Holy Crap I got Gayed by Marth (link is up) - critique fundamental flaws plz

[linkmastersword]

Alright, so I was in this crew battle between two close colleges in VA. William and Mary, Old Dominion, and Christopher Newport University... all with in 45 minutes of eachother.

so we had an intercollegiate crew battle, CNU vs ODU was the main event. CNU team has superior players, ODU has several good players but 1 fantastic marth (I'd say nearly as good as KM, you'll see) I've played M2K, KM, Husband and Chillin's marth in friendlies and I have performed better than I did against Ether

I am very confident against marth, so after he ***** one of our crew members, I stepped in. It was more like I JUMPED in to the ****.

anyways here's what I am getting to

I've watched the fight and I STILL can't see many mistakes that I made, clearly the problem is DI, and what I do after he d throws me, as well as how to approach with out getting sucked in to the forward b or Fair

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zIGsB4Ym3o

 

[Devilution]

always....ALWAYS DI away from a dthrow, or else face the wrath of the tipper.

lemme guess...he camped edge...waited for you to come dashdanced a bit grabbed with his broken grab range and then dthrow to tipper/dtilt edgeguard.

 

[Zenjamin]

/sigh

the OP already said he has played some of the best marths in the world.

and DIing away from a Dthrow makes it more likely for you to get Tipped aganst a pro marth as they can just WD in tip range. where as (at some presents) DIing down is much more safe.

rule of thumb, dont give general advice to someone who is better then you. epically if you havent even seen his vid.

 

[linkmastersword]

lol don't get me wrong... I got three stocked by m2k and chillin but I felt like I had some control over my character and decisions, I got 1-2 stocked by husband and km, husband was a mm.

and thanks zenjamin, I def don't think I'm better than anyone, I just want to know how to not get gayed like I did. sorry, I still don't have the link up, my friend should be putting it up soon

 

[Devilution]

lol I was being a bit sarcastic there...sorry for the confusion.

also I do know he is better than me....

 

[Pyrostormer]

Fats is the ****.
Alright?
To good
So so good.
XD
But yeah, I hate the Marth Match-up because of F-Smash, D-tilt, Up-tilt, Ever single grab and move of his... I always stick with my Main, Dr. Mario, against Marth.

 

[MattDotZeb]

I can see a bunch of mistakes....

But this was a VERY entertaining match! So who cares? XD

 

[Betrayed]

You got read like a book mate.

 

[sagemoon]

I'm a marth player but i can tell you what went wrong in this vid. You were way too overly defensive. This marth wasnt very agressive until the last 2 stocks or so. (you started to do better there also). Another thing i noticed was lack of grabs. As a marth player I hate both grabs and fairs outta the shield.

But yeah the biggest thing was that you were overly defensive. That only works if the other player is agressive (prolly a reason why you did better vs the pro players)

 

[Clouded Reason]

I paused after watching the first 2 lives. Here's what I have to say (as someone that uses Ganon frequently)

1. Agreed with the "too defensive" comment, more specifically in the fact that you had some rolling that was not very necessary at all. Ganon's roll is good, but a fast marth can make it worthless.

2. Some of your Air moves were mis-shuffled, and you were punished. (not fast falled, not L cancelled, etc)

3. He "read you like a book". . . guess what? out of about the 20 times you were on the ground, you did a standard, usually attacking, get up. . . i counted about 1 time when you didnt. Always switch it up, Always mindgame, even on things as "dumb" as recovery.

4. When you're doing the air-dodge onto the level to avoid big dumb sword damage, always wait till you see him start to swing. You air dodged prematurely, and like anything done prematurely, it just wasn't good enough and he waited for you to um. . . finish before he punished you. haha.

5. Please try to D.I. more. This one's hard to "criticize", but the truth is, a bunch of the time there was no D.I. when he hit you, and well, thats just easy combo set up. This also falls under the "mindgame" category. In Marth's case, always try to DI away. . . a lot of those sword combos could have been avoided.

6. As some advice, if he misses a move and you're blocking, a great way to get in on marth is Block->wavedash->grab/double neutral A poke. wavedashing out of the block is a godsend for ganon.

You were doing some advanced tech/things which could be good mindgames when he was dead, but very few were incorporated into your fighting, which was for the most part very direct. Have confidence in your ability to trick your opponent. The few times when you did really helped your situation in the match.

