Heavy plus speed???

[EBS]

Not trying to b**** but there isnt any reason bowser should be pretty quick for his size and heavy his recovery times on most moves is god like and imo need to be slowed a bit

 

[Casual Souls]

Bowser is fine.

There is no rule that a large and heavy character can't be fast. Charizard is faster than Bowser and he's another example.

Bowser has a lot of endlag on some of his moves so I'm not sure what you're talking about. He's wide open if he misses a forward smash, flying slam, down air or back air.

 

[EBS]

Thats why i said most of his moves and hes a powerhouse and has speed nah that shouldnt be how it works bro play any other fighting game and see how slow the big guys are and im not mad i just dont see why bowser is so fast and strong but ganondorf is extremely slow but powerful which is how bowser should be

 

[Chandeelure]

Git gud.

Seriously, Bowser's moves are not fast, only his running speed.

 

[Casual Souls]

If Bowser's speed was nerfed he would be one of the worst characters in the game. I don't use him often in 1v1s much myself but he is already vulnerable to juggling and combos because of his size and average air speed.

Smash isn't a typical fighting game and Bowser doesn't follow the slow but strong archetype.

 

[Conn1496]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but... Bowser is canonically fast, and has been for a while... This change is more than welcome. Both as balance and aesthetic.

Donkey Kong isn't exactly slow either, and Charizard, another heavy character, is actually faster when running. Charizard even actually hits top 10, and Charizard actually has faster attacks too for the most part.

Complaining that Bowser is fast makes zero sense. It's not like Bowser is OP or anything, so I don't have a clue why this is a problem.

 

[MagiusNecros]

~Someone hasn't played Bowser's Inside Story~

 

[Cronoc]

Not trying to b**** but there isnt any reason bowser should be pretty quick for his size and heavy his recovery times on most moves is god like and imo need to be slowed a bit

If you ran into a good Bowser at locals or on for glory, take it as your opportunity to learn the matchup. Sometimes it takes hours before you figure out what you're doing wrong. Everything Bowser does is punishable on shield outside of his jabs or grabs (klaw included). And his jabs can be punished depending on the character. Complaining about Bowser is like complaining about Little Mac, it says much more about you than your opponent. He's better in this game than in other games, but he's not even top 10. You want to feel mad? Go to a local tournament and play a top ranked player in your region - and realize you're completely helpless. And it won't matter who they're playing. But just to be clear, they won't be playing Bowser.

 

[Captain Justice]

Because Bowser is so heavy, he is pretty easy to juggle. I have used some strings on a Bowser that brought him from zero to death. And yes, this was online.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

Just because Bowser is fast, doesn't mean he is free of the weaknesses that all heavies suffer from (large hurtbox, landing issues due to landing lag on aerials, predictable recovery that can be meteor smashed, etc.)
We already had a slow Bowser for years in Melee and Brawl. He was relegated to bottom tier. So he finally gets much needed improvements and now you're complaining he's too fast? He's definintely not top tier material and still has many of the same weaknesses he had before.

Just stop. If we're going to talk about overpowered crap, Fox's double jab can basically wobble several characters to the ledge where he can Dsmash/Usmash them to death. and there's NOTHING they can do about it except pray he whiffs.

 

[VeteranUnderdog]

If you think bowser is op with his speed you should see his custom side b.... lol

 

[Warlock*G]

For once in Smash Bros Bowser doesn't totally suck. Let's leave it that way.

 

[Duplighost]

Just because he is a strong and fast fighter doesn't make him overpowered or unfair. His attacks are slow and constantly leave him wide open, so his running compensates for that disadvantage.

 

[EBS]

I was never mad that bowser was op or whatever it just makes me mad that my favorite character in all of gaming is soooooooo slow (ganondorf) like i swear deedeedee is faster sometimes like what?

 

[Duplighost]

I was never mad that bowser was op or whatever it just makes me mad that my favorite character in all of gaming is soooooooo slow (ganondorf) like i swear deedeedee is faster sometimes like what?

