Heavy plus speed???

[Dark Phazon]

DK is pretty trash without customs.

With customs he's ok. Cyclone is ridiculous even if you understand how it works and how to play around it.

Just curious how would you rank the heavyweights?

 

[MrEh]

They're all average to trash.

It really doesn't matter how you rank them. None of them are good.

 

[Dark Phazon]

They're all average to trash.

It really doesn't matter how you rank them. None of them are good.

So who are top 5 then?
Who is really good?

 

[MrEh]

Sheik is the best imo, with Rosa, ZSS, and Diddy tailing in no particular order.

Just how I feel about it though. It really doesn't matter.

 

[Cassius.]

I'm not sure how the thread developed into this, since it was originally a thread about Bowser and heavy characters...

but imo it's Sheik as a clear top, then Rosa/Diddy/now ZSS/Pikachu/Luigi/Ness in the mix.

ZSS is really ****ing good but all of those characters have absurd rewards off of getting grabs or just control neutral way too easily. Her OoS game is r i d i c u l o u s. I'm surprised more Bowser players don't play her as a secondary.

Luigi's recovery is **** but lord if he's not a problem in this game, I don't know what is.

Top 5 after Sheik really doesn't matter anymore. 1.05/6? shook things up a lot.

 

[MrEh]

ZSS is so ridiculous when she kills people off of a random grab at like 50%.

Her UpB is infuriating.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Sheik is the best imo, with Rosa, ZSS, and Diddy tailing in no particular order.

Just how I feel about it though. It really doesn't matter.

Yoshi?/Sonic?/Pikachu?

 

[S_B]

They're all average to trash.

It really doesn't matter how you rank them. None of them are good.

It's extra disappointing because this was the first SSB game where Sakurai/Namco seemed to be looking into ways to not make heavyweights total ass in 1v1 fights, and that would be especially important considering there's a 1v1 online mode.

At least we have Project M...

Luigi's recovery is **** but lord if he's not a problem in this game, I don't know what is.

I don't think his recovery is that bad (or no where near as bad as it should be).

I've seen Weegees rise to the ledge from kissing the bottom blast zone. His horizontal is a problem for him, true, but not every character can intercept it without having to worry about getting hit by it and possibly stage spiked.

 

[redcometchar]

Quick question, when "Heavy characters" are mentioned is this referring to big characters, or weight values, or speed or what? If you mean weight, Yoshi and Falcon are quick ones.

 

[Dark Phazon]

It's extra disappointing because this was the first SSB game where Sakurai/Namco seemed to be looking into ways to not make heavyweights total *** in 1v1 fights, and that would be especially important considering there's a 1v1 online mode.

At least we have Project M...



I don't think his recovery is that bad (or no where near as bad as it should be).

I've seen Weegees rise to the ledge from kissing the bottom blast zone. His horizontal is a problem for him, true, but not every character can intercept it without having to worry about getting hit by it and possibly stage spiked.

The heavyweights are better than they have ever been in smash bros.
Sure none are high tier but if you get good with any of them you can beat alotta people.

Not so much for Ike & DK though imo
They seem the most lacking.

Bowser
DDD
Charizard

Are defently the best

R.0.B also but he is abit lighter.

@ redcometchar
When i mean Heavies im talking about

Bowser
DK
DDD
Charizard
Ganon
Ike

They are the true heavies imo

 

[MagiusNecros]

Ike takes too long to kill something. Bowser has spoiled me.

 

[redcometchar]

Ok @ Dark Phazon thanks for clearing that up, and im taking that as "heavy characters" are the large cumbersome ones not the ones with high weight (which renders the original topic of this thread counter intuitive).

As for the ranking of the heavy characters, I am curious why bowser and ddd are higher than ganon and dk. Ganon has a boatload of good tools to use which include:
-one of the only two useful ledgestalls in the game.
-some of the best kill combos In the game including a garunteed zero to death.
-one of the best aproaches in the game in his warlock drop kick.
-the best platform knockdown setup outside footstools.