 

[XtacyfalcoX]

Well... seems like you make a lot of the same mistakes I do. Spacing, being predictable, not always edgeguarding, being above Marth. That guy was quite good though.

 

[Linguini]

Alright, so I was in this crew battle between two close colleges in VA. William and Mary, Old Dominion, and Christopher Newport University... all with in 45 minutes of eachother.

so we had an intercollegiate crew battle, CNU vs ODU was the main event. CNU team has superior players, ODU has several good players but 1 fantastic marth (I'd say nearly as good as KM, you'll see) I've played M2K, KM, Husband and Chillin's marth in friendlies and I have performed better than I did against Ether

I am very confident against marth, so after he ***** one of our crew members, I stepped in. It was more like I JUMPED in to the ****.

anyways here's what I am getting to

I've watched the fight and I STILL can't see many mistakes that I made, clearly the problem is DI, and what I do after he d throws me, as well as how to approach with out getting sucked
in to the forward b or Fair

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zIGsB4Ym3o

Alright, I watched the video and this guy is pretty good but he's not quite on KM or M2k's level. He's ok against ganon but I saw alot of mistakes. Ima comment on them as I watch the match.

When he throws you switch up your teching, you were getting nervous and using the getting up attack too much which he read and punished with a forward b.

He was SPAMMING forward b, shield that and make sure you wait till the last hit is over then grab, forward b=free grab

I know the spike can get tedious when your recovering, do not attempt to come up on the side of him, marths spike has obscene range on ganons up b so come from below to have a chance of teching.

What he was doing was nairing through your shield which is what most marths do that know how to fight ganon, you attempted to shield grab and got hit by the nair almost every time. Instead stay in your shield and wait for his nair to finish then come out of your shield with a bair when he lands.

I saw wayyyy to many patterns in your style, the constant short hop fairs dont work very well against spacey marths. Double jump to dodge the sword and fair or full jump then fair. Bair can really keep marth off your **** so its important to switch them up(double bairs, double jump bair, full jump bair)

Grabs- One of ganons main advantage vs marht is his grab. When marth di's up make sure to u smash or fair. Sometimes just running up to marth and waiting for his aerial will land you a grab .Or you can run up and sheild then uair out of your shield

The last thing is the lack of ground game, use f tilts wisely in this matchup. forward b is god against marth and can be used alot after marth fair or nairs while you are dashdancing.d-tilt owns marths short hop fairs and nairs.

Well good luck,play him again and tell me how it went, this stuff that I told you works(marth is one of my best 3 matchups) so just try to integrate them in your game.
EDIT- I read some of the posts in this thread and its not very good advice,take it from someone who knows alot about marth.

 

[Lambchop's c0ck]

lol at this post. wtf!?!?....free grab?!?!

 

[CluelessBTD]

Marth is quite upsetting. I got gayed by a Marth at a smashfest last night (not without pounding him for a while at least). It is just really hard to get through his shell. His side-B can interrupt so many of Ganon's moves when they always DD away and pivot it for perfect spacing.

 

[Lambchop's c0ck]

linguini ***** marth ask him how to grab them marths

 

[Frozenserpent]

Just wanted to say this one thing. A couple times you were on the ledge, and marth was recovering diagonally below you. In such a case, you can drop from ledge and instantly do a uair. This will hit the marth, killing him, and you can recover. I find it really effective against marth if they try to recover from below.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

That wasn't getting gayed, that was getting flat out pwned. Uair edgeguard moar plz.

Good stuff Ether.

 

[alphameric]

i ****ing hate marths.
however, i find waveland -> grab/forward-b or spaced ftilt works pretty awesome

 

[Kimosabae]

Okay, as a Marth/Ganon player that plays what many consider to be one of the best Ganons out there (Tipman), I feel I have the clout to say a few things:

First off, this player is clearly better than you. You need to accept this prior to moving forward. You couldn't recognize your mistakes simply because you're not good enough to know where to look yet.