Ganondorf may be slow, but he is extremely powerful. He also has fast attacks like his Side B and Down B that make up for that slowness. I don't see a need for Ganon to be a fast character in the first place, though. He's one of Smash's main powerhouses.

And I guess Dedede hit the gym or something, I don't know.

 

[EBS]

If you ran into a good Bowser at locals or on for glory, take it as your opportunity to learn the matchup. Sometimes it takes hours before you figure out what you're doing wrong. Everything Bowser does is punishable on shield outside of his jabs or grabs (klaw included). And his jabs can be punished depending on the character. Complaining about Bowser is like complaining about Little Mac, it says much more about you than your opponent. He's better in this game than in other games, but he's not even top 10. You want to feel mad? Go to a local tournament and play a top ranked player in your region - and realize you're completely helpless. And it won't matter who they're playing. But just to be clear, they won't be playing Bowser.

no it wasnt about losing to a bowser theyre easy to beat with someone like link or zero suit i was mainly complaining about bowser vs ganondorf in speed

Sorry to burst your bubble, but... Bowser is canonically fast, and has been for a while... This change is more than welcome. Both as balance and aesthetic.

Donkey Kong isn't exactly slow either, and Charizard, another heavy character, is actually faster when running. Charizard even actually hits top 10, and Charizard actually has faster attacks too for the most part.

Complaining that Bowser is fast makes zero sense. It's not like Bowser is OP or anything, so I don't have a clue why this is a problem.

i think your thinking more running when i said that and not air attacks and recovery time

 

[Cronoc]

no it wasnt about losing to a bowser theyre easy to beat with someone like link or zero suit i was mainly complaining about bowser vs ganondorf in speed

So because Ganondorf is slow, Bowser should be slower? Uh... I don't know what to say. I don't think you've thought this through.

 

[Dark Phazon]

I was never mad that bowser was op or whatever it just makes me mad that my favorite character in all of gaming is soooooooo slow (ganondorf) like i swear deedeedee is faster sometimes like what?

I main Ganondorf i play as him like 80% of the time. My 2nd main is DK

Imo all Ganon needs is seriously frigging more range on his grab...you can only grab someone if they are litreally touching Ganondorf.

I would rather him not have a speed buff because he would feel less like Ganon.
But if anything if its not too much to make him too good.

Abit less ending lag on FAir and or DAir would be extremely helpful.

Know how to play Ganon properly and you will do alot better i win like 80% of for glory games with him but yh...as soon as you comes across a very good ZSS/Yoshi/Rosalina/Pikachu
Your pretty much screwed

This is a video of me vs a good Falcon on for glory.


https://youtu.be/rrqQoMzhOgw

 

[Corgian]

Just stop. If we're going to talk about overpowered crap, Fox's double jab can basically wobble several characters to the ledge where he can Dsmash/Usmash them to death. and there's NOTHING they can do about it except pray he whiffs.

Duck, about a quarter of the cast can break out of Fox's jab combo. It's a good move, and one of the easiest jab combos, but Fox is still limited by his linear, predictable recovery as well as his weight distribution of being very light and the fastest of fast fallers. Fox is a good character, but I really don't see any character in the cast that's worth meriting this kind of whiny thread.

If you think bowser is op with his speed you should see his custom side b.... lol

Bowser now has one of the best approach tools in the game. That being said, all this did, if anything, was maintain his placement on the tier-list when the meta shifted to customs. The Dash Slash has made him a more fair character, instead of making him game breaking.

@ EBS , You've come onto a mid-tier character's board to whine about why your lower tier character isn't doing too well. Yes, neither of our characters are going to be placing top 8 at any majors, most likely. So what? Play the game, and if you don't like your main, play a new main. This game has a massive cast; you have plenty of of options. But this kind of vapid complaining offers no constructive benefit to anyone. If you don't like the idea of faster heavies, go play one of those other fighting games you were talking about that abide by the way you believe a fighting game should be. Smash has never been—and never will be—a standard fighting game. Thanks.

