How bad is Wario?

[Vengeance_NS]

just got this game and I was a Wario main in brawl. His air mobility nerf seems to make this character so hard to approach zoners and characters with ranged normals. He is need of some serious buffs I feel. I know it's early for a tier list but early on I've seen him bottom 5 on most American list but Japan has him top 10 for some reason. What is everyone's opinion. Is he just under played and thats why he's bad in most people's eyes or is he truly that bad?

 

[fraudster111]

just got this game and I was a Wario main in brawl. His air mobility nerf seems to make this character so hard to approach zoners and characters with ranged normals. He is need of some serious buffs I feel. I know it's early for a tier list but early on I've seen him bottom 5 on most American list but Japan has him top 10 for some reason. What is everyone's opinion. Is he just under played and thats why he's bad in most people's eyes or is he truly that bad?

Dude Im in the same shoes as you. I was a second wario main in brawl and I was at first disgusted by his sm4sh counterpart. However, I've come to find out that there are some pros to the new wario. His cons are obvious if you played him a lot but the pros might not be. I'll do a quick list of what i've found. The cons might be subjective though.

Pros
1. You can bike more often. If you bike on the land off stage you can bike again almost immediately. Keyword being you started on the land. You can't double bike if you started off in the air. You'll only do the wario "Where my bike at?" animation.
2. Bike can kill at double digit percents. When you're in wheelie mode and hit an opponent with the front wheel all the way to his seat. Those spots have great knockback and kill as early as 82%. The trick is to hit people with those parts on the way down. Theres a blueish aura around the front wheel that signifies that knockback. I love surprising people with it.
3. New upsmash is good.
4. Full waft has better knockback than brawls.
5. You can do a quick 1-2 combo with the bike on opponents. If you run into them you can chain that into a wheelie and that does good dmg if they get hit by the first hit.

Cons
1. New fsmash is hard to hit with its long wind up. I miss the superarmor frames of brawl fsmash.
2. You can't wheelie jump from the bike anymore for the super jump. I miss that as well.
3. The lack of fluidity with his aerials. I miss butterflying in and out with dair. Thats almost impossible to do especially since sakurai coded the move stick to be inactive when using c stick. So goodluck trying to space dairs.

That's all I think of right now. I still play him cause of the new bike and he's hilarious as ever.

P.S Is there a list of timers for waft. What percentage does each phase of waft kill or is it the same as in brawl.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

I mean do we think he's even tourney viable or am I wastijg my time and should pick a better character. I'm hoping he gets small buffs maybe to his mobility in the air or make his nair better. I don't want to invest my time into a character who gets mopped by top tiers.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Wario has no kill moves this is what kills his games. Having to rely on a waft or a ftilt just sucks.

 

[WwwWario]

Yes, Wario got some nerfs with worse areal movement, can't pick up bike parts, etc. but he got buffs too

-His Side Tilt seems faster
-Waft feels stronger
-Up Special feels stronger
-The Front Wheel Smash thingy with the Bike is surprisingly powerful
-He won't fall off his bike
-Up Smash is better
-Bite feels faster and better
-Dash Attack can make people trip
-Down Tilt is MUCH better, as you now can use it very fast
-Down Smash is better

Yup, he got some buffs as well. Plus (the change I like the most) - smooth animations. MAN I love his animations in this game. Truly feels like Wario and not Game & Watch as he did in Brawl

 

[Rakurai]

It would've been nice if they'd have addressed his nerfed air speed or the unthrowable bike parts (There's still a tip that says they're throwable in both versions of the game...) in the recent patch.

Either of those would've helped his ability to approach significantly, which is really his only flaw that stands out to me. KOing isn't an issue for me with how freely he can go off-stage to gimp coupled with the waft still being absurdly good. The problem is actually getting close enough to put either into play.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

How does he stack up against the other high tiers tho. Diddy lucario yoshi sheik sonic.

 

[Spinosaurus]

How does he stack up against the other high tiers tho. Diddy lucario yoshi sheik sonic.

imo he doesn't really lose to them but not the best against them either.

Marth and Robin are likely the worst to go up against.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Duck hunt dog???

 

[Rakurai]

Duck Hunt isn't really an issue, since the bike kills his projectile game.

He does have a range advantage on his normals, but they're more punishable then a lot of other high tier candidates like Diddy and Yoshi.