I'll try to be brief as possible:
r
1. Defending against Marth's approach:

a. Approaching you was too easy due to the fact that you haven't learned how to counter Marth's Forward B series. That was his bread and butter vs. you in that match. Utilizing Ganon, that should never be the case, as Ganon's CC is too good and Marth's Foward B can be easily CCC'd on reaction. Counter with Grabs, D. Tilt and jabs. This will shut that method of approach down.

b. Space Marth with Bair. I can't stress this enough. Bair cuts through Marth's aerials like butter and out ranges most them also. You're simply going to have to learn on your own how to incorporate this move into your game, but it is imperative -- especally vs. Marth.

c. There were a few moments when you allowed Marth to abuse Nair coming in. Nair is Marth's most risky approach option by far. The hitbox for this move does not cover his head or his feet. Utilizing this knowledge, Down B beats Marth's Nair by clipping his feet and Fair/Bair position Ganon's character model in such a way that allows him to manuever right around it and pound Marth's forehead.

d. Generally, you need to CC more. Marth's aerials are weak against Ganon's CC. You allowed him to combo you with weak aerials and Foward B's way too often at low percentages.

2. Ganon's offense vs. Marth:

a. You really need to grab more. A grab vs Marth at any percentage = free damage and Marth takes hits like a little *****. Down Throw is your Bread n Butter, Ganon can Chain Grab with Down Throw a few times at 0%. End with a jab -> follow up or aerial (usually Bair). Keep in mind that Marth's only two DI options are in front or behind you and you'll always be ready with the appropriate response. There was a moment where you had trouble killing him at a high % (this should never be a problem for you in this matchup). You landed a grab (good), D. Threw him (good), then Up Aerialed (very bad). Remember vs. floaties: D. Throw to Fair is a killer at high percentiles if they DI in front of you (sub Bair if they DI behind).

b. Practice spacing your Fair better. Imperative for a competitive Ganon.

3. Edge guarding Marth:

a. Learn the timing for Ganon's Up Air edge guard, as it ***** Marth's Up B horribly. Many times you botched your edge guard becasue it seemed you had no real standard as to what to do while edge guarding.

b. Learn to read when Marth is getting ready to Forward B when returning. If he is close enough, you can often use that moment to intercept him with with an Up Air or Bair.


A few other things:

STOP abusing Air Dodges as a recovery tool. This is one area where the Marth showed he was clearly more mature than you, as he abused you just about every time for trying it. Try to sweetspot your second jump to the ledge better and ALWAYS make sure that's what you're using to grab the ledge and make it back to the stage if you have it available. Don't rush your decision about how you're going to climb back onto the stage when being edge guarded -- that's how you get read. Learn to infinite stall to help facilitate a smarter decision.


-SynikaL
(much longer than I wanted. Meh)

 

[mog87]

wow great post synikal.....and as so my post isnt completely useless...I believe ganon can cg marth from 0-15.

 

[Tom]

Ether is too good.

 

[Kimosabae]

wow great post synikal.....and as so my post isnt completely useless...I believe ganon can cg marth from 0-15.

You sure that's it?

I remember playing a match with Azen back in the day, and having problems getting out of it for a little while (till maybe 20-25%). Never really tested though.

Maybe I was just being a silly noob that day. I had never seen anyone CG Marth with Ganon before then. I assumed it simply wasn't possible.


-SynikaL

 

[DippnDots]

Yeah I have no idea why you were comparing this guy to KM or M2k, those two probably weren't playing as seriously as a crew battle where as this guy is. He read you like a picture book.

 

[linkmastersword]

I didn't compare him to M2K, trust me on that.

I said he was nearly as good as KM, and I stand by that.

anywho, yeah he was getting me to do the wrong move over and over and over again and I didn't adapt. Hey everyone who critiqued, I appreciate your input and I found most of it helpful (not when people say I need to grab more though, because that's just plain obvious... you should tell me HOW to grab, lol)

I'll have a rematch posted up later in this thread and I'll update the title too. I really do better against him from our other matches, but he gets some **** long combos on me that I find hard to get out of.

so here's what I gathered.

after d throw, be spontaneous and switch up the options
cc the over b (the over b was the most confusing part for me, I had no clue how to DI) I think I need to DI TOWARD marth during the over b, any ideas if that's correct?

