Holy crap japan... haha wow.

[lazychi]

Theyre ok but they mainly look fast and so it looks like theyre good. Alot of US players can do the same but they tend to be safer. However you might want to look into some of the more aggressive players you will see them play at the same speed. Check for yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgc3er21ilk

Germ (Wolf) is able to play at a similar speed and still maintains his spacing while keeping the pressure on the enemy. Im not saying US is better or anything, just that speed isnt everything and that 2 players dont represent the entire country

 

[Yuna]

Heh, I'm going to generalize, becasue it's true. Most asian gamers are better at the games they specialize in than their American counter-parts, I'm sorry.

Or not.

Asian Competitive gamers just have a generally more serious attitude towards gaming than the average American Competitive gamer. They put in more time and dedication into their craft. The Top Echelon, however, do not crush the Top Echelon of Europe or the US or something.

There are fewer Competitive gamers in Japan and those fewer are generally very serious. In the US, there are a lot of Competitive gamers... however, not many of these put down enough time to become "very good".

But the Top Japanese Player in XX-game will not crush the Top American Player in XX-game.

Yuna my point was that you haven't played those people. Not many people have, as you said. And from the sounds of it you think you're much better than them.

I can tell from the video that they leave themselves open... a lot. I never said I'm much better than them. I said they leave themselves open a lot all the while not punishing the other when they leave themselves open properly.

I'll ask another more pertinent question: do you think you could beat those players?

If they play the way they play in that game and the Marth vs. Peach one linked through it, yes, I most certainly do. So much unsafe stuff going back and forth! And as Pye pointed out, whether or not I can beat them doesn't change the fact that while their playstyles are flashy, they leave themselves wide open for most of the game.

Anyone who knows how Brawl works can see that. And we can point it out, even if we cannot beat them. You don't have to be able to do something as well as something else in order to criticize them when they make mistakes.

Coaches are rarely better than their protegés at the sports they coach them in.

 

[RBNuke]

Yuna, give it up. 07-08 members will think what they want no matter what we say.

Xyro, give it up. 07-08 members are going to rightly ignore you because you come off as exclusive and annoying.

I'll readily agree with Yuna when I, uh, agree with him. For instance, on these characters shorthopping bairs and sex kicks as punishment when they should have been using ground smashes or other things.

 

[WhoseReality?]

in some of the other matches they are just obviously 10x worse.

 

[kamekasu]

in some of the other matches they are just obviously 10x worse.

Which videos, exactly?

 

[Cerozero]

That video was terrible. I can't understand why that Fox was able to grab Falco out of a drill, that really shouldn't happen, and no SHLs Falco? Rly?

 

[pingu]

you are an idiot
stop jumping on the 'they suck' bandwagon.
i'm nearly certain you can't play nearly as well as they do
the reasons why they aren't good aren't because fox was able to grab falco out of a drill, that's the entire FUKCING POINT of shieldgrabbing.
the falco didn't need SHL because of the nature of his aggressive approach. you obviously don't get why they aren't good, but read the posts of people who are actually GOOD and then just guessed what made them bad

 

[Cerozero]

you are an idiot
stop jumping on the 'they suck' bandwagon.
i'm nearly certain you can't play nearly as well as they do
the reasons why they aren't good aren't because fox was able to grab falco out of a drill, that's the entire FUKCING POINT of shieldgrabbing.
the falco didn't need SHL because of the nature of his aggressive approach. you obviously don't get why they aren't good, but read the posts of people who are actually GOOD and then just guessed what made them bad

I know what I am talking about I play both Fox and Falco and if you are playing anyone decent (hell, try that with LVl 9 cpu Fox. )you cant get away with that, and whats not aggressive about the SHL? Also, don't assume I suck guy just because I have a low post count I have been lurking on these boards for around 3 years and was pretty good at Melee.

 

[kamekasu]

The only time either player grabbed somebody out of a D-air was when they shieldgrabbed. That's the point of a shieldgrab. The lack of SHL was a strategic choice, instead there was aggressive down B. I'm not saying that it was a good strategic choice.