I also think that although bowser has a fantastic neutral game, he lacks the combos of the other characters. As for dk, average joe has been preforming very well as of late. I dont know mutch about dk but he makes dk look good.
My listing would be
ganon
dk/charizard
bowser
Ike


Ddd

 

[Big-Cat]

Ganondorf still suffers from limited approaching options, even with his Wizard Drop Kick. In fact, doing that too far out makes it super easy to react too. It's wonderful for far whiff punishing though. Bowser does not need combos when his attacks easily do the job of two or three attacks from most characters.

DK's biggest issue is that out of all the heavyweights, he has the hardest time killing, IMO.

 

[S_B]

Ok @ Dark Phazon thanks for clearing that up, and im taking that as "heavy characters" are the large cumbersome ones not the ones with high weight (which renders the original topic of this thread counter intuitive).

As for the ranking of the heavy characters, I am curious why bowser and ddd are higher than ganon and dk. Ganon has a boatload of good tools to use which include:
-one of the only two useful ledgestalls in the game.
-some of the best kill combos In the game including a garunteed zero to death.
-one of the best aproaches in the game in his warlock drop kick.
-the best platform knockdown setup outside footstools.

I also think that although bowser has a fantastic neutral game, he lacks the combos of the other characters. As for dk, average joe has been preforming very well as of late. I dont know mutch about dk but he makes dk look good.
My listing would be
ganon
dk/charizard
bowser
Ike


Ddd

There's definitely something to be said for "Airbender Kong"...

Also, are we counting Wario or no? He's agile in some ways and cumbersome in others, but he's overall still fairly heavy.

The real problem for heavies is that characters are generally balanced around two factors:

1. How easily they can KO (including damage racking and good kill confirms)

2. How hard they are to KO (including weight, recovery and evasion)

The problem is that heavies are typically built around the idea that they'll be hard to KO through A) their weight (but have fairly large hurtboxes) and B) will do a lot of damage/knockback with their attacks but these attacks will be harder to confirm and generally be easily punished on a miss.

The trouble with A is simple: if you have a character that takes a lot of damage easily because of their large hurtbox, it tends to matter very little how much they weigh. If you need to do 50% more damage to KO a heavy, it's not hard when that heavy is super easy to combo for that extra 50%.

And B is also an issue because, big surprise, when most of that character's moves are easily punished, they're going to get that combo started on them THAT much faster.

Here's an idea that I think could seriously help heavies: what if they overall just had less hitstun when they got hit by attacks?

The large hurtbox is already disadvantage enough when it comes to landing damage on them, and as we know, they generally have a harder time KOing because of slower, laggy moves. But if hitstun was reduced, it would allow them not only to break out of combos faster but also to make it more dangerous to attempt to combo them in the first place as there'd be a real risk of retaliation for smaller characters that attempt to get too aggressive.

Then, that first 50% damage won't be a foregone conclusion off of a single throw by a lighter character (like Luigi d-throwing a heavy, for example). Knockback itself would remain the same, only the duration of hitstun before a heavy can act would be greatly reduced (or maybe it would be based on a sliding scale of % vs. weight).

After all, if it's generally difficult for heavies to have guaranteed followups (and it is), shouldn't it be just as difficult for light, quick characters to have those guaranteed followups on heavies?

It would also make the game overall more diverse by making it so you need to play the combo game VERY differently against different characters. For example, chasing a "guaranteed" followup on Fox could get you killed if you attempted to do the same thing on DK.

A Fox comboing a Fox would not only still be doable, but it'd also require more skill because of how much less hurtbox (hurtfox?) Fox has. How much skill does it really take to combo a heavy, especially at low %?

I guess the other alternative would be something like increasing hitstun on a heavies' moves to the point where heavies can combo as well, or a system where, when a heavy's move lands, it has less ending lag, meaning that heavies' confirming attacks will allow them to combo.