 

[EBS]

Duck, about a quarter of the cast can break out of Fox's jab combo. It's a good move, and one of the easiest jab combos, but Fox is still limited by his linear, predictable recovery as well as his weight distribution of being very light and the fastest of fast fallers. Fox is a good character, but I really don't see any character in the cast that's worth meriting this kind of whiny thread.



Bowser now has one of the best approach tools in the game. That being said, all this did, if anything, was maintain his placement on the tier-list when the meta shifted to customs. The Dash Slash has made him a more fair character, instead of making him game breaking.

@ EBS , You've come onto a mid-tier character's board to whine about why your lower tier character isn't doing too well. Yes, neither of our characters are going to be placing top 8 at any majors, most likely. So what? Play the game, and if you don't like your main, play a new main. This game has a massive cast; you have plenty of of options. But this kind of vapid complaining offers no constructive benefit to anyone. If you don't like the idea of faster heavies, go play one of those other fighting games you were talking about that abide by the way you believe a fighting game should be. Smash has never been—and never will be—a standard fighting game. Thanks.

And how do you get a tier list involved? Idc if there is one nor do i care what they say when it comes to smash 4 because anyone can win there were better characters in melee and brawl but in this one i can beat fox with deedeedee or olimar and good ones at that so there goes your tier list argument and what i really love about the boards are people like you who even when there is legit bs going on you guys are like no its fine its fine theres nothing wrong nothing needs to change blah blah blah lol its annoying and makes you look pretty stupid and to the other people who gave me actual responses instead of defending the game thank you

 

[Duplighost]

And how do you get a tier list involved? Idc if there is one nor do i care what they say when it comes to smash 4 because anyone can win there were better characters in melee and brawl but in this one i can beat fox with deedeedee or olimar and good ones at that so there goes your tier list argument and what i really love about the boards are people like you who even when there is legit bs going on you guys are like no its fine its fine theres nothing wrong nothing needs to change blah blah blah lol its annoying and makes you look pretty stupid and to the other people who gave me actual responses instead of defending the game thank you

Please use a period to separate sentences. Please.

It is difficult enough to even respond to this paragraph-long run-on as it is, so the lack of consistent grammar is actually painful... but I'll try my best.

And how do you get a tier list involved? Idc if there is one nor do i care what they say when it comes to smash 4 because anyone can win there were better characters in melee and brawl but in this one i can beat fox with deedeedee or olimar and good ones at that so there goes your tier list argument ...

I think you're trying to say that tier lists are useless and should be nonexistent. More or less, this is a valid argument. I personally believe they do matter, but only to a certain extent. Like you clarified above, a better player that more effectively pursues an opponent with more tricks and mixups can usually have the upper hand, regardless of the fighter they are using. However, a character like Diddy Kong or Sheik (assumed at high-tier) has a better chance of winning, but the capability to win depends solely on the player's skill level. Tier lists should be perceived as a rough outline of what a character's advantages and chance of victory are, not a dead solid list of who is better than another.

... and what i really love about the boards are people like you who even when there is legit bs going on you guys are like no its fine its fine theres nothing wrong nothing needs to change blah blah blah lol its annoying and makes you look pretty stupid and to the other people who gave me actual responses instead of defending the game ...

Sorry, but can you clarify what "legit bs" is? I do not think there is anything too dramatically inferior taking place, otherwise a moderator would have handled the situation. Everything stated in these boards (for the most part) is valid and should be taken into consideration. We are a community, and we should work together. Since were are in one unity, we should not call each other "stupid" for that matter.

 

[EBS]

Please use a period to separate sentences. Please.

It is difficult enough to even respond to this paragraph-long run-on as it is, so the lack of consistent grammar is actually painful... but I'll try my best.



