HermitHelmet Comes Through With Some Useful Mii Fighter Tech

[Orngeblu]

Exactly, these are not overpowered characters people. They are just not allowed on FG because somebody out there has named himself "Penis Mike". In fact, people using Mii Fighters will be at a disadvantage due to the fact they aren't allowed in For Glory and can't use it for training against non-CPUs!

If people honestly think they're not allowed on FG because they're OP, then they're stupid....

 

[Radical Larry]

Eh, Mii Fighters are just...
I never use them except for Challenges, so why bother using them?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Eh, Mii Fighters are just...
I never use them except for Challenges, so why bother using them?

In Brawl, I never use Ganondorf except for Home-Run Contest, so why bother using him?

Sorry to be rude, but your argument is kinda pointless, dude.......

 

[Radical Larry]

In Brawl, I never use Ganondorf except for Home-Run Contest, so why bother using him?

Sorry to be rude, but your argument is kinda pointless, dude.......

I know, but I just see no point in Mii Fighters being in Tournaments because they're always going to be random, no matter how you put it. Only time changes my mind.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I know, but I just see no point in Mii Fighters being in Tournaments because they're always going to be random, no matter how you put it. Only time changes my mind.

Personally, I only see 9 Miis for tourneys:

• Small Brawler called Brawler S
• Medium Brawler called Brawler M
• Large Brawler called Brawler L
• Etc.

They would only have the default specials, just like everyone else, until custom specials are allowed (we may ban Piston Punch though)

 

[HermitHelmet]

The only real issue I have with Miis is that "One Inch Punch" thing. That looks ridiculously broken, but that's more an arguement against them using alternate specials.

That is so incredibly difficult to pull off.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I like how everybody cries the One inch punch being broken when it's a move that requires to bait a lightweight character to a platform so that they can be grabbed at a low percent. A strategy that can be countered by simply not going to a stage with platforms, picking a heavyweight, or simply not going up to the top platform.

News flash Rosalina is a lightweight. 4th lightest in the game.

Also, I think anyone can agree that everyone and their mother would choose 2222 over 1111, so why not just only allow 2222? It doesn't have the Piston punch either so you guys don't need to cry about that either.

 

[HermitHelmet]

Also, I think anyone can agree that everyone and their mother would choose 2222 over 1111, so why not just only allow 2222?

but muh shot puts

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I like how everybody cries the One inch punch being broken when it's a move that requires to bait a lightweight character to a platform so that they can be grabbed at a low percent. A strategy that can be countered by simply not going to a stage with platforms, picking a heavyweight, or simply not going up to the top platform.

News flash Rosalina is a lightweight. 4th lightest in the game.

Also, I think anyone can agree that everyone and their mother would choose 2222 over 1111, so why not just only allow 2222? It doesn't have the Piston punch either so you guys don't need to cry about that either.

I think that, for both Miis and Palutena, we should check which moves are the most viable in tournaments and use them. Since they have 12 different specials, there are many ways that could go......

 

[BladerDaBrawler]

Also, I think anyone can agree that everyone and their mother would choose 2222 over 1111, so why not just only allow 2222?

I main Mii Brawler, and only use 1111. I like the other movesets much more, but I don't want to have to completely change my gameplay if that moveset is declared illegal. With the 1 UpB (forgot the name lol) edgeguarding is sooo easy. If you stand on the ledge and angle it just right and it meteors them into the abyss. But other than that, I don't like 1111.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I main Mii Brawler, and only use 1111. I like the other movesets much more, but I don't want to have to completely change my gameplay if that moveset is declared illegal. With the 1 UpB (forgot the name lol) edgeguarding is sooo easy. If you stand on the ledge and angle it just right and it meteors them into the abyss. But other than that, I don't like 1111.

His Up B 1 is by far his worst up B. It doesn't combo, it doesn't kill, it leaves you completely open while you recover, I could go on. Helicopter Kick and Piston Punch are kill moves that he desperately needs since the rest of his moveset just combos and doesn't kill.

You also lose feint jump, which is like his best recovery option. Honestly his 1111 loadout might as well be the same as being banned.

but muh shot puts

As much as I love Shot Put, I'd rather sacrifice that and onslaught to get Helicopter Kick and Feint Jump back. The Ultimate Uppercut and the Burning Side Kick are decent sidegrades.

I just think since all of his moves are available from the beginning we should at least have the choice to pick from 1111, 2222, or 3333, just so that each of their specials are playable in tournament in some way. But again, I don't know anybody that wouldn't pick 2222 if they had the choice, even if 1122 is his best loadout.

 

[Acryte]

Why are we even banning custom specials or coming up with stupid arbitrary crap like 1111 or 2222? Why not embrace the fact that we can replace garbage moves with good ones? Sakurai actually did you a favor.