I'm perfectly fine with heavies NOT being able to combo, but they need to not be combo FOOD or they're never going to rise above middle tier, really. Unless of course they gave them gobs of SA, which I don't think they'd ever do because it would make them godly in casual play.

 

[Big-Cat]

Heavies ask for a different playstyle than lighter characters, a playstyle that is centered around patience. Heavies should not get less hitstun on moves because that's just a balancing nightmare waiting to happen. They already get a buff with rage augmenting their high KO percentages. Hitstun is already proportional to damage unless otherwise noted.

As for heavies rising above mid tier, that really lies in the players. Like I said, characters like Bowser THRIVE on patience. If the Bowser isn't patient, he's going to get his ass kicked. Sometimes that patience involves not attacking for a little while. Believe me, that has paid off very well where I get the stage advantage and less damage received because I waited.

 

[S_B]

Heavies ask for a different playstyle than lighter characters, a playstyle that is centered around patience. Heavies should not get less hitstun on moves because that's just a balancing nightmare waiting to happen. They already get a buff with rage augmenting their high KO percentages. Hitstun is already proportional to damage unless otherwise noted.

As for heavies rising above mid tier, that really lies in the players. Like I said, characters like Bowser THRIVE on patience. If the Bowser isn't patient, he's going to get his *** kicked. Sometimes that patience involves not attacking for a little while. Believe me, that has paid off very well where I get the stage advantage and less damage received because I waited.

The problem is that (I believe) heavies have poor matchups with one or most of the current top tiers. Shiek eats so many heavies for lunch that she should ironically be the fattest, heaviest character in the game.

I have infinite respect for anyone who makes a heavy their main (I love DKWill in particular), but the ugly truth is that the weaknesses of heavies are too great for their strengths.

A large hurtbox is a massive, MASSIVE detriment in this game. Not only does it make you easier to hit in general, but it also makes you easier to grab, and most of the current A tier get too much from a single grab, and the massive hurtbox, again, makes it easier to land followups after that grab.

I know how much people love combos (I do, too), but as long as heavies are combo food, I doubt we'll see them do anything but sink in the tiers.

I agree that its up to the players, but most players aren't going to pour hours and hours into a character that has a 30:70 matchup somewhere in the A tier.

Another possible solution would be to make it so moves and throws landed on heavier characters take longer to finish, adding endlag to the hit/throw would reduce the combo potential on heavier characters. It actually makes logical sense as well, as hurling a beachball takes a lot less effort and follow-through than throwing a bowling ball.

Mind you, I don't expect this to change, but I don't see the situation improving for heavy characters unless SOMETHING changes.

 

[redcometchar]

@ Big-Cat
Ganon does have a hard time approaching, and rightfully so. Along with his rather sub par recovery I think it makes for a rather well balanced character. Bowser, on the other hand, has no trouble approaching. I believe this is the justification for his lack of combos, as apposed to his attacks doing more damage. Ganon has high damage moves and combos.
Also how do you figure that DK has the hardest time killing? Like I said earlier I don't know much about the character but it dosent seem he has any more trouble than any of the other heavies.
I agree with the place of heavies relies on the player though, very well spoken.

@ S_B
A big problem with what you are proposing, aside from balance issues, is the way this would be implemented. If hitstun was inversely proportional to weight, being if weight went up hitstun went down just like knockback, it would buff characters like Yoshi and Falcon, who are both very solid characters in the meta. It would have to be implemented using some kind of new variable like hurtbox cross sectional area.
I don't think these suggestions would be beneficial to the meta though. I think the fault of these characters lies in their inherent slowness, and that the problem would remain as long as the characters were slow. At high level faster characters are better simply because they do not allow their opponents time to react to options. Even if characters like Ganon (im biased for ganon <3) experienced less hitstun they would retain thier key flaws.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Ok @ Dark Phazon thanks for clearing that up, and im taking that as "heavy characters" are the large cumbersome ones not the ones with high weight (which renders the original topic of this thread counter intuitive).