I think you're trying to say that tier lists are useless and should be nonexistent. More or less, this is a valid argument. I personally believe they do matter, but only to a certain extent. Like you clarified above, a better player that more effectively pursues an opponent with more tricks and mixups can usually have the upper hand, regardless of the fighter they are using. However, a character like Diddy Kong or Sheik (assumed at high-tier) has a better chance of winning, but the capability to win depends solely on the player's skill level. Tier lists should be perceived as a rough outline of what a character's advantages and chance of victory are, not a dead solid list of who is better than another.



Sorry, but can you clarify what "legit bs" is? I do not think there is anything too dramatically inferior taking place, otherwise a moderator would have handled the situation. Everything stated in these boards (for the most part) is valid and should be taken into consideration. We are a community, and we should work together. Since were are in one unity, we should not call each other "stupid" for that matter.

Not in the boards man the game. And my bad il try to use proper grammar while talking next time, didnt think it was that hard to read my bad

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Insult to a person's intelligence on the boards is not conductive to the thread topic and will not be tolerated. If you take issue with a particular member, then take it to PM or contact a mod (sup, buddy). Further posts of this nature will be mercilessly deleted.

@ EBS You will always face objections to changes on this board because the majority of us believe that Bowser has experienced needed buffs and QoL changes. No one here disagrees strongly with the idea of Ganon receiving some buffs, so the remaining issue is why you are so strongly attached to slow heavies being the norm in fighting games when Sm4sh has created an environment conductive to both "lightning bruiser" and "mighty glacier" archetypes existing hand-in-hand (especially in a doubles environment). Would you mind elaborating why you feel there must be an iron law?

 

[Duplighost]

Insult to a person's intelligence on the boards is not conductive to the thread topic and will not be tolerated. If you take issue with a particular member, then take it to PM or contact a mod (sup, buddy). Further posts of this nature will be mercilessly deleted.

My bad, man. As it is no excuse to the issue, I was not in the best of moods yesterday, and over exaggerated my frustration. It's just I felt that the manner in which he was claiming his points seemed a bit informal, but I apologize for any inconvenience my rash remark may have caused. I take full responsibility for my unnecessary actions.

Again, sorry @ EBS , I hope you can excuse my behavior, as I had no intent of disregarding your intelligence in any shape or form. I sent you a message on your account to hopefully clear everything up.

 

[S_B]

And how do you get a tier list involved?

Tier lists (at least the good ones) are built from tournament winnings, and tournament winnings tell us everything.

Bowser still isn't great in his current state. His weaknesses are glaring enough that Shiek makes Bowser sausage out of him and you don't see Bowsers taking major tournaments (or even coming close, really).

I wouldn't mind if Bowser was slower, so long as he had oodles of super armor in lieu of speed. In fact, just give us Project M's Bowser and I'd be happy.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Just add PM's super armor and buff tough guy.

Also make autoguard on the shell all the time because I said so. I just want to back up and say No to every projectile ever.

 

[Duplighost]

Tier lists (at least the good ones) are built from tournament winnings, and tournament winnings tell us everything.

How so? I see what you're saying, but I don't see why tournament winnings primarily would give us an accurate tier list. This is quite trivial, but if a player was never to use (or rarely used) Bowser Jr. in a tournament, then it doesn't represent where he should be placed on the tier list. I think tournaments don't offer a wide spectrum of a character's potential if they are never being used or are being used in the wrong way. I agree, however, in the point that tournaments should influence the tier list.

Bowser still isn't great in his current state. His weaknesses are glaring enough that Shiek makes Bowser sausage out of him and you don't see Bowsers taking major tournaments (or even coming close, really).

Ah, this is another reason why Bowser is assumed so low on the tier list. Since he is seldom being used competitively, it makes people think he is just not a good character. If Bowser were to win a major tournament, everyone would perceive him as a better character as a whole due to a professional winning with him.