I need to wave shield to grab

and space bairs.

recovering to the level will just be hard then, there's no way to really get around it, that was something I was really frustrated with.

yes ether is better than me, I ackowledge it, he was good at getting me to constantly do the attack recovery with his **** dash dance, I'll be sure not to get suckered in.

thanks again guys, I'll try not to let down the ganon community anymore with terrible performances such as this one.

oh, btw I was absolutely unstoppable that night too, I should've let our sheik player go in to fight ether, but I was cocky and I paid for it. oh well.

 

[Devilution]

Synikal great post, that helped me a lot, and I wasn't even the target of the post.

 

[knightpraetor]

as a marth player i learned a lot from this thread...i wanted him to post this vid just because i was curious how effective ganon's CC game is? i knew he should have been CCing to grab more, but wasn't sure if dtilt could come out in time...

i'm guessing to jab you just have to let go of down fast enough..never thought of using that though..

and yes, you need to learn to DI better..i guess you just don't get to play marth's much? but you got comboed far longer than should happen...you probably just don't have exp recognizing what marth is going for...same thing for me with schoolie's jiggs..i can't seem to DI anything:\ i know how to di the various moves but i never get it off..at least with falco he's predictable;p

 

[Koorii]

I am a ganon player in SoVa, given i have played ether quite a few times...I don't know if this goes for all marth's or just for ether's particular style...but here we go...

D tilt is crucial against Marth. i don't know the range compared to marth's attacks, but to me it doesn't seem like ether anticipates the D tilt. at low-mid %'s it can pop up for a Fair and at mid-high% it can pop up for a Uair.

Recovery. i'm going to flat out say no to dodge recovery, it is too slow, and Ether especially will punish you everytime you try it. I agree with sweet spotting with the second jump, and if you can't try sweet spotting with the U-B. Just mix up climbing the ledge...against Ether try to avoid attack climb or rolling...he'll chase you all day.

Edge guarding...Reverse Uair=l33tsauce. Uair=to marth's U-b but it will still semi spike...and if you are willing to trade that for a little % then it is fantastic. Use Dair as a last resort. it works but is easy to meteor cancel. Watch out for ledge hop Nair. if he gets the ledge, be patient wait for the opening after the Nair...it may be unorthodox but i like to D-tilt after the Nair.

Aerial battle...if you like to do battle in the air, then Bair for spacing is the ticket...if you are obsessed with Fair, go for the feet, as they are very much exposed. Uair is an all around good tactic if you are below him.

i think that pretty much covers every thing on the Ether/Marth match up...

 

[linkmastersword]

koori thanks for the advice man, you had some good stuff to say. don't worry, I'm gonna destroy him next time we fight. I normally pwn marths, but his forward b attacks threw my whole game off.

 

[knightpraetor]

fats i better not have to go up against your ganon this weekend

and i'll probably do something lame like go fox or sheik though..i hate marth vs ganon..maybe you can give me some ganon friendlies sometime?

 

[linkmastersword]

oh hell yeah man, get at me next time we are in the same tourny

 

[geemann2236]

The problem is that you rarely did any attacks, you did the occasional jab, but it was mostly dodging and attempting to recover. You also didn't tech way to many times, and you should have attempted more shield grabs and SHFFL ANA's. A chaingrab or a few would've made this match much much easier for you. Finally, you were playing defensively. Play offensively as Ganon, give him the Iron Shoulder a few times. Make him pay to grab you, punish him whenever he misses with a move. And smile, you did your best.

 

[linkmastersword]

KnightPreator, those were some pretty fun matches last night.

just study up on the match-up some more and I'll be glad to rematch you. I posted something in the shout out thread that may be of some help.



oh, update. I fought Ether again last night and still got pwned hard. this may be a little more difficult than I had originally thought. I feel like I'm recovering the entire fight. I'll really focus on me gaining control and being aggressive.

 

[knightpraetor]

lol, well the foxes weren't too bad..wish i could have gotten some in later in the night when my tech skill was a bit more on...as for marth..i think you 3 stocked mine...*shivers* i didn't bother trying to abuse over B on you since i figured you knew to CC it now..and regardless i felt the same way..i was recovering the whole time..i also don't know how to combo ganon..however, overall i think that with practice fox vs ganon isn't going to be particularly hard..it's like nair just goes through everything you do..the biggest trouble at the moment is finishing and keeping close..but i'll get it down eventually...oh and i got to stop trying to laser you..my laser game is so bad..i swear laser == lose a stock