Help - Countering Zero Suit Samus' Throw (Tips vs ZSS)

[Kantolin]

I was having a relative blast in For Glory as DK - even ran into a couple mirror matches for the first time in a good long while (Stinky and "False B...", if you happen to be on smashboards, you guys were awesome fun DKs. Made me absolutely terrified to be off stage, haha).

Anyway!

A few of the people I played against weren't terribly good at the game and thus were beaten swiftly and usually halted after one game. One then was a good sport and stuck around, swapping around characters and playing as several others. He then wasn't terribly good, so the matches went by quickly.

Then he went to Zero Suit Samus. He lost his first stock almost immediately as he was being predictable with paralyzer and similar... then he grabbed me into an up-B.

And well.

He was /extremely/ predictable with doing so as it became pretty much all he did. He'd just rush at me and out comes the whip to grab, and when he grabbed me he'd up throw into an up-B. He wasn't at all threatening outside of that move - whenever he'd do something else I'd punish him hard for it... but for some reason, I couldn't stop him from grabbing me. Now granted, in /general/ I do rely on shield and outprioritizing things, but I would like to reemphasize that this guy became extremely predictable (which normally is a bad thing but absolutely worked for him here) and summarily I didn't attempt to block the grab after the first time.

I attempted:
- Ground dodging: ZSS would then recover before I do. DK's ground dodge depresses me whenever I attempt it, heh, but I was pretty desperate.
- Rolling backwards: ZSS could just extend her dash as her whip reaches long enough.
- Rolling forward: Again, I'd have to start rolling before she reached me. This actually occasionally worked, but it was more 'did ZS screw up' and not an actual solution.
- Powering through attacks: The whip seems to outrange everything DK does. Outranges a forward tilt easy. I attempted his up-B in hopes that super armour or the fact that I'm swinging would work, but no dice.
- Short hopping: She'd grab me anyway since DK's feet extend pretty low.
- Jumping higher: She'd recover from her grab animationbefore I could do much.

From the air I had very slightly more options, but generally he'd just shield until I landed and grab me amidst DK's horrible landing lag. I did use side-B to try to break his shield, but 90% shield damage isn't 100% shield damage - so he'd just stop shielding, grab, up-B, and by the time I was anywhere near him again his shield had recovered. I could respond by landing far away or on the edge (my usual solutions to that besides attempting a shield break), but then we're back to square one.

What on earth do I do? I can accept it if the problem is my timing, but I generally have pretty good timing so that'd be a bit of a surprise. And in this case, it's certainly not that I was being outplayed - the player wasn't very good even with ZSS, I just had no idea how to solve that grab. Normally people don't use it quite that frequently. The one thing I do realize I didn't try was a short hopped air dodge - would that have gotten me somewhere? DK's landing lag is murder.

Is there an obvious solution I'm not thinking of? I certainly hope this is a case of 'here is somewhere to improve', haha. It's actually kinda funny that I had more trouble with someone who literally spammed one move than your typical ZSS player.

(This seems a little too complex for the 'simple Q&A' topic, but if it should be moved there then I apologize!)

 

[Brickbox]

Stuff like this would be fine in the Q and A
Zss' grab has lots of ending lag so I have no idea why some of the options don't leave you enough time, this is probably due to wifi. If you can have a friend offline, or someone whom with you have an amazing connection on wifi with and have him replicate the Zss and find the optimal punish.

Personally I have run into this, lots of for glory zss players with do paralizer and then run up and grab immediately after (to catch people who shield a lot, I usually just jump out of shield and that keeps me from being grabbed, and I can usually fast fall and punish with an air move.
Also down-b may have enough range to stop zss before she is in range but I'm not sure.

Overall don't take for glory as how things are, people are going to be able to abuse the fact that you can't easily buffer punishes. It's just how it is :/

 

[Big O]

I attempted:
- Ground dodging: ZSS would then recover before I do. DK's ground dodge depresses me whenever I attempt it, heh, but I was pretty desperate.
- Rolling backwards: ZSS could just extend her dash as her whip reaches long enough.
- Rolling forward: Again, I'd have to start rolling before she reached me. This actually occasionally worked, but it was more 'did ZS screw up' and not an actual solution.
- Powering through attacks: The whip seems to outrange everything DK does. Outranges a forward tilt easy. I attempted his up-B in hopes that super armour or the fact that I'm swinging would work, but no dice.
- Short hopping: She'd grab me anyway since DK's feet extend pretty low.
- Jumping higher: She'd recover from her grab animationbefore I could do much.