As for the ranking of the heavy characters, I am curious why bowser and ddd are higher than ganon and dk. Ganon has a boatload of good tools to use which include:
-one of the only two useful ledgestalls in the game.
-some of the best kill combos In the game including a garunteed zero to death.
-one of the best aproaches in the game in his warlock drop kick.
-the best platform knockdown setup outside footstools.

I also think that although bowser has a fantastic neutral game, he lacks the combos of the other characters. As for dk, average joe has been preforming very well as of late. I dont know mutch about dk but he makes dk look good.
My listing would be
ganon
dk/charizard
bowser
Ike


Ddd

I main Ganon so i know all about him but and i have comfortably destroyed DK's & Ike's

And DK used to be my 2nd main. He is very fun extreme fun thats why i always play as him every now and then but i dropped him from my regular play he just doesnt cut it.....

And Ike has to much end lag.

But Bowser/DDD are mental.
Also nor enough people give charizard any credit... he is insane.

What is really important for a character is recovery and grab.

Ganon has the crappiest grab in the game...and probly the worse recovery out of the heavyweights.

I really want k.Rool

 

[sleepy_Nex]

The heavy who struggles the most to kill is definitly Ike.
@ Dark Phazon Ike has some Lag cancel but it's not easy to do.

I don't think that heavies benefit from rage really that much. Shiek just grabs Ganon and gimps him from zero to death for example.

 

[Dark Phazon]

The heavy who struggles the most to kill is definitly Ike.
@ Dark Phazon Ike has some Lag cancel but it's not easy to do.

I don't think that heavies benefit from rage really that much. Shiek just grabs Ganon and gimps him from zero to death for example.

Me as Ganon on for Glory Vs. a Good falcon. The final destination match.
That Falcon was good.


Guar Plains:
https://youtu.be/9-HBbjUTy4A

Final Destination:
https://youtu.be/rrqQoMzhOgw

 

[sleepy_Nex]

@ Dark Phazon

I don't quite understand what you are trying to tell me but i know perfectly well of what ganon is capable. I play very often against a friend of mine who mains him and is improving more and more. (he's good)
I myself play him from time to time because he really is fun to use.

But what i mentioned can happen especially with his recovery.

 

[Big-Cat]

@ redcometchar
DK generally has his big kill moves requiring either a charge (B) or are spike movies. He does have the benefit though of having the safest neutral out of the heavies. FTilt doesn't kill like Bowser or Ganondorf's though.

On a slightly off topic, I thought this might be a good read. I'm a self taught Hung Gar user and this article happens to be extremely applicable to Bowser.

https://winglamkungfu.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/character-of-hung-gar-in-combat/

 

[MagiusNecros]

Eh we just need to jab 15 times so we can cheesekill everyone with a ftilt.

 

[S_B]

it would buff characters like Yoshi and Falcon, who are both very solid characters in the meta. It would have to be implemented using some kind of new variable like hurtbox cross sectional area.

I think I like the reverse idea better: the recovery time from a move, be it a throw or an attack, increases when using it on larger characters, thus making it harder to combo them. Same exact hitstun and knockback, though.

I don't think these suggestions would be beneficial to the meta though. I think the fault of these characters lies in their inherent slowness, and that the problem would remain as long as the characters were slow. At high level faster characters are better simply because they do not allow their opponents time to react to options. Even if characters like Ganon (im biased for ganon <3) experienced less hitstun they would retain thier key flaws.

I hate to say it but I feel like the only way to really make heavies stand on their own in the meta would be to give them one or more of the following:

1. More SA (or some SA, period, for those who have none)
The beauty of SA is that it prevents frame traps, allowing a move to power through whatever your opponent is trying to trap you with. It DOES wind up screwing with the casual game, though, which is why I don't expect Sakurai would want to add it as SSB is a party game first and foremost.

2. Grab armor
Making grabs a safe option for heavies would at least guarantee a safe option for them in neutral at all times.

3. Invincibility frames on more moves
The loss of invuln frames on fortress' startup sucked, especially given how laggy and punishable the move is.