 

[fromundaman]

That is so incredibly difficult to pull off.

So are one frame links in traditional 2D fighters.
Practice will over-ride difficulty curve.

I know after 15-20 minutes of trying it (Never touched the Miis before), I have it down to about 20% consistency on 3DS (I don't own a WiiU). If I were to main this character this would take up literally 95% of my training room time.

I like how everybody cries the One inch punch being broken when it's a move that requires to bait a lightweight character to a platform so that they can be grabbed at a low percent. A strategy that can be countered by simply not going to a stage with platforms, picking a heavyweight, or simply not going up to the top platform.

The grab is not necessary, it just makes it easier. All this takes is one good read, and any character can die depending on stage position and stage.

Say you're on a stage like Halberd? Haven't tested it (Please fill in that blank if you could) but pretty sure it will kill everyone from anywhere on a stage like that.




The One Inch Punch IS a problem, and honestly I would rather just see it patched out (Shouldn't be hard to patch; just change the fixed knockback on the 1st hit), but until it is I cannot justify it being allowed in tournament.



_________


On a separate note, it is hard to justify giving Miis access to 12 moves without doing the same to other characters, though some of the other characters' customs are ridiculous...

 

[Newt Floss]

Does the uploader honestly expect anyone to be able to read the text that fast? Especially with that awful font

 

[Aninymouse]

Why are we even banning custom specials or coming up with stupid arbitrary crap like 1111 or 2222? Why not embrace the fact that we can replace garbage moves with good ones? Sakurai actually did you a favor.

This. The Miis are different than the rest of the cast. Why shoehorn them into the mold that the other characters fit into? The Miis borrow a lot of similar moves from other fighters, and combined with their own unique moves, the total package of any given Mii Fighter is far from broken, I think.

I feel like Mii Fighters ought to have no restrictions AT ALL, or at the very least, just have standardized weight/height. Of course, Equipment would also be banned. But, I feel like people ought to be able to use any combination of special moves they like. I understand that bringing your own Miis can cause logistical problems, and that any such Miis would have to be checked by the TO and watched closely to avoid cheaters, but I think that might be the only hurdle to jump.

I don't think the weight is a big deal, either, but I know height changes the speed of the character, which is a much bigger deal, imo. Heavier characters just take more hits to die, and lighter ones take less hits, but changes in inherent speed that last the duration of the match would be the hardest thing for opponents to adjust to by far, I think. Even so, I'm not totally against allowing different heights/weights, even knowing the above.

Limiting the Miis to 1111, 2222, etc., just seems to go against the entire point of the character. I feel like the custom specials for the Miis are even more essential to their existence than Palutena, or any other character.

If we were talking about banning or unbanning items, I think the burden of proof ought to be on the "unban" side, since Items have proven to be ban-worthy time and time again. BUT, since we've never had a character like Mii Fighter before, and since it's a trio of characters that aren't even used all that often, I feel like the burden of proof needs to be on the "ban" side. Let people have their Miis and only restrict them accordingly as needed.

 

[Egregore]

As a TO and advocate for diversity I find it preposterous that there are people who want to not only ban custom moves, but Mii Fighters as well.

If I can help it you'll never find this at one of my tournaments.

Also, thanks Hermit for crediting me for flame sliding & cancelling. Really nice video!

Hope to see some strong Mii users out in the wild soon. :}

 

[Jigglymaster]

The One Inch Punch IS a problem, and honestly I would rather just see it patched out (Shouldn't be hard to patch; just change the fixed knockback on the 1st hit), but until it is I cannot justify it being allowed in tournament.

On a separate note, it is hard to justify giving Miis access to 12 moves without doing the same to other characters, though some of the other characters' customs are ridiculous...

If the one inch problem is a general concern to the general public, that move alone should be banned but none of the others.

It also can be justified due to the fact that the game doesn't recognize them as custom moves (can be played with customs off) and the fact that they are available from the start. You'd actually need to add additional rules saying that their alt specials are banned so that in itself should say that they should be allowed. All you have to do its
Customization turned OFF
Guest Mii's allowed.

Both the Brawler and the gunner could be very refreshing and changing to the meta if they were allowed their specials.

 

[One man army46'99]

The mii fighters should be allowed in tournament play. However they should only be the default size and weight, and for the one inch punch you can only let the first hit connect as the other hits don't have as much knockback and if it isnt patched then just ban the move. The mii fighters moves are all very different unlike most characters where the custom special is either a faster less powerful attack or a slower more powerful variant

 

[fromundaman]

If the one inch problem is a general concern to the general public, that move alone should be banned but none of the others.

It also can be justified due to the fact that the game doesn't recognize them as custom moves (can be played with customs off) and the fact that they are available from the start. You'd actually need to add additional rules saying that their alt specials are banned so that in itself should say that they should be allowed. All you have to do its
Customization turned OFF
Guest Mii's allowed.