From the air I had very slightly more options, but generally he'd just shield until I landed and grab me amidst DK's horrible landing lag. I did use side-B to try to break his shield, but 90% shield damage isn't 100% shield damage - so he'd just stop shielding, grab, up-B, and by the time I was anywhere near him again his shield had recovered. I could respond by landing far away or on the edge (my usual solutions to that besides attempting a shield break), but then we're back to square one.

What on earth do I do? I can accept it if the problem is my timing, but I generally have pretty good timing so that'd be a bit of a surprise. And in this case, it's certainly not that I was being outplayed - the player wasn't very good even with ZSS, I just had no idea how to solve that grab. Normally people don't use it quite that frequently. The one thing I do realize I didn't try was a short hopped air dodge - would that have gotten me somewhere? DK's landing lag is murder.

Is there an obvious solution I'm not thinking of? I certainly hope this is a case of 'here is somewhere to improve', haha. It's actually kinda funny that I had more trouble with someone who literally spammed one move than your typical ZSS player.

(This seems a little too complex for the 'simple Q&A' topic, but if it should be moved there then I apologize!)

Stuff like this is fine with it's own thread. You put time/effort into your post and this is complex enough to warrant a more focused discussion.

In my experience on wifi, her grab is extremely annoying to deal with. With lag, there just isn't any way to counter it on reaction. That said, I was interested in how to counter it offline so I went to training mode.

Her standing grab has 68 frames of commitment. Her dash grab has 71 frames of commitment. Her grabs are active from frames 16-29. Her grab reach is about the same as your Down B, but the grabbox is tied to the tip of her whip which takes time to travel her hand to max range (sort of like olimar's grab). While difficult in practice, this means you can spot dodge it on reaction at a distance. At close range, she can only grab on frames 16-19 and the whip may already be too far behind you to grab you.

Basically, if you successfully spot dodge or forward roll through her grab you will get a free Dsmash/Dash Atk at worst and a 9 punch at best. If you full hopped over her grab, you should be able to fast fall and hit her with any aerial. If you can't punish her grabs on reaction, try to jump a lot and stay in the air. Instead of hitting her shield and landing with an aerial, empty land into grab to make her think twice about just holding shield.

 

[Kantolin]

Sorry for that lengthy delay; life has a habit of doing that!

I definitely appreciate the responses! From some offline practice, it does seem that the problem is very slight lag - I can compensate for it with most things online, but the timing is fairly precise against ZSS's grab so that was indeed the problem. Thanks! It's heartening to know it was just a timing thing and not 'this is a giant hole in playing as DK', haha.

I'm learning online that the first two or so attempts tend to be gamebreakers, at least against random people on for glory. If I can manage to have the first two grabs be punished, they generally stop trying which lets me breathe a little. (Down-B technically might stop it, but the precision required for it means it's not helpful unless I was doing down-B before she dashes)

Are there any general tips for dealing with ZSS as DK, though? I generally can match most other players and don't have too much trouble with most other speedsters (Fox, Greninja, Sonic), but it sometimes feels like enemy ZSS players can just do whatever and result in me fighting an uphill battle. Between her priority and speed, it's sometimes a fight to even land a hit! She is also very difficult to edge guard due mostly to her tether and her own aerial priority (Although if she spends any actual time on the edge as people with tethers are wont to do, a short hopped aerial down-B solves that).

Generally, I've found DK's terrific back-air does solve most things ZSS does for aerial conflicts (Unless my timing is shoddy and she can extend a side-B but then that's my fault). I suppose these are 'generic DK solutions to problems' when I look at it - If she spends too much time rolling, down-b. And of course for block-happy ZSSs (like block happy anyones), nudging their shield then nailing them with a side-B. But beyond her up-B, she has the right mix of speed, power, and priority to really wreck up DK pretty constantly, so any real tips are very well appreciated.

I do use DK's grounded up-B to super armour through her attacks as appropriate (angling it for a kill if she's over 120%), but spamming up-B is hazardous for obvious reasons, heh. Also, it tends to make her more grab-happy, which is just as hazardous to my to the Kong.

Much appreciated!

Oh - as one last note. DK's landing lag feels killer - if you land and immediately grab, does it buffer that? If there's any way to buffer out that landing lag then boy howdy am I all for it!