 

[Cerozero]

The only time either player grabbed somebody out of a D-air was when they shieldgrabbed. That's the point of a shieldgrab. The lack of SHL was a strategic choice, instead there was aggressive down B. I'm not saying that it was a good strategic choice.

Players who aren't very good make not so good strategic choices, also I am not trying to start a flame war I just wanted to state my observation based on my habits and what I have seen work.

 

[ShaolinAce]

That was impressive but not that Hardcore.

 

[Cerozero]

That was impressive but not that Hardcore.

I think thats what I was trying to say.

 

[pingu]

your choice of words was pretty bad
"that video was terrible"
and then you pointed out two things that actually weren't that bad about the video
shieldgrabbing is the sign of a GOOD player, not a bad player.

 

[Cerozero]

I was talking about how Falco shouldn't have fallen for that obvious trap. he did nothing to avert his fate, it's like he was asleep behind the wheel. He should have rolled away at least once when he had the chance but due his overly aggressive play style he stayed put and opened himself up for a lot of punishment multiple times. Even though he ended up winning. I guess its all relative.

 

[Pyr0]

They look really flashy but a lot of times they could have shieldgrabbed and they didnt. and I mean A LOT of times.

 

[blackanese]

LMFAO i hope the people that were amazed by this video were joking

 

[mariofanpm12]

way to ruin this for me... i was inspired.

i dont think its lightning brawl mode, but...

 

[Nasanieru]

3/4 of everyone ITT have most likely never played advanced Melee. (in b4 Brawl=/=Melee nonsense)

This is a spacie battle, 2 characters with good speed who excel at close quarters combat, of course its gonna look fast (reflectors, camping not effective in this matchup). Now if one of these characters were a Snake or R.O.B., for example, you'd be singing a different song altogether.

They weren't bad, but not outstanding either. There were alot of times in the match where they could have ruined each other with a grab setup or a quick smash attack but did a N-air or reflector instead.

Originally Posted by blackanese
LMFAO i hope the people that were amazed by this video were joking

I sure hope so.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

I tried to direct people towards better matches, but it seems people are still set on the Fox vs. Falco match.

 

[[TSON]]

What the heck happened on 0:56-0:57? O_O

 

[Yuna]

i'm nearly certain you can't play nearly as well as they do

One must not be able to perform as well as someone else in order to criticize them.

the falco didn't need SHL because of the nature of his aggressive approach. you obviously don't get why they aren't good, but read the posts of people who are actually GOOD and then just guessed what made them bad

We didn't guess. We can blatantly tell. It's not even that hard. If you can't tell that they're making basic mistakes left and right (a lot of it is playing it as if it were Melee), then you, sir, do not know much about this game.

your choice of words was pretty bad
"that video was terrible"
and then you pointed out two things that actually weren't that bad about the video
shieldgrabbing is the sign of a GOOD player, not a bad player.

Getting shieldgrabbed a lot is the sign of a bad player. And you don't have to be good to be able to shieldgrab, it's not like it's very hard.

I tried to direct people towards better matches, but it seems people are still set on the Fox vs. Falco match.

There's also the Marth vs. Peach one of the same people... in which Peach floats only twice other than for recovery reasons... and one of those times, he just floats there... and gets tippered Fsmashed by Marth... and Marth falls for Dthrow to U-tilt at least five times, some of these times at quite high percentages... even though you can easily escape it (and he did twice)! Peach Daired only once (while recovering). And she tried to punish with Fsmash several times... after a spotdodge.

Needless to say, that match might look fast and impressive to someone who doesn't know better but to me, not so much.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

There's also the Marth vs. Peach one of the same people... in which Peach floats only twice other than for recovery reasons... and one of those times, he just floats there... and gets tippered Fsmashed by Marth... and Marth falls for Dthrow to U-tilt at least five times, some of these times at quite high percentages... even though you can easily escape it (and he did twice)! Peach Daired only once (while recovering). And she tried to punish with Fsmash several times... after a spotdodge.

