ones who spam her B moves are buffed a little, but only because the players they go against are bad and can't punish Nayru's, a move that is like -30 on block.

Seriously I'm so tired of people complaining about her neutral B, calling it "unpunishable" and "lagless". If you really can't punish a move that's THAT unsafe on block idk what to say.

The best part is that pretty much everyone said the move sucked in 4. It's one of her least changed moves in Ult but now it's "annoying and broken". >_>

Don't even get me started on people dodging her either. I get kicked out of arenas constantly, and half the time I don't even get to play before I'm banished.

Personally I think Zelda is high tier OFFLINE....

Online though... Zelda is a million times worse.

I get SOOOOOOOOO salty with people always memeing about wifi Zelda... bro......... get good.

People that play the teleport/neutral b spamming Zelda are 1-3M GSPers and are NOT true Zelda mains.

Zelda's kills (other than teleport) take EXTREME one frame precision and accuracy neither of which can be done online.

My kicks that aren't OOS always feel REALLY lucky online. You just can't time them with the lag. It's difficult to pivot grab, it's difficult to get your down throw up air (because of the lag and buffer system combination that's WAY worse online), it's difficult to fast fall nair, it's difficult to get your up b above ledge (because just a 1 frame miss can send you down to your death), it's difficult to punish laggy options (like ganon down b on your shield), it's difficult to properly land OOS kicks (which should be super easy but the buffer system rolls for you or the kick doesn't come out like you wanted it to) etc. literally this list could go on.

The "wifi zelda" meme is broken and old. It makes no sense unless you suck at the game.

Sorry... salty rant.





EDIT:

I'm editing this with one more issue I've found online. This honestly might be the most egregious of all.

On technical characters that have to input very tight button combinations (such as Zelda or Peach) if one of those inputs gets eaten by lag... you may just literally die.

An example of this is Zelda's Up B. If you're wanting to teleport horizontally to the ledge you have to input the up b FIRST and then roll the control stick to the side (or down if you're teleporting down) and if the online lag eats your initial "up" input you may end up shooting din's fire or building phantom and you fall to your death. When this happens to me I literally want to cancel online immediately (I don't of course). It's absolutely UNACCEPTABLE that they don't have roll back or something other than this laggy mess.

Another words... Zelda is MUCH worse online.

 

[Codebox]

I never got the impression Zelda was better on wifi, its so ironic how she's considered "broken" or "top tier" yet wouldn't she be placing high or winning every online tourneys? I'm a Zelda who's trying to improve his skills from the bad Zeldas (still have a habit of Nayru's panicing when I'm cornered) but really I don't see what makes her so "toxic".

 

[stixie]

I never got the impression Zelda was better on wifi, its so ironic how she's considered "broken" or "top tier" yet wouldn't she be placing high or winning every online tourneys? I'm a Zelda who's trying to improve his skills from the bad Zeldas (still have a habit of Nayru's panicing when I'm cornered) but really I don't see what makes her so "toxic".

Nothing makes her toxic. People just get salty getting teleported into while they're charging Samus' charge shot and trying to camp you out. It's stupid honestly. Also this is the EXACT point I've made many times. If Zelda was a "top tier" online then EVERYONE would be using her and cleaning up. Truth is: she SUCKS because she requires VERY PRECISE spacing and timing for her kicks. Up air is more generous but even online down throw into up air is near impossible because of input lag in combination with the STUPID Ultimate buffer system.

On the "improve his skills" side of things. For neutral b panicking, I think it's something all Zelda players do when they start out. Get to learn her out of shield options. Playing about 10,000 games with this character (no joke) I'd MUCH rather just shield and let them hit my shield.

Fair & Bair both come out on frame 9 out of shield. Up B (at kill percents) comes out on frame 6. Hitting opponents with these moves is SO much better than neutral b as all three of those kill and neutral b does not. Also get used to using her jab. DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE this move!!!!!! Zelda's jab is frame 4 (VERY FAST) and CAN KILL on the ledge. Her jab also hits small characters like pikachu. Seriously, start using this move when people try to get in your face. Most times I'll throw out only one hit of jab to see if it connects before spamming the button. Jab also does an insane amount of damage for a jab.

Also, don't get too over reliant on the Phantom. It's one of the best moves in the game yes but GOOD players will just avoid it altogether. I typically Phantom when I'm edguarding or when I'm trying to get someone off of me (in the latter case I release it early).

Also LEARN Din's Fire. I've lab'd Din's Fire out for hours and hours. If you get really good with aiming that thing and hitting the sweetspot consistently you can take stocks at 60% off the level. It's fantastic.

She has combos and kill setups but those are more advanced. I'd start practicing these things until you get really good at them. If you have any questions feel free to ask me.

 

[Othello-SSBU]

To be fair, even if you whiff phantom, it gets you stage control and conditions your opponents defensive options, so it's not like you lose anything. Also, nayru's love is really good for calling out spot dodge cancels/buffered options on your sheild

 

[Lacrimosa]

Also LEARN Din's Fire. I've lab'd Din's Fire out for hours and hours. If you get really good with aiming that thing and hitting the sweetspot consistently you can take stocks at 60% off the level. It's fantastic.
.

Can't agree more.

Speaking of Din's Fire:
It's one of the best edgeguarding tools in the game. The opponent has to respect it and it forces an airdodge. Even more after the buffs this move received.
Meaning, if you have airdodge early () it will catch them when they're still in endlag of the airdodge.
Granted, some opponents () ignore this move but it's only a handful and they need to get through her ledgetrapping and Ness/Lucas are very weak to Phantom because it 2-frames their recovery consistently if they can't airdodge back.

It's also completely non-committal, meaning Zelda has never to leave the stage and if Din's Fire misses, Zelda still has enough time to charge the Phantom which is a great ledgetrapping tool.

Really great moves that have great synergy when the opponent is off-stage

 

[stixie]

Can't agree more.
Granted, some opponents () ignore this move but it's only a handful and they need to get through her ledgetrapping and Ness/Lucas are very weak to Phantom because it 2-frames their recovery consistently if they can't airdodge back.

The funny thing is: you would not BELIEVE how many times I've killed Ness and Lucas with Din's . Sometimes they just either don't see it coming or panic airdodge forgetting their absorbs. I think it's a psychological thing sometimes because phantom goes right through absorb so they forget which one I'm using during edge guarding situations. It's kinda hilarious.

Now G&W................................ DON'T EVER USE DIN'S AGAINST THAT CHARACTER UNLESS YOU WANT TO DIE A HORRIFIC DEATH!!!!!!

 

[Oz o:]

Now G&W................................ DON'T EVER USE DIN'S AGAINST THAT CHARACTER UNLESS YOU WANT TO DIE A HORRIFIC DEATH!!!!!!

Just tell them to stop Dairing out of habit, unless they want to die at 60-70.

 

[stixie]

Just tell them to stop Dairing out of habit, unless they want to die at 60-70.

Yeah wifi G&Ws basically have this move on a macro LOL.

It's hard to get them to do anything else