 

[Ceph]

I feel Wario can be good, he just has to be extra careful in certain matchups. I didn't get the same feeling of hopelessness that I got with Olimar.

No offense to Oli mains, he just has a huge disadvantage against rushdown characters

 

[SanAntonioSmasher]

I am having trouble with characters like ZSS that are fast, have good range/priority over wario, and have minimal ending lag.

If I try to be aggressive, they can use their attacks to outrange or they can block or dodge then counter. If I try to be more defensive it is hard to find good spots because of their speed and small windows of time to capitalize on.

Any advice?

 

[Vengeance_NS]

I had a chat with zero last night on Twitter. He seems to think Wario is high tier and could go even higher. Waft is powerful he said. I guess in a 2 stock game having a move that kills early like that is pretty scary. I'm starting to realize now good his bike is as well. Great tool to get in on zoners.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

Wario's pretty damn strong. There's not enough information to make a tier list yet but he surely goes even with most characters, and loses to a few. He'll probably sail mid tier.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Depending on nerfs other characters get and how how strong waft is and how good some of the wario strategies sre he may be high tier or better.

 

[xzx]

I don't think Wario is viable. And by that I mean Mid Middle Tier at best-viable. His nerfs outshine his buffs. Sakurai just ruined every useful tool he had from Brawl - most noticeably his air speed and aerial acceleration. This means that ranged characters are even more evil to Wario. Seriously, it's so sad. Wario lost much power too...

Anyone saying that Wario is high tier material is either biased or doesn't know Wario stats.

 

[Rakurai]

Hopefully, someone comes out of nowhere with him and dominates a tournament with him like Luigi and DK have done recently. I've seen him used maybe once in a US tournament so far.

He seems to be more popular in Japan, though, and is currently listed as B tier alongside Rosalina on their most comprehensive tier list available.

 

[Trieste SP]

He's not bad considering I won my first tourney using Wario. If you are curious the final set was against Diddy.

 

[Geko[FR]]

wario is a beast

 

[Jae55555]

Wario is awesome for his air attacks. Using DI with wario makes him unstoppable. The bike is so powerful, quick, and amazing for recovery. His chomp eats energy projectiles and increases the amount you get healed when eating food items. His waft charges when you eat things that restore HP (IE your bike). His ledge guard is pretty good since his hit angle down. His one two jab has almost no charge time and it launches people upward (setting up more awesome air attacks). You can just confuse people with wario. He is ****ing amazing. The coolest thing is that people don't seem to understand how to counter a good wario.

 

[Digital Limit]

I played a ton of Wario last night and it seems like his approach game is just fair fair fair fair fair. He's kind of dull. And getting punished when trying to punish with fsmash because of its slow start up and horrible end lag is frustrating. Also, his nair hitbox doesn't match the animation. It feels like nair only hits in his belly.

 

[supascoot]

I played a ton of Wario last night and it seems like his approach game is just fair fair fair fair fair. He's kind of dull. And getting punished when trying to punish with fsmash because of its slow start up and horrible end lag is frustrating. Also, his nair hitbox doesn't match the animation. It feels like nair only hits in his belly.

Nair has hitboxes to the top right of Wario at the start and a Belly hitbox near the end of the move. I'd say to stay away from using it unless you know you'll get them with the belly hitbox, as that pops them up quite well. One thing that I havn't seen mentioned on this thread is how good wario is at going deep for kills. Try for offstage wheelie kills and Bairs, as they KO really well at low % (Bair KOs low offstage, I mean)

 

[C4RDIN4L]

Wario is not bad at all. His uair is god-like and his bite is formidable. Yes his air speed is nerfed but having a command grab and waft which can kill so early is such a huge boon if you can use it correctly. As a jiggs main i'd love to have a kill like that that gives super armor, retreats and has such a huge hitbox. Bike can also be used as a great means of approach and a projectile that can catch opponents off guard because of it's speed and makes his recovery amazing as well. his smashes are all strong and his ftilt sets up for them well. a lot of warios neglect how dtilt can set up for fsmash, ftilt or uair as well depending on the % of the opponent. wario is a weird character and harder to get used to but he is great overall.

 

[WarioWaft]

Wario is a very awesome player. I actually feel with the updated mechanics of the game and what not that Wario is Top Tier.
If you know how to use his move set, he's a great troll player that's very effective.