I wouldn't mind if Bowser was slower, so long as he had oodles of super armor in lieu of speed. In fact, just give us Project M's Bowser and I'd be happy.

I agree completely. The Project M Bowser gave him a lot more buffs that offered him a more sturdy character. Has Nintendo ever acknowledged/taken ideas from Project M?

 

[S_B]

How so? I see what you're saying, but I don't see why tournament winnings primarily would give us an accurate tier list.

I'm not going to claim for a moment that it's perfect, but it's sadly the best we have to go on, really.

Tournament winnings are at least solid results, and the competitive scene can argue technical aspects for literally ever but tournaments are where rubber meets road.

The only failing of tier lists is that they don't account for player skill. We have to assume that most players are similarly matched at the highest competitive scene but even that isn't true.

Still, other than that, we don't have anything solid to go on so we kinda have to look to tiers.

Ah, this is another reason why Bowser is assumed so low on the tier list. Since he is seldom being used competitively, it makes people think he is just not a good character. If Bowser were to win a major tournament, everyone would perceive him as a better character as a whole due to a professional winning with him.

Like I said, where rubber meets road is where people are going to look.

The biggest thing Bowz has against him is that there are a few characters (like Shiek) who kinda invalidate his existence (and he's not alone in that regard).

I agree completely. The Project M Bowser gave him a lot more buffs that offered him a more sturdy character. Has Nintendo ever acknowledged/taken ideas from Project M?

I think they might have, actually, though specific examples aren't coming to mind just this moment.

The one thing I REALLY would love from PM is Bowser's cancelable bomb. You can use it to get to the height of the leap, then fair/uair, etc. out of it. Makes it a GREAT closing tool for enemies you've sent airborne and a great chase tool in general.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

Duck, about a quarter of the cast can break out of Fox's jab combo. It's a good move, and one of the easiest jab combos, but Fox is still limited by his linear, predictable recovery as well as his weight distribution of being very light and the fastest of fast fallers. Fox is a good character, but I really don't see any character in the cast that's worth meriting this kind of whiny thread.

Fair enough.
I didn't say that Fox overall is OP... it's just ridiculous he has this option. And just because 1/4 of the characters can break out easily, doesn't say anything about fairness for the rest of them.
As a Bowser Jr. user, who cannot eat through jabs like Tough Guy lets Bowser do, and who cannot escape AT ALL, it personally pisses me off that I need to play against Fox differently than I do against anybody else out of fear of that stupid preschool jab combo.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Tournaments only use tiers to place characters based on usage. And the winners of a tournament using those most used characters are why some are leagues ahead over others.

 

[S_B]

Tournaments only use tiers to place characters based on usage. And the winners of a tournament using those most used characters are why some are leagues ahead over others.

Yup.

And this is why the metagame generally takes a while to evolve.

FOTM characters are all the rage until someone spends some time in the lab and really, REALLY figures out how to get the most out of character X, which can then hypothetically shake up the meta. Marth in melee is a great example of that. I believe it was Ken who first delved into Marth and discovered just how strong he was.

Thankfully, Nintendo is balancing the game now, which means that we'll see jank characters dealt with much faster and we're in 0 danger of ever finding ourselves in another MK situation.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I seriously believe people are sleeping on Zard.

Or I just have bias for the heavies.

 

[Dark Phazon]

I seriously believe people are sleeping on Zard.

Or I just have bias for the heavies.

Yh i i didnt think Zard was all that...i thought he was the most lackluster out of the heavies untill i matches RadianB and he 3 stocked 3 times with him...
Zard is absolutely insane...his flamethrower is crazy gimp king.

Zard is very good...im not sure who are the best heavies but i think its probly goes

1.Zard
2. DDD
3. Bowser
4. Ganondorf
5. Not sure about DK and Ike...
Although DK is my 2nd main i cant win serious games with hik except if i play with him in a way were i feel like i am taking the mic out of him and dont want to play as him if to win hard matches just spam backair...ground pound from far and spinning kong..i wanna

 

[Cassius.]