Both the Brawler and the gunner could be very refreshing and changing to the meta if they were allowed their specials.

I can get behind banning just that move.


The custom/alternate specials thing is kind of a technicality, but ehh, fair enough. Honestly the main issue I see with this is the advantage they get over other characters in terms of counterpicking certain moves for certain matchups, but then I admit I haven't played with the Miis much (Don't even know all of their moves), so I can't say how game changing that is.


What is the default for guest miis? This is more out of curiosity than anything, since I doubt changing custom moves for the guest mii would take much longer than making custom controls does in a tournament setting unless you are changing moves between matches to change the matchup...



EDIT:

Actually this brings up a new question:

If I lose a match vs a Mii fighter, choose my CP stage and they say they're sticking with their Mii fighter, are they allowed to change their moves? If so, can we agree they should announce it and change the moves before I choose my character so that the loser can still CP their character choice?

 

[Joe73191]

so no one has found the perfect height weight and moveset combination yet? I'm surprised.

 

[HermitHelmet]

Does the uploader honestly expect anyone to be able to read the text that fast? Especially with that awful font

lmao it is clearly readable, and there's a pause button for a reason

 

[HermitHelmet]

Also, thanks Hermit for crediting me for flame sliding & cancelling. Really nice video!

No problem my dude! If you find anything more for the Miis, let me know and I'll share it with the community!

 

[Wasp]

Nah thats not how miis were intended to be. Besides you'd be fighting against miis online like 80% of the time or something... i dont like that idea tbh.

 

[MugenLord]

I shouldn't see them banned at all and the one inch punch problem could be banned I guess. I don't see the problem with not allowing the Mii's use different combination of moves for counter picking. I see it as no different than changing to another character but only its just one character. I mean things were tested in tournaments before things were decided to be banned so why can't that same process be the same with the mii's? We don't even know the true potential of these characters yet until we see tourney turnouts, hell I would love to see Palutena's other moves because her basic setup is complete a** to me.

But hey I could be wrong.

 

[Jigglymaster]

The custom/alternate specials thing is kind of a technicality, but ehh, fair enough. Honestly the main issue I see with this is the advantage they get over other characters in terms of counterpicking certain moves for certain matchups, but then I admit I haven't played with the Miis much (Don't even know all of their moves), so I can't say how game changing that is.


What is the default for guest miis? This is more out of curiosity than anything, since I doubt changing custom moves for the guest mii would take much longer than making custom controls does in a tournament setting unless you are changing moves between matches to change the matchup...

Actually this brings up a new question:

If I lose a match vs a Mii fighter, choose my CP stage and they say they're sticking with their Mii fighter, are they allowed to change their moves? If so, can we agree they should announce it and change the moves before I choose my character so that the loser can still CP their character choice?

If the piston punch is banned, there is no doubt in my mind that 99% of Mii Brawler mains will go with this loadout regardless which character they're up against.
ShotPut
Onslaught
Helicopter Kick
Feint Jump

I also cant really think of any scenario where you can counterpick moves that they aren't using, since these are just flat out better in almost every way. Can't say I know enough of gunner and swordfighter where this might be a problem. But, I think if we were to do something about this and a person did want to state that they wanted to cp a moveset, they'd just tell them what they're changing it to and thats it.

Also for guest miis, they are default weight/height, so no size worries there. The loadout that they begin with is Shotput, Onslaught, Axe Kick, and Head on Assualt. The latter of the two being completely trash moves in every sense of the regard.

so no one has found the perfect height weight and moveset combination yet? I'm surprised.

Tiny/Short Brawler is the best combination, but for the sake of keeping tournaments fast we should use Guest Miis, which are default height/weight.

 

[Zethoro]

No credit where credit is due for that whole gundashing thing, huh?
Well, I guess that's what happens when you only post about it and don't actually make a video. But hey, at least I got to name it, and I'm glad the Mii fighters are actually getting some attention for once.

 

[HermitHelmet]

No credit where credit is due for that whole gundashing thing, huh?
Well, I guess that's what happens when you only post about it and don't actually make a video. But hey, at least I got to name it, and I'm glad the Mii fighters are actually getting some attention for once.

How is that your tech? I don't recall you creating any sort of ruckus about it that anyone woud deem noteworthy, and 101leafy's caught my attention.

 

[TurboNoob]

The Mii Fighters haven't gotten a lot of time in the spotlight. Given their exclusion in For Glory and some early tournaments, some seem happy to put them in an early grave. After seeing some great Mii Fighter advanced techniques, however, hopefully players will give these unique fighters some more attention.