Needless to say, that match might look fast and impressive to someone who doesn't know better but to me, not so much.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=T-IN-ydEVt8 - What about this video? I shouldn't have posted the Ness vs. Peach one, because it got people off on a tangent, but this particular video features two powerful characters, and it seems to have more skill than the video that started this thread. Is there something I'm missing from this as well?

 

[Yuna]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=T-IN-ydEVt8 - What about this video? I shouldn't have posted the Ness vs. Peach one, because it got people off on a tangent, but this particular video features two powerful characters, and it seems to have more skill than the video that started this thread. Is there something I'm missing from this as well?

These are probably entirely different people playing.

I have made no judgements on overall Japanese skill over than that there are just fewer Japanese Competitive Smash Players, but most of those players put down more time to become good than their American counterpart (which has tons more players, but this also brings with it many who aren't really that good).

I have only made judgements on the skill levels of these two specific players.

I did watch that specific Olimar vs. Meta-Knight vid yesterday and they both fell for weird stuff. And their DI was sub-par (which is lethal for Olimar, as that last stock proves).

 

[ZodiakLucien]

faster than US? I wouldnt say that, but regardless that is an interesting match to watch. It's cool to watch how styles from different regions develop differently.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

I'm not going to claim Japan > America or that they don't make mistakes. I'm saying, "Why are we watching this particular video over and over? There are other videos people can watch and ultimately criticize."

Still, I love their ability to space themselves like that. It's not something I see in a lot of American videos.

 

[linkw00t]

Not impressed, cool looking match though. GG japan. NEXT.

 

[Spidah]

Or not.

Asian Competitive gamers just have a generally more serious attitude towards gaming than the average American Competitive gamer. They put in more time and dedication into their craft. The Top Echelon, however, do not crush the Top Echelon of Europe or the US or something.

There are fewer Competitive gamers in Japan and those fewer are generally very serious. In the US, there are a lot of Competitive gamers... however, not many of these put down enough time to become "very good".

But the Top Japanese Player in XX-game will not crush the Top American Player in XX-game.

Ever heard of warcraft 3 or starcraft ? xD

Just give me 5 top american players that rank in the world's top 20 best players in both SC and WC3 wich are by far with CS the most competitive games in esport history worldwide.

Oh you can't ? that's ok because in SC there were only 2 pro european players being the french player Elky and the danish Grrrr if I'm correct, and for america there were none ;(

And the wc3 scene ? Well except for Grubby and ToD, its an only asian scene, sorry for that again, with mostly chineese and koreans breaking the 280 max apm europeans usually have to get to 340 + in general. (apm being actions per minutes).

Kthxbai ?

 

[Yuna]

I'm not going to claim Japan > America or that they don't make mistakes. I'm saying, "Why are we watching this particular video over and over? There are other videos people can watch and ultimately criticize."

Still, I love their ability to space themselves like that. It's not something I see in a lot of American videos.

I have. And I did (watch and criticize other Japanese videos).

And also, the reason why you don't see a lot of spacing in American videos is because there are so many of them. With a large number of Competitive players and large number of videos of said players, there's bound to be tons of videos of lower-level Competitive play, in which spacing is not necessarily present. Go watch Azen and Mew2King for proper spacing in American videos.

Ever heard of warcraft 3 or starcraft ? xD

Just give me 5 top american players that rank in the world's top 20 best players in both SC and WC3 wich are by far with CS the most competitive games in esport history worldwide.

Oh you can't ? that's ok because in SC there were only 2 pro european players being the french player Elky and the danish Grrrr if I'm correct, and for america there were none ;(

And the wc3 scene ? Well except for Grubby and ToD, its an only asian scene, sorry for that again, with mostly chineese and koreans breaking the 280 max apm europeans usually have to get to 340 + in general. (apm being actions per minutes).

Kthxbai ?

There are always games where a certain region has very few Competitive gamers. Doesn't mean that overall, the region kicks every other region's behinds in videogaming. RTS:es are huge in Asia. In the West? Not so much (on a Competitive level).