His chomp if timed right can catch people in mid-air during their attack and over cancel a lot of moves.

His bike same story.

The only criticism or inkling I have with Wario is his forward smash takes too long and if you play against great players with great timing it will screw you up. Luckily it's strong enough to push them back a few feet even shielding but I've gotten more knockouts with the headbutt and Waft against strong players than the big punch.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Wario is a very awesome player. I actually feel with the updated mechanics of the game and what not that Wario is Top Tier.
If you know how to use his move set, he's a great troll player that's very effective.

His chomp if timed right can catch people in mid-air during their attack and over cancel a lot of moves.

His bike same story.

The only criticism or inkling I have with Wario is his forward smash takes too long and if you play against great players with great timing it will screw you up. Luckily it's strong enough to push them back a few feet even shielding but I've gotten more knockouts with the headbutt and Waft against strong players than the big punch.

Just kill with ftilt. Ftilt kills at about 120-130 at the edge of the stage. Ftilt is great.

 

[WarioWaft]

Wario is a very awesome player. I actually feel with the updated mechanics of the game and what not that Wario is Top Tier.
If you know how to use his move set, he's a great troll player that's very effective.

His chomp if timed right can catch people in mid-air during their attack and over cancel a lot of moves.

His bike same story.

Just kill with ftilt. Ftilt kills at about 120-130 at the edge of the stage. Ftilt is great.

I've tried that. Problem is my analog seems overly sensitive at times and it ends up going for the big hit. Also, goes for the big hit if an opponent tries to roll behind me and I try to catch them with the ftilt and no cigar.

Also, guys like Megaman don't fly at 120 with ftilt. Megaman is one heavy mofo with that armor on. He does not fly that far with any of Wario's attacks.

 

[WarioWaft]

Yes, Wario got some nerfs with worse areal movement, can't pick up bike parts, etc. but he got buffs too

-His Side Tilt seems faster
-Waft feels stronger
-Up Special feels stronger
-The Front Wheel Smash thingy with the Bike is surprisingly powerful
-He won't fall off his bike
-Up Smash is better
-Bite feels faster and better
-Dash Attack can make people trip
-Down Tilt is MUCH better, as you now can use it very fast
-Down Smash is better

Yup, he got some buffs as well. Plus (the change I like the most) - smooth animations. MAN I love his animations in this game. Truly feels like Wario and not Game & Watch as he did in Brawl

I think the reason they made his animations feel like Game & Watch in Brawl is because they were paying homage to his microgame frame rate. The microgrames on GBA and GC were like awful 8-16bit animations with choppy frame rates, so that's probably why they made Wario carry that "look" and "feel". The movements of animations in those games weren't smooth movements, just the frame rearrangement. That's exactly what it felt like using Wario in Brawl.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

I've tried that. Problem is my analog seems overly sensitive at times and it ends up going for the big hit. Also, goes for the big hit if an opponent tries to roll behind me and I try to catch them with the ftilt and no cigar.

Also, guys like Megaman don't fly at 120 with ftilt. Megaman is one heavy mofo with that armor on. He does not fly that far with any of Wario's attacks.

Set ur c stick for tilts it's amazing for wario. I am finding it's made me so much better.

 

[WarioWaft]

Set ur c stick for tilts it's amazing for wario. I am finding it's made me so much better.

If I do that, does it set the C-Stick to do tilts universally? And does that effect aerial attacks as well?

Like what if I just wanted to do forward tilt only but still keep C-Down and C-Up as their Smash counterparts? Or if I changed it to tilt would it be UTilt,DTilt,Ftilt for the entire C-stick acheme?

 

[WarioWaft]

Had no idea about Special Move customizations in this game.

I may keep the Wario Waft the way it is (I can get 2 in during a 5 minute match fully charged). But I might have to compare the Suction Chomp to normal if it has more range, and check the speeding bike over the regular. The burying bike interests me if it can still bury someone if you kamikaze the bike.

I've learned once you play great players that doing a 180 on the bike is almost suicide. The second you turn they're gonna destroy your bike as your turning or hit you off the bike. If the speeding bike is that much faster when riding + kamikaze'ing I may have to give it a look because I use the bike as a projectile to distract more than expecting contact against great players anyways than the normal to give me a slight advantage and the physics of the burying bike are good I may have to change.