4. Faster mash out of grab
Not a huge change, but one that makes sense and would prevent extra damage racking on a heavy through grabs (since they get enough damage racked on them as it is).

5. Less lag overall and more safe moves
This is probably the biggest one: if you ftilt with Bowser and you miss, there are a number of characters that will simply run in and grab you before you can get another one out (and I'm pretty sure some characters can do this between your jabs, even...).

The trick is buffing them on the competitive side without doing the same on the casual side, and the trick for that is generally to buff things that only competitive players will know how to get the most out of. That's why I'd shy away from straight up SA: it's fine in Project M because the game is almost exclusively meant to be played competitively, but it would potentially vastly overpower heavies in casual play.

It'd be interesting to see what would happen if they screwed up a patch and Shiek was removed from the game for a month. I'm guessing all the heavies would literally rise a tier during that time...

I don't think that heavies benefit from rage really that much. Shiek just grabs Ganon and gimps him from zero to death for example.

I really have to agree with this.

All the rage in the world isn't going to get you the kill confirm, and if rage was the great equalizer that everyone seems to think it is, we'd be seeing heavies sitting around B-tier and occasionally (or regularly) even taking tournaments.

 

[Big-Cat]

Eh we just need to jab 15 times so we can cheesekill everyone with a ftilt.

If you're talking about the article, which is in the context of Hung Gar, that's not true. It's more like you need to keep yourself close. Not necessarily point blank. For close range, we have jab, throw, klaw, bomb, and fortress.

 

[S_B]

If you're talking about the article, which is in the context of Hung Gar, that's not true. It's more like you need to keep yourself close. Not necessarily point blank. For close range, we have jab, throw, klaw, bomb, and fortress.

I think he was being sarcastic, since jab is Bowser's safest move.

Heavies, on the whole, need one more mechanic to make them more competitive, but it ideally shouldn't be something that overpowers them in casual play.

As long as rushing a heavy down with overpowering offense is still the best way to beat them, they'll never climb past C tier.

 

[Big-Cat]

You do know that their attacks out prioritize weaker attacks right? In fact, I'm sure FTilt does not have a hurt box on the fist.

 

[MagiusNecros]

They need to buff tough guy. Cuz I said so.

I am kinda going back to slam again. I like free 18% damage and a stock reset. If need be.

Other then lucario I feel bowser and zard get the greatest benefit out of rage.

 

[redcometchar]

@ S_B
Any specific buffs should be character specific and not general buffs. I personally think ganon is in a good spot now, and even if he wasnt he suffers from different issues than bowser or ddd.
Since this is a bowser thread, what does bowser need? What if his shell gaurd was buffed?

 

[MagiusNecros]

@ S_B
Any specific buffs should be character specific and not general buffs. I personally think ganon is in a good spot now, and even if he wasnt he suffers from different issues than bowser or ddd.
Since this is a bowser thread, what does bowser need? What if his shell gaurd was buffed?

Shellguard on dair. Buff tough guy. No flinch fsmash.

Fortress to ledge. Fix side b and make bowser not fear ledge on reverse fortress.

 

[Big-Cat]

Bowser doesn't need any buffs.

 

[S_B]

You do know that their attacks out prioritize weaker attacks right? In fact, I'm sure FTilt does not have a hurt box on the fist.

Half of Bowser's attacks are intangible. Matters very little when you have characters that can wait patiently outside his range then rush in the moment after he commits to a move, grab him, and combo him for 50%.

They need to buff tough guy. Cuz I said so.

They need to buff it cause it's ass and actually hurts Bowser in some fights by sending him into "molasses mode".

@ S_B
Any specific buffs should be character specific and not general buffs. I personally think ganon is in a good spot now, and even if he wasnt he suffers from different issues than bowser or ddd.
Since this is a bowser thread, what does bowser need? What if his shell gaurd was buffed?

The biggest buff to Bowser would be a nerf to Shiek and Falcon.

