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Houston Smash Ultimate Thread

Gea

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
4,236
Location
Houston, Texas
I agree. All or none. I've seen exactly zero overcentralizing customs so far. Way more help with the speed of the game than hinder it. A few are silly yes, but that's all they are. Silly.

Tesh, I will concede your viewpoint as valid when you come up with a quantifiable criteria that can justify banning one move but not another. Community consensus is not a valid option.
 
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Xyro77

Unity Ruleset Committee Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Messages
17,885
Location
Houston,Tx
Yeah I am gonna give access to a few other people to help advance people in bracket. so no matter what there is someone who you can report too.
 

Teshie U

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
1,594
Speaking of rules, I've come up with a few ways to help speed up TRTTGC2 in December.
1. I am temporarily dropping Pokemon. For right now, it's just for TRTTGC2. The GF of pkmn took 1 hour and only 9 entrants were there all but 1 entered other games too.
2. I'm restricting how many event people can enter. At this next TRTTGC players can only enter 2 events max. You will have to decide between Kart 8, smash 1vs1 and smash 2vs2. Again, like with rule 1, this is a test.
As for the cold. If it does get cold (Tx has seen 80 degree weather in December before lol), there are a few things that will help us.
1. AirBrushKing is bringing a small heater that will be blowing all day.
2. The more set-ups in the room, the more heat will be generated. So the more set-ups we have the more heat/friendlies/MM can happen and the faster we can get out. Warmth+speedy event=tasty.
3. The doors that can be closed WILL be closed. Since it's only kart/smash and both use WiiUs, all games will be inside the main building.
4. Dress warm. It's december. No johns.
What exactly is the point of bringing these games together if you are going to restrict people enterring more than a couple?

Frankly, those are TERRIBLE solutions. I won't pretend to know what happened with Pokemon, but Kart ended VERY quickly even though 2 of the top 4 were in Smash (iggy enterred kart, singles and doubles for smash). The event ran late because you allow too much time to be wasted. You KNOW very well that Iggy/Kadin held up the bracket far less than the people you allow to leave the venue for hours at a time.

Just run Kart alongside doubles on the Wii U (many Smashers have Kart too) and convert your Kart Setups to Smash after its done (Kart is FFA and runs super fast.

Venue opened at 10AM, I got there at 11AM and the place was packed, but registration didn't start until noon (And didnt finish until nearly 1PM). You allow people to leave the venue for food for FAR too long while they are still in events. If you opened registration at 12PM, why did so many people need to spend over an hour eating at 3pm and 4pm. Just tell everyone to eat breakfast before the event and allow a lunch break at 5pm. I know you are a nice guy and friends with alot of people, but people knowing you won't DQ them is ABUSED at all of you events. When I left to eat, I was back in 10 minutes (and I waited until I had been at the venue for 7-8 hours), but I know if I showed up an hour later, you wouldn't have DQed me. You need to be willing to run the event without being emotional for that very reason.

I agree. All or none. I've seen exactly zero overcentralizing customs so far. Way more help with the speed of the game than hinder it. A few are silly yes, but that's all they are. Silly.

Tesh, I will concede your viewpoint as valid when you come up with a quantifiable criteria that can justify banning one move but not another. Community consensus is not a valid option.
I'm only talking about mechanics that break the game. Anything on the level of EDC and MAYBE even Default Oil Panic would overcentralize the metagame into something truly brain dead. Thats fair enough isn't it? Oil Panic DID overcentralize the doubles metagame very quickly. It basically turned the game into super sudden death. Both of those exploit fall into a very small category where the game becomes "first hit wins". No other custom move comes close to what those moves would do to the game if left unchecked.

If Brawl had an option to turn off all "Down B" moves would you remove ALL down specials because of Dimensional Cape? Of course you wouldn't.
 

Gea

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
4,236
Location
Houston, Texas
I'm only talking about mechanics that break the game. Anything on the level of EDC and MAYBE even Default Oil Panic would overcentralize the metagame into something truly brain dead. Thats fair enough isn't it? Oil Panic DID overcentralize the doubles metagame very quickly. It basically turned the game into super sudden death. Both of those exploit fall into a very small category where the game becomes "first hit wins". No other custom move comes close to what those moves would do to the game if left unchecked.
1. No that isn't fair enough, because there are people who still don't agree oil panic should be banned in doubles (they are idiots, but whatever).

2. To go with number one, you haven't set any criteria to cleanly say "here's the line." You're assuming people will know when that line is crossed. People still disagree about stuff like wobbling to this day.

It's far more important to have a consistent ruleset than one with a ton of exceptions because everything is arbitrary. A huge problem I have with how we decide on stagelists is that they are arbitraty as ****. No one agrees to hard rules and thus you have lots of hazy crap and regional differences. Do I think customs should be legal? Right now, yes. Do I see it being healthy to have to start having discussions about banworthiness of every individual move? No. You can bet your ass if one gets banned universally the "genie will be out of the bottle" so to speak.