May keep the corkscrew as it is because vertical jumping was never an issue with me.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

If I do that, does it set the C-Stick to do tilts universally? And does that effect aerial attacks as well?

Like what if I just wanted to do forward tilt only but still keep C-Down and C-Up as their Smash counterparts? Or if I changed it to tilt would it be UTilt,DTilt,Ftilt for the entire C-stick acheme?

Air moves are still the same fair bair uair, but on the ground it's ftilt dtilt and uptilt. It makes a big big difference. No more accidental fsmash attacks. I hit my ftilts with precision.

 

[WarioWaft]

Air moves are still the same fair bair uair, but on the ground it's ftilt dtilt and uptilt. It makes a big big difference. No more accidental fsmash attacks. I hit my ftilts with precision.

So just to clarify, if you change the C-Stick to tilt attacks, it's changing them ALL. Like you can't customize just specific Down, Forward, Up separately? It's all or nothing? I don't know if it's worth the risk for me because I don't get opportunities to use down tilt as much against great players since they're usually a foot above the ground hopping, and Wario's utilt has a delay on it and it doesn't smoothly combo like Mario's uppercut.

Down Tilt in particular is the easiest one to do with Analog + A because once you hold it down you can just keep going and going and going. Same for Up Tilt. Forward tilt is the one I accidentally smash too much.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

So just to clarify, if you change the C-Stick to tilt attacks, it's changing them ALL. Like you can't customize just specific Down, Forward, Up separately? It's all or nothing? I don't know if it's worth the risk for me because I don't get opportunities to use down tilt as much against great players since they're usually a foot above the ground hopping, and Wario's utilt has a delay on it and it doesn't smoothly combo like Mario's uppercut.

Down Tilt in particular is the easiest one to do with Analog + A because once you hold it down you can just keep going and going and going. Same for Up Tilt. Forward tilt is the one I accidentally smash too much.

It changes them all.

 

[C4RDIN4L]

ftilt really is great, i use it to kill a lot more often than fsmash. i probably kill most with ftilt, up smash and waft xD after that probably bair and dair. landing waft is just fun and disrespectful tho.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Edge guarding with waft is scary for opponents. That's how i get most my kills to be honest. Bait the air dodge then waft or if the recover low I'll go after them with a waft as they try to go for the ledge. I call it yolo wafting.

 

[WarioWaft]

ftilt really is great, i use it to kill a lot more often than fsmash. i probably kill most with ftilt, up smash and waft xD after that probably bair and dair. landing waft is just fun and disrespectful tho.

How is it disrespectful?

I use it when I have the upper hand. I try to use it to end the match but if I'm playing a very good player who plays excellent defense and it'd be risky for me to go for a smash attack then a Waft is a safe KO attempt on the first KO.

Against great players the matches usually last 4 minutes so I get two Waft attempts.

To connect it in air takes really good timing because if you miss it by a little you won't touch them.

 

[WarioWaft]

Would you say Jigglypuff's rest is disrespectful?

 

[Vengeance_NS]

How is it disrespectful?

I use it when I have the upper hand. I try to use it to end the match but if I'm playing a very good player who plays excellent defense and it'd be risky for me to go for a smash attack then a Waft is a safe KO attempt on the first KO.

Against great players the matches usually last 4 minutes so I get two Waft attempts.

To connect it in air takes really good timing because if you miss it by a little you won't touch them.

I'm telling you get the opponent to like 70-80% usually takes me a minute or so and u can waft and kill them with a waft that's only a minute or so strong. I do it all the time. The opponent doesn't see it coming at all. It's so good. When ur full and blinking opponents play safe and know ur fishing for an opening. Catch them off guard.

 

[WarioWaft]

I'm telling you get the opponent to like 70-80% usually takes me a minute or so and u can waft and kill them with a waft that's only a minute or so strong. I do it all the time. The opponent doesn't see it coming at all. It's so good. When ur full and blinking opponents play safe and know ur fishing for an opening. Catch them off guard.

Absolutely. When they see me flashing they shield more. Best time to hit is high in air. Even ay 80% jf youjust hit them with the head on the way up it can KO.

 

[C4RDIN4L]

Just the fact that you're farting on someone lol. It's not LITERALLY disrespectful, it's just so demoralizing xD