With tons of Asians playing Warcraft 3 and Starcraft, of course the number of top ranked players will be disproportionately Asian. 40 Asian players vs. 5 American players. Unless the 5 American players are better than 35 of the Asian players, none of them will make the Top10. It's simple math and logic.

There's a tiny amount of Competitive Japanese smashers. And I don't think the rest of Asia even plays Smash Competitively. Must mean Japan sucks at Smash since no matter how many Asian Competitive Smashers they throw at us, we can throw at least thrice the amount of players back at them of roughly the same skill level or above!

Asians do not auto-beat Westerners. Certain games having a disproportionate amount of Asian "pros" does not mean Asians beat Western behind in every single or even most games.

Also, I'm Asian.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

I have. And I did (watch and criticize other Japanese videos).

But others are obviously not. I wanted to shift the thread away from a single video.

And also, the reason why you don't see a lot of spacing in American videos is because there are so many of them. With a large number of Competitive players and large number of videos of said players, there's bound to be tons of videos of lower-level Competitive play, in which spacing is not necessarily present. Go watch Azen and Mew2King for proper spacing in American videos.

Alright. You should be telling, really, everyone in this thread (not just me) to watch said videos, so that we can learn from them.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i would absolutely LOVE to watch these guys get ravaged by a lazy snake main.

seriously.

then maybe everyone would calm down and stop going "ooooo pretty colors" when they see "fast" videos.
to make matters worse it's from japan so it's 'automatically better' in the minds of scrubs.

*sigh* i was there once...

i'm glad i'm not now.

 

[Spidah]

Asians do not auto-beat Westerners. Certain games having a disproportionate amount of Asian "pros" does not mean Asians beat Western behind in every single or even most games.

I really do agree with that, but in my RTS example, its not like europeans haven't tried to nuke the asians during all theses past years, but even the top level euro can't match the top level asian, the difference is just too big, its insane. If the top players matched their skills, it would be reassuring, but they are miles away from our skills in some games, and trust me, a guy like ToD who's a real programer sponsored by mouze atm and really spends his entire time playing WC3 just can't match Lyn or Lucifer's skill who are both asians.

Is there magic in this ? I don't have a ****ing clue, and in terms of training, all of these guys play like 8hours / day min to train their micro / macro management, being euro or asian, asians still own the place in RTS.

But BTW, if you say that RTS's aren't developed in the west you are wrong, SC and WC3 are two of the three most played games in the electronic sports world at pro level, america just sux at it, period. You guys still have regular sports anw where you own the house so its ok, can't be god everywhere.

Edit : oh and btw, I really think that this asian smash video sucked hard, I don't want to be thought of as someone who idealises asian players in every single game, but in the most competitive, they really kick ***, and I do beleive that it takes more skills to play an RTS than smash bros at a verry high level so there's nothing to boast about america being able to throw hundreads of pro smashers at asia. They have the sponsors, they have the cash, they have the fame.

 

[Yuna]

Edit : oh and btw, I really think that this asian smash video sucked hard, I don't want to be thought of as someone who idealises asian players in every single game, but in the most competitive, they really kick ***, and I do beleive that it takes more skills to play an RTS than smash bros at a verry high level so there's nothing to boast about america being able to throw hundreads of pro smashers at asia. They have the sponsors, they have the cash, they have the fame.

Sponsors, dash and fame does not automatically mean "more skill". In the US, American footballers and baseball players get tons and tons of all of that. I don't play golf, but I'd wager a lot of money on that golf takes a lot more "skill" (since it requires precision).

Competitive fighting games and competitive RTS:es are entirely different things and utilize different kinds of "skill".

Also, as I've already mentioned, dedication and time spent training plays a huge part. The Asian "pros" train more. And just because the Asians dominate RTS:es doesn't mean there's a magic Asian RTS-gene. Maybe the world's best players just happen to be Asian.

I think, like, 5 out of 6 gold medalists for figure skating in 2008 were Russian. Is there a Russian figure skating gene? X, Y and Z players are the best 3 players at RTS in the world. They just happened to be born in Asia (with Asian heritage).