Nah, bowser is the best heavy character in this game, free

With customs dk is probably better since its early game, a year down the line I'm not sure how I would call it.

But (custom) bowser and custom dk are the best there's no real competition

I do think zard is better than current reviews of him, though. When you play legitimate trash for six years you begin to understand what truly makes something bad in a game

Charisse (thanks for the autocorrect, IPhone!) is cool though

 

[Dark Phazon]

Nah, bowser is the best heavy character in this game, free

With customs dk is probably better since its early game, a year down the line I'm not sure how I would call it.

But (custom) bowser and custom dk are the best there's no real competition

I do think zard is better than current reviews of him, though. When you play legitimate trash for six years you begin to understand what truly makes something bad in a game

Charisse (thanks for the autocorrect, IPhone!) is cool though

Bro DDD is a freaking monster...
So.much priority and range
Amazing recovery..

Its difficult..
To list em...

Maybe it goes
1.Bowser
2.DDD
3.Zard
4. Ganondorf
5???

I will forever main Ganondorf though as my #1 main his power is unmatched pretty much all his moves can kill and is extremely fun and satisfying to play as
But i been juggling my 2nd main from DK to Bowser..

Although bowser is the best he has ever been..he often feels really boring to play as...because he has alot of end lag on like all his moves so he has like little to no combos..unlike DK who can do so many thing and is the meteor smash king.

just wish DK had faster fall speed and didnt jump as high...faster fall speed is enough..he is abit too floaty imo..wish he felt in the air like he did in melee.
Also wish his F_Air has less end lag.

Also another thing which kinda puts me off Bowser is i kinda get a vibe that he is abit like little mac...not exzactly a noob char but a char that someone picks just to win if you destroyed them with who ever in the first match.

Has happened many times on for glory i destroy someone as Ganon and they switch to Bowser or DDD.

Damn...Ganon vs DDD is a very hard matchup for Ganon...funny thing is when i am any heavyweight i find it very difficult against DDD...you just cant punish that guy....

 

[Cassius.]

D3's airspeed is REALLY bad. That is something that's actually really significant and sets him apart from the other heavy characters. If he didn't have NAir as an option to fight back or 3 airborne jumps(?), he would be stuck in combos for days. His fall speed isn't as bad as say species or Falcon, but he can't move lmao. He can barely escape ****.

Charizard's air speed is mediocre as well.

Bowser has a lot of end lag on moves that you have no business using in a given situation.

I guess Bowser is a good pick for a really low, entry level of play. I don't know. And combos do not make the character. If you can't play neutral well, you're not going to get any of those combos off.

I completely believe Bowser's neutral is different from every other character's and is actually a really good way to learn how to play Smash 4 and make every hit count, because he's not garbage and can force situations (albeit a few) based on positioning. Other heavy characters can't really scare a good portion of the cast. Yeah, they're strong, and you'll die if you don't know what you're doing or if you're an idiot, but you have no business letting them in (this is in a non-customs meta, of course. You guys know me =_=) Their frame data is mediocre, especially by this game's standards where like 45% of the cast has access to moves under 5 frames. And their dash speed is probably just as bad lol

Bowser's frame data and dash speed is nothing special, but a lot of the stages we play on are really small, and he's big as ****. He can close in on you or stay in a good safe-zone.

A lot of younger and newer players don't know much about that or how to optimize their punish game. You can't play Bowser well if you don't know that.

 

[MrEh]

Bowser's neutral game is the closest you can get to actually playing an actual fighting game.

It sounds ridiculous until you realize how Bowser even functions in the first place.

 

[Dark Phazon]

What do you guys think of DK?

 

[Cassius.]

Without customs, meh

With customs, gimmicks

 

[MrEh]

DK is pretty trash without customs.

With customs he's ok. Cyclone is ridiculous even if you understand how it works and how to play around it.