And Tesh, no B move was banned in Brawl. No individual move has ever been banned for good reason.
 
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Xyro77

Unity Ruleset Committee Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Messages
17,885
Location
Houston,Tx
What exactly is the point of bringing these games together if you are going to restrict people entering more than a couple?
The point is to offer more than smash. But like with WHOBO when people enter every event and are actually good at multiple games, it holds up the bracket. I could have said "only one game/event per player" but i didnt. I did a compromise instead. If it doesnt work or i recieve backlash, ill change it. After all, these first to TGC events are test events. Its ok to test things.

Frankly, those are TERRIBLE solutions. I won't pretend to know what happened with Pokemon, but Kart ended VERY quickly even though 2 of the top 4 were in Smash (iggy enterred kart, singles and doubles for smash). The event ran late because you allow too much time to be wasted. You KNOW very well that Iggy/Kadin held up the bracket far less than the people you allow to leave the venue for hours at a time.
I never said kadin/iggy held up the bracket.
I never said kart took too long.
The event ran long but not late (12:30am isn't late especially for 130 people in the building).
Im eliminating pkmn (this once) to not only help save time but to also not have people outside where it may be cold. I dont know how big pokemon will be so i didnt want to take the chance of including them in with the kart/smashers and it being MEGA packed.

Just run Kart alongside doubles on the Wii U (many Smashers have Kart too) and convert your Kart Setups to Smash after its done (Kart is FFA and runs super fast.
That is the purpose of me keeping kart/smash.

Venue opened at 10AM, I got there at 11AM and the place was packed, but registration didn't start until noon (And didnt finish until nearly 1PM). You allow people to leave the venue for food for FAR too long while they are still in events.
Only Gnes/Razer took too long and they said it was because of traffic or wreck. i cant control that. The rest that "took too long" were actually people who left without telling me they left to get food.

If you opened registration at 12PM, why did so many people need to spend over an hour eating at 3pm and 4pm. Just tell everyone to eat breakfast before the event and allow a lunch break at 5pm.
Again, next to no one told me they went to go eat. By the time i figured it out, i had no idea how long they were gone. To be fair, 90% of this tournament were new people and they probably didnt know the rule of telling me when they go eat. All the brawl gens (like you) told me though. I guess ill have to announce the rule at events every single time now.

I know you are a nice guy and friends with alot of people, but people knowing you won't DQ them is ABUSED at all of you events. When I left to eat, I was back in 10 minutes (and I waited until I had been at the venue for 7-8 hours), but I know if I showed up an hour later, you wouldn't have DQed me. You need to be willing to run the event without being emotional for that very reason.
Its not me being emotional. its me being nice/fair. As much as you complain, if i ever DQed you for doing what you say i should do to others i guarantee you would be PISSED and type out Bibles worth of text here on SWF. I think what you should take away from all of this is that we went through all of that and still got out at 12:30 meaning it could have been worse. Oh and by the time you got home, the time changed happen and you got an extra hour of sleep.


Seriously though, i learned alot from the 3ds event and have made adjustments. All the ones i mentioned earlier WILL help speed up things. if its not enough, ill adjust further in time for the real TGC in Feb. Again, these 1st 2 events are tests and are all meant to be learning experiences.
 

Teshie U

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
1,594
1. No that isn't fair enough, because there are people who still don't agree oil panic should be banned in doubles (they are idiots, but whatever).

2. To go with number one, you haven't set any criteria to cleanly say "here's the line." You're assuming people will know when that line is crossed. People still disagree about stuff like wobbling to this day.

It's far more important to have a consistent ruleset than one with a ton of exceptions because everything is arbitrary. A huge problem I have with how we decide on stagelists is that they are arbitraty as ****. No one agrees to hard rules and thus you have lots of hazy crap and regional differences. Do I think customs should be legal? Right now, yes. Do I see it being healthy to have to start having discussions about banworthiness of every individual move? No. You can bet your *** if one gets banned universally the "genie will be out of the bottle" so to speak.

And Tesh, no B move was banned in Brawl. No individual move has ever been banned for good reason.
I dont know enough about wobbling to challenge you there. But, just like EDC, its something we didn't have the tools to control previously. People did agree on EDC limitations. It was banned or severely limited EVERYWHERE that held major tournaments. Oil Panic + Thunder was banned in some way everywhere I've seen a tournament for Smash 4.

I'm very liberal on this type of thing and I know it will be just like stagelists. If you go from Houston to Japan, I'm sure the stage list and the move list would be very different. I don't see a problem with that.

I guarantee you if a custom move lets you turn intangible for an unlimited amount of time, people will want that move banned. Being able to remove a single move from the game is loads better than having a vague rule that you can't stall or can't press buttons a certain way.