I realize that Bowser has different issues than some heavies, but really, the biggest issue every heavy has is fighting ultra-fast characters that can stand out of their range and force them to play a guessing game as to what they're about to do (Falcon and Shiek being the worst offenders).

Throw out literally anything that doesn't land and they're going to close that gap, grab you, force you to the edge of the stage and try to edgeguard you. Thanks to a large hurtbox, they just get way, WAY too much from a single grab on a heavy character.

If I had to make a dream wish list of changes for Bowser, basically any or all changes from Project M's Bowser: cancelable down-B, old N-air with SA on it, SA on down-B, SA on dash attack, fortress to ledge, etc.

I particularly like that you can cancel grounded down-B: it gives Bowser a mobility buff without sacrificing side-B. I like moves that have multiple functions, as versatility is one of THE biggest reasons characters rise in tiers.

 

[Big-Cat]

Play footsies, bait them, go in, etc. That's how you deal with characters.

 

[S_B]

Play footsies, bait them, go in, etc. That's how you deal with characters.

Yes, you can do all of those things, but the problem facing heavies is the same reason Diddy was ultimately nerfed: he got too much of off a single grab (on the whole cast).

That's the same problem heavies face against these characters: one confirm = comboed for days, thus completely negating the weight advantage.

Either light, quick characters need to get less off of a grab on heavies or heavies need to get more off of the few confirms they do get.

 

[Big-Cat]

Or learn to DI.

 

[S_B]

Or learn to DI.

...Said every Diddy player who was against the nerf.

You might as well pray that your opponent can't read DI. It's really just as effective...

 

[Big-Cat]

The problem with Diddy was that those moves that were nerfed were too powerful on their own. UAir and FAir were stupid given their startup, range, and power.

If you can't Get those confirms or are too scared to go in, that's on you, not the game.

 

[redcometchar]

Yes, you can do all of those things, but the problem facing heavies is the same reason Diddy was ultimately nerfed: he got too much of off a single grab (on the whole cast).

That's the same problem heavies face against these characters: one confirm = comboed for days, thus completely negating the weight advantage.

Either light, quick characters need to get less off of a grab on heavies or heavies need to get more off of the few confirms they do get.

Heavy characters get no less off of confirms than the other mid tier characters. The top 8 ish characters are exceptions to this but they are just that: exceptions. The fact that the characters that are big and slow in this game don't have as many combo options as sheik and falcon isn't a problem that is isolated the these characters. Marth, Falco, Lucina, mii swordfighter, megaman, etc etc etc all have hardly better options than the heavies.

 

[S_B]

The problem with Diddy was that those moves that were nerfed were too powerful on their own. UAir and FAir were stupid given their startup, range, and power.

Exactly. Moves that were too easy to land were too rewarding for landing them.

The same thing happens with heavies and a number of characters. A single grab combos into 40-50%, thus negating the weight advantage entirely.

Heavy characters get no less off of confirms than the other mid tier characters. The top 8 ish characters are exceptions to this but they are just that: exceptions. The fact that the characters that are big and slow in this game don't have as many combo options as sheik and falcon isn't a problem that is isolated the these characters. Marth, Falco, Lucina, mii swordfighter, megaman, etc etc etc all have hardly better options than the heavies.

Then maybe the real problem here is that characters that can combo >>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone else.

Heavies just get ground up on the combo machine that much worse because they're so much easier to hit.

As I said earlier, it would be interesting to see where heavies fell on the tier list if these combo-heavy characters weren't available...

Granted, I'm not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE for characters to not rise above it without combos. Rosaluma is cited by ZeRo as one of the only real challengers to Shiek, and that's largely because luma gives her some AMAZING options for keeping opponents out, plus she has some incredible disjoints and only gets BETTER with customs...

 

[redcometchar]

Then maybe the real problem here is that characters that can combo >>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone else.

This is the appropriate conclusion, however I am against nerfing these characters. I would like to see the meta develop further first, but since new patches are inevitable with the coming with dlc characters, I would rather have the low tiers buffed. Nintendo hasn't seemed to keen on this though, *sigh*.