Shotput-Shuffling allows the Mii Brawler to retain some aerial momentum out of his neutral B shotput attack.
​

YouTube user HermitHelmet has made a few videos regarding the Mii Fighters containing advanced techniques for the Mii Brawler and Gunner. These techniques create some really exciting movement options for both characters - check them out!

Mii Brawler: Shotput-Shuffling

Mii Gunner: Advanced Techniques
​

Even as some of the competitive community appears to be content leaving the Mii Fighters behind, it is refreshing to see someone put so much time into the characters. HermitHelmet has also made a video defending these characters' tournament legality. If these characters are important to you, follow his lead and speak up! The community deserves to hear your voice.

The Derrit thinks that custom specials and Mii Fighters should be tournament legal, and that 'it will take too long to set up' is a pretty petty excuse when your tournament is already running until 4:30 in the morning. Engage him on Twitter at @TheDerrit.

The competitve community rejects anything that may ruin their chances of winnning as far as I can tell. Heck, I figure that 8-Player Smash can determine the order players fight in, like a preliminaries sort of thing.

 

[fromundaman]

The competitve community rejects anything that may ruin their chances of winnning as far as I can tell. Heck, I figure that 8-Player Smash can determine the order players fight in, like a preliminaries sort of thing.

Really? Then why aren't we playing with items and such? Against the top players, it would be what middle of the road players like myself require to win.


No, the competitive community just rejects (And argues) over what could potentially disrupt game balance, and new aspects of the game (AKA unknowns) often undergo the most scrutiny since we don't know the exact effect they will have on the metagame.

The "Wait and See" approach is not as good as some people make it sound either; you can't tell someone "Go ahead and main Mii Fighters/Metaknight/etc. for a prolonged period of time then turn around and say "Syke! You can't use your main anymore!" and expect them to stick around.
Similarly, if something overpoweringly strong is allowed to stay in the meta, then the people not wanting to use it will leave the scene.

Things like the legality of movesets and characters needs to be decided early so as to not make people waste time learning something only to end up unable to use it in tournament.

 

[TurboNoob]

Really? Then why aren't we playing with items and such? Against the top players, it would be what middle of the road players like myself require to win.


No, the competitive community just rejects (And argues) over what could potentially disrupt game balance, and new aspects of the game (AKA unknowns) often undergo the most scrutiny since we don't know the exact effect they will have on the metagame.

The "Wait and See" approach is not as good as some people make it sound either; you can't tell someone "Go ahead and main Mii Fighters/Metaknight/etc. for a prolonged period of time then turn around and say "Syke! You can't use your main anymore!" and expect them to stick around.
Similarly, if something overpoweringly strong is allowed to stay in the meta, then the people not wanting to use it will leave the scene.

Things like the legality of movesets and characters needs to be decided early so as to not make people waste time learning something only to end up unable to use it in tournament.

That may be true. But at the very least, people should at least TRY certain things. What about only banning certain items. How about a match food items only. Set the appearance rate to Low. HOW ABOUT A TOURNAMENT WITH MII FIGHTERS ONLY? I'm not saying that balance isn't important. I'm saying things can be done without going overboard or disregarding balance.

Some stages can even have a tournament around them. Team Battle tournaments can held on certain stages, maybe even items can only be used under certain conditions. Item combos could even be possible. Stages have patterns that repeat. Heck, some stages (that are not Final Destination or Battlefield) don't even DO ANYTHING. This can test the knowledge of a player other than "what character to use".


There's so many possiblities for tournaments is all I'm saying. You're absolutely right, though. Balance is important.

 

[Zethoro]

How is that your tech? I don't recall you creating any sort of ruckus about it that anyone woud deem noteworthy, and 101leafy's caught my attention.

I first mentioned "Gundashing" as it became coined, in this thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...-gunner-competitive-discussion-thread.372999/
That was on November 25th. On November 29th, 101leafy created the thread about it and responded to my post about it, then claiming in this thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/gun-dashing-new-mii-gunner-movement-at.380490/

I've discovered a new AT for Mii Gunner that gives them a lot of mobility. I will refer to this technique as gun dashing for now, unless someone thinks of a better name. Sorry if this has already been posted, but I haven't seen anything similar in the threads that I have read.

I didn't make a commotion about it because I figured someone had found it. I didn't think about the fact that almost nobody even uses the Mii Fighters, so it wouldn't have been found. My problem wasn't that he made a thread about it. I'm glad he raised awareness of it. My problem is that he decided to say he discovered it and used the name.

 

[101Leafy]

Zethoro, I'm really sorry about the confusion. I want you to know that I did not see your post at all, and came across this tech entirely on my own. "Gundashing" isn't a very original name, and I never intended to take credit away from you, as I never knew anyone had found it in the first place. We both discovered it on our own, the only difference is that you made a post about it and I made a thread.