@ Xyro, I've seen you DQ randoms that didn't show up for matches. You DO show special treatment to people you know/top players even if they cause a problem. Do NOT let people hold up the bracket at all. If you told me "no, you cant leave you will hold up the bracket", I would just ask someone to bring food back for me. Bwett didn't just stop the recording setup and leave when he was hungry and niether did you.

If you enforce your rules, yes people might be upset at first because you have been lenient for so long, but they will adapt and being effienct will make the whole environment better for everyone.

Going after Pokemon and Kart first is a bad move because you have bigger issues. Kart is a FFA single elimination game with rounds that take 12-15 minutes each.
 

Gea

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
4,236
Location
Houston, Texas
Tesh, you've failed to answer my question. Where do you draw the line? Give me a hard rule.
 
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Teshie U

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
1,594
As I said, with ANY rule, the line gets drawn differently for every person/region.

My line is when the game is simplified to so few interactions that its the same, or nearly the same as sudden death. Unlimited intangibility means as soon as you land 1 hit and gain the lead, you can essentially exit the game and no longer be at even the slightest risk.

Oil Panic/Thunder is an OHKO that doesn't require you to interact with your opponent at all before or after. Frankly, doubles is a different beast, as you can't actually avoid things because TA can be abused to charge counters/absorbs that essentially invalidate everything. Its also just a side event and criteria comes down to fun.

Stalling and literally unbeatable options (oil panic beats shields, rolls, attacks, RESPAWN INVINCIBILITY etc.) remove actually interacting with your opponent.
 

Teshie U

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
1,594
Yes, that is an issue. I'm just upset that you would sacrifice people being able to enter multiple events before you even consider enforcing your own DQ rules.

@ Gea, to add to that. I do feel over-centralization is a fair criteria for the community to consider. But the game is far too new to call anything over-centralized.
 

Xyro77

Unity Ruleset Committee Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Messages
17,885
Location
Houston,Tx
DQ people is usually taken personal and with anger or with a "that's unfair" attitude. This causes people to Not return.

Not doing an event that has extremely low turn out benifits in more areas than a few DQs.
 

UltimateRazer

Smash Champion
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
2,989
Location
Houston, TX
Alright so tomorrow is Friday. Last day to confirm with me. I have ONE more spot in my carpool to the Dallas Smash 4 monthly this weekend. It'd be $20 for gas, we'd leave Saturday morning and return Sunday morning/afternoon. You must also shower (deal with it). Any takers?
 

Teshie U

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
1,594
DQ people is usually taken personal and with anger or with a "that's unfair" attitude. This causes people to Not return.

Not doing an event that has extremely low turn out benifits in more areas than a few DQs.
Its only personal when you don't enforce it for everyone. If you DQ me for leaving for an hour but I see you don't do the same to Gnes or Razer, then it IS personal.

.
 

z00ted

The Assault of Laughter ﷼
Joined
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Messages
10,800
ALL THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS:


NO ITEMS, SHEIK ONLY, OMEGA TORTIMER ISLAND (KAPP'N'S SONG)
 

Xyro77

Unity Ruleset Committee Member
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Messages
17,885
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Houston,Tx
Already played melee for 7 years straight and off and on during brawl. So sick of melee.
 

RT

Smash Hero
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Super Smash Bros...MELEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
 

Xyro77

Unity Ruleset Committee Member
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Aug 25, 2003
Messages
17,885
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Houston,Tx
Zori, add all the Nintendo IDs on the OP. It will auto invite everybody. Also, what's your ID so I can add it to the OP?
 

TheJerm

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
2,392
Location
Route 23
Doubles first, two stocks, custom moves on. Problems solved

The game will "die" in the same time with or without custom moves. But if we start with custom moves, it'll be easier to take them away if its some sort of problem, than to try and add them in later on.

Melee, Bjork, One Piece da bess
 

RT

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Just 14 more days until the darkness is at an end. I fear it will be too late by then for some people's thumb pads. RIP
 

RT

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Supposedly the game starts out with 323 songs and the game supposedly has 500+ songs? That's a lot of time spent collecting those CDs. They better not dupe, because dear god...
 

Leaf.

Gets up to speed!
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Dang I went to Dallas :(

RT

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Yes, all Platinum games need you to git gud if you are motivated enough to get Pure Platinum on the hardest difficulties. Of course, you can stay casual and settle for stone awards if you want.
 
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Xyro77

Unity Ruleset Committee Member
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It's... it's beautiful. *sniff*

@Trela: How did the invitational go? I didn't get to watch until the Grand Finals, but it looks like you got knocked out fairly early? Was the competition that fierce?

Less fierce, more wifi. The worst way to play smash.
 

Xyro77

Unity Ruleset Committee Member
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Messages
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Yes, all Platinum games need you to git gud if you are motivated enough to get Pure Platinum on the hardest difficulties. Of course, you can stay casual and settle for stone awards if you want.
I may go back and try for at least silver later but I gotta beat Bayo 2 before WatchDogs and smash 4.
 
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