Because at any time, there's gotta be a few players that can be considered "the best". They can be scattered all over the world or concentrated disproportionately. Doesn't necessarily mean geography matters.

 

[Spidah]

Sponsors, dash and fame does not automatically mean "more skill". In the US, American footballers and baseball players get tons and tons of all of that. I don't play golf, but I'd wager a lot of money on that golf takes a lot more "skill" (since it requires precision).

Competitive fighting games and competitive RTS:es are entirely different things and utilize different kinds of "skill".

Also, as I've already mentioned, dedication and time spent training plays a huge part. The Asian "pros" train more. And just because the Asians dominate RTS:es doesn't mean there's a magic Asian RTS-gene. Maybe the world's best players just happen to be Asian.

I think, like, 5 out of 6 gold medalists for figure skating in 2008 were Russian. Is there a Russian figure skating gene? X, Y and Z players are the best 3 players at RTS in the world. They just happened to be born in Asia (with Asian heritage).

Because at any time, there's gotta be a few players that can be considered "the best". They can be scattered all over the world or concentrated disproportionately. Doesn't necessarily mean geography matters.

Ok nice reasoning, good point, I agree with you.

At least that's the most developped and rational pov I've seen in this entire thread.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

wow screwed this post up... ignore.

 

[Yuna]

Alright, so we have found many things wrong with their play-style. Can anyone point out anything good? Surely there must be SOMETHING we can take from all this.

As already stated, spacing and timing.

 

[z3r0C0oL]

Match is fun to watch.
They have a different playstyle, thats all. Not all Falco players like to laser spam.

It looks like they are having a blast playing this match and having a great time.

Everyone here is just thinking of ways that they could have won the match, the players are thinking of ways to use the characters and have fun.

I like their play style as opposed to the more campy US style that I usually see and tends to be boring to watch.

 

[Yuna]

Match is fun to watch.
They have a different playstyle, thats all. Not all Falco players like to laser spam.

It's their prejorative to play the way they want to.

It looks like they are having a blast playing this match and having a great time.

Everyone here is just thinking of ways that they could have won the match, the players are thinking of ways to use the characters and have fun.

Again, their prejorative.

The OP and the many posts that followed it failed, though, when they claimed these players embodied some kind of higher level of Competitive Brawl never before seen in the West and how great this match was. No, just no.

I like their play style as opposed to the more campy US style that I usually see and tends to be boring to watch.

You can either have fun and be creative and leave gaping holes for punishment or you can play it safe, campy and win.

 

[z3r0C0oL]

I like to win by having fun, being creative, and as a result, i may leave some holes in my play.

Its a lot more satisfying to ME, beating a campy or chain grab happy player by being creative and having a lot of fun.

To me, i think its a sign of weakness. If i can be ahead with a lower tier character and the other player then decides to start chain grabbing, i feel it shows desperation to win and that I am a better player then they are for not having to resort to controversial techniques to win a match.



To me, its about playing a good clean match and being a good sport. Not just winning.

Just my $ .02

 

[Zankoku]

I like to win by having fun, being creative, and as a result, i may leave some holes in my play.

Its a lot more satisfying to ME, beating a campy or chain grab happy player by being creative and having a lot of fun.

To me, i think its a sign of weakness. If i can be ahead with a lower tier character and the other player then decides to start chain grabbing, i feel it shows desperation to win and that I am a better player then they are for not having to resort to controversial techniques to win a match.



To me, its about playing a good clean match and being a good sport. Not just winning.

Just my $ .02

That's because there's no money on the line. If I were good enough to beat a bunch of random people with a low tier character, and the character were fun, I'd do that. If I were good enough with a high tier character to win $200+ at a tournament, I wouldn't stick with the low tier in the tournament just because it's more "fun." Hence the reason why friendlies are rarely useful for gauging player skill.

 

[-Ran]

i would absolutely LOVE to watch these guys get ravaged by a lazy snake main.

seriously.

Funny thing actually, my Girlfriend was watching the video with me, after reading the first post. She simply said, "Snake would **** them." Pro insight from someone who just watches. [Though, she IS learning how